Greenscreen spill suppresion.

Discussion in 'Fan Films, Fan Audio & SciFi 3D' started by PixelMagic, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Timbo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 1
    Pixel Do u have after effects..?? If so I can give you some tips on using spill suppression in that, I don't use composite wizard or Primatte so I can't really help you with those. Maybe Lord Rive can give you some help...

    I didn't do anything special with my key, I didn't have a lot of time to work on it, I just finished my final, so when I get home later I'll see if I can make a more visual explanation of what I did. Basically I made 3 separate masks, 1 for your hair, 2nd your face, and 3rd for the back of your neck with clothing. You also could try doing a color correction and adjusting the hue/saturation...

    Tim
  2. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah, I have After Effects. It's just that I do all my live action compositing (greenscreening) in Commotion. But I still use After Effects for my 3D compositing. In my second attempt, I didn't use different masks. That just all one key. I'll try different layers like you did. Maybe that will help it look better. I'll pust my thrid try sometime later today.
  3. Lord_Rive TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    The key is definitely "Hue/Saturation". For my crack at it, I used only AE standard (not the production bundle), and no third party plug-ins.
  4. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Dang, Rive, you used Standard to do that? I couldn't greenscreen with Standard to save my life. Dave, if you don't mind, I'd be curious to see what you could do with the CTK, actually, also the same software I used. Try Primatte and Composite Wizard. You don't have to if you don't want. I am just curious what you could do with them.
  5. Elan-Rai RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2001
    star 4
    Wow, Rive. That's impressive! What settings did you use in AE to achieve that key? You used a lightwrap on that didn't you?
  6. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, Dave did use lightwrap. And some newbies might say "But there is no lightwrap feature in After Effects Standard or Produciton' That's TRUE. BUT, there are always ways to fake lightwrap. Dave thanks he is the only one that has figured it out, but OH NO, I have too! Ha ha, well, I watched the Composite ToolKit tutorials on DvGarage.com anyway. BUT STILL, I figured it out! Still, lightwraping in Composite Wizard is easier. That reminds me, to all those compositing CG spaceships into a live action shot, PLEASE Lightwrap it. It looks tons better, trust me.

    P.S. Now that I think about it, newbies are more likely to say, "What is lightwraping? Some sort of texture map?"
  7. Lord_Rive TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Elan: The technique I used was a little complicated... There's a method that you can use to assemble a Color Difference Keyer out of other filters in the Standard version of AE -- that's how I did the initial key (it's actually superior to the CDK, which, when you know how to use it, is very capable by itself... Alex Lindsay showed me the "build your own CDK", and it kicks butt -- extremely flexible). The spill was handled with the "hue/saturation" filter. Very slight grain was added to the background, and the whole thing was blurred one pixel with an adjustment layer on top of everything else. As far as light wrap goes...

    PixelMagic: I'd actually say that the Composite Wizard method is the one that's "faking" light wrap. ;) And, believe me, I hope I'm not the only one that knows how to do it -- as you said, it's on the dvGarage free tutorials in more than adequate detail to figure it out. :) That said, I rarely use the CW Light Wrap anymore, except for relatively simple situations. I find that it's too limited when it comes to selectively wrapping areas. As an example, take the bg in your shot: the terrain is much brighter on the right side of your face than it is on the left, or under your chin. Consequently, you'd get a stronger "bloom" on the right side. Building light wrap allows you to cut up the wrap in a more straightforward fashion than CW's Light Wrap does, so that you can have each area wrap with an appropriate (and selective) amount of brightness. For this shot, I did three separate "Light Wraps", each one with it's own level of transparency.

    There are other big disadvantages to the CW Light Wrap that you run into as shots become more complex...

    That's a bit convoluted, but hopefully you see where I'm going with it...
  8. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Wow, Dave, three lightwraps. Sounds too complicated to me. I'm lazy, so I will stick with CW...lol.
  9. DaftMaul Former TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Feb 18, 2001
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    I used that Composite Toolkit tutorial for light wrapping one of the shots from the Storm Ahead trailer (where the camera zooms in on Nikki) and I was absolutely amazed at how it basically saved that shot (which looked a real mess beforehand)

    I remember when I was raving on about the dvkeyer Lord Rive calmly stated 'There is more to the Composite toolkit than just that keyer' and I was like Yeah, yeah, but this keyer is AWESOME!!! Now having gone through a few more of those (great) tutorials I realise that he was so right, and that there are so many different ways to attack a given problem. And to think it is only the beta of the finished Composite toolkit product.



  10. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Well, the reason I started doing these tests yesturday is that I've never done successful greenscreening with Mini-DV footage. This attempt yesturday is the closest I've ever gotten. Anyway, the reason I need to learn is because a new scene has been written for my fanfilm in which I engage in a speeder chase over Hoth. A bounty hunter (played by my lovely finace, Sarah) pulls up next to me on a speeder and tries to stop me from uncovering the soft drink I am suppose to recover. Hopefully it will be a thrilling scene.
  11. Obi-Timbo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 1
    I definitely agree with Lord Rive, once I adjusted the hue/saturation levels(Master hue -12, Master Saturation -18) I was able to pull a much better key using just the Dvmatte keyer though...(I'm waiting for the complete CTK to be released to learn about this building your own CDK). I didn't take the time to adjust the darker part on the right side of your face to be lighter though.

    I believe that it is very possible to pull a good key with just the standard after effects tools if you know how to use them properly. One thing I also use after spill suppression is I do a "curves" adjustment(effects->adjust-> curves), what this does is you can try to adjust the color to match the orginal keyed value.

    I made two new keys of your picture one without trying to color match you to the background and the other was to color match you to the background.

    Tim

    P.S. DAMN!!! Dave you are the compositing king...no 3rd party plug ins...standard version..."Impressive...most impressive."

    Oh and the pics can be seen at:
    Pixels Greenscreen Shot


  12. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Wow, Obi, those shots look great. I sure wish you were the lead greenscreen compositer in my fanfilm instead of me...ha ha.
  13. Maul316 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2001
    star 3
    Here's my attempt:

    [image=http://server40.hypermart.net/demaul/pixelcomposite.jpg]

    No third party plugins. BTW Rive, the hue/saturation worked nicely, and better than the built in spill surpressor.
  14. Macho Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2001
    star 4
    so now I have to read the PDF's ??? I guess I'll have to do something when I goto SF...btw you'll be up there rive for VES right?
  15. DaftMaul Former TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    Due to Macho's sneaky edit my post no longer makes any sense.
    (Didn't make a lot of sense before hand to be fair...) :)
  16. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    Maul 316, I haven't seen you around these here parts in ages. Good to see you again. You don't remember me, but I remember you because of you excellent bluescreening. Good job.
  17. Maul316 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks man. I have just been refining my skills over the last 6 months and haven't had time to post because of work/school. I do plan to do some fanfilm work over the summer though, perhaps a quick one. I have seen some of your tests and tutorials. Quite impressive. Keep up the good work.
  18. Lord_Rive TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Wow, Dave, three lightwraps. Sounds too complicated to me. I'm lazy, so I will stick with CW...lol.

    I don't think it's any different than, say, rendering out a separate specular pass in 3D. Basically, it's just taking one light wrap, cutting it up, and applying it with different transparency values. It's a lot more complicated to do using CW... One other limitation with CW Light Wrap is that the plug-in fails to recognize instances where the background plate has been moved (or is moving)...
  19. PixelMagic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 5
    "I don't think it's any different than, say, rendering out a separate specular pass in 3D."

    Yo, foo'! Why you gotta be bringin' my multipassin' into this? If I say I'm lazy, then I'm lazy DANG IT! Ok, seriously, I put more effort into my 3D. I guess because 3D is SO much harder to make look realistic. I'll be dang glad when computers are fast enough to render out Global Illumination at maybe 10 seconds per frame...ha ha. It's just the lightwrap is so sutble, I see no need to get all fancy with it. But that's just me, so don't take offence. BUT, I will tell you that now instead of rendering out 5 different 3D passes, I've cut it down to 2 or 3...HA HA! Instead of doing specular blooms using a blurred specular layer copy, I just use the glow filter in After Effects. Bascially my Multipassing technique follows very closely with the tutorial in the "After Effects In Production" book.
  20. DarkATX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2000
    star 4
    Wow :eek:
    I go to bed only to wake up and see this thread just take off...I finally figured out what Lord Rive has been relating to in faking light wrapping ;)
    Thanks for the earlier compliment Pixel :D
    Got to see if I'm on the ball by writing up another tutorial.
    By the way, there's great stuff everyone's posting up here...
  21. Lord_Rive TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Ok, seriously, I put more effort into my 3D. I guess because 3D is SO much harder to make look realistic.

    Funny -- I totally (if respectfully) disagree with that statement. When I watch films, it is most often the compositing issues that betray effects in my eyes. Scenes that are totally CG often disguise their "CG-ness" because the entire shot is CG -- there's nothing within the frame to compare it to. The major issues that I've had with many films in the last year, especially Lord of the Rings, have had to do with compositing problems.

    It's just the lightwrap is so sutble, I see no need to get all fancy with it.

    Speaking of subtle, wasn't it you that wrote the tutorial with the Battle Droid in the park, and you talked about the attenuation pass? ;) Now, for this particular shot it isn't as great an issue, but for background plates that have larger variances in their luminescence values, it is critical. For example, in Duality, all of the composites had huge variances: in the temple, everything was dark, except for the light sources. Outside, there was an extremely bright sky along with a darkened platform. Standard light wrapping would have created bright outlines, separating the composited figures from the background, rather than marrying them into it -- actually giving them a glowing edge. The light wrap had to be applied in multiple passes for the effect to be successful.

    Instead of doing specular blooms using a blurred specular layer copy, I just use the glow filter in After Effects.

    Depends on what you want to do, I guess. :) There are a lot of very cool effects that can be done using the specular pass (as I'm sure you know)... At Guerrilla FX John Knoll used a directional blur on the specular pass for one of his shots and it looked so damn cool... I've applied it here to an unfinished Terminator skull that I modeled and textured a while back for an as-yet uncompleted little movie I was doing for my son. The subject isn't as appropriate as what Mr. Knoll was using it for (the Apollo Lunar Lander, with all of it's chrome and gold foil), but you get the idea.

    Bascially my Multipassing technique follows very closely with the tutorial in the "After Effects In Production" book.

    Alex Lindsay wrote that chapter... I'm flying to Montreal with him in a couple of weeks -- I'll let him know you approve. :)
  22. Gardulo Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 3
    Your Coming to Montreal ??? wicked man I live here and its great yeah

    Montreal rocks more and more movies are filmed here cause our money is half of yours yahooooooo


    uhuummm
  23. Maul316 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2001
    star 3
    I'm thinking of making a tutorial on my lightwrap method which works quite well I think. Rive, I'd be interested to see your method in detail also.
  24. Lord_Rive TFN Fan Films Staff

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 4
    Your Coming to Montreal ???

    Yup. :) Steve (Darth Blight) Muraoka and I are flying up to meet Alex there on the 17th. We'll be there most of the week... It'll be my first time there -- been to Toronto and London (Ontario), but I've never been to Montreal. Plus, it'll be my first time in Canada as a citizen (I got my dual citizenship last year... Mom's from Vancouver. :D )

    Rive, I'd be interested to see your method in detail also.

    Ah, for that you have to buy the Composite Toolkit. ;)

    Or, you can watch the tutorials on the dvGarage website. They give enough information to figure out how to do light wrap. :)
  25. t-toe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 1
    I'm probably going to sound like quite the newbie with this post, but I have a problem with greenscreening too. I'm using After Effects Production Bundle. Right now I'm having trouble with hair.

    Basically, I have spikey, semi-long hair, and when I try to key it out there are flickers around the edges. No amount of Matte Chockers will help it.

    Any clue as to how I might fix this? (If you need more info, I'll be glad to provide it.)
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