Saga Grey Jedi Code

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by PadawanGussin, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. DBPirate Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2015
    star 3
    Grey Jedi do not officially exist in the canon. As others have stated, there have been Jedi who've walked away, but they have not formed their own organization or code and called themselves Grey Jedi. Personally, I'd just prefer that they existed as just Force-users and not given themselves a name. Grey Jedi's a bit of a strange title in my opinion.
  2. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I stand corrected. I recall first seeing it in BioWare's KotOR, but admittedly I'm not that versed in EU history.

    People who have made the choice to leave simply left. I'm not sure why would they prevent someone from leaving the Order. Perhaps not many people left precisely because the path of selflessness and the whole purpose of being a Jedi was understood and accepted as the right thing to do.
  3. Gamiel Force Ghost

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  4. Outsourced Jedi Knight

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  5. DBPirate Jedi Knight

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  6. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

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    All stories really begin as someone's fanfic.
  7. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    Thanks for your reply.

    I do wonder, not so mych with seasoned masters or Knights, how the departure of a yoyng adult would be handled.

    Imagine a rebellious teen with lightsaber training and no guidelines.

    Anakin , tho a teen was a bit of a special case and not the norm.

    Would younger Padawans be returned home if they choose not to continue in the Order?
  8. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    So, if someone still had all the powers and abilities of a Jedi, but just rejected the formal rules and regulations of the formal organization, are they still Jedi by definition? Are they former Jedi? Are they independent Jedi? Can you only be a Jedi if you formally agree with the rules and regs, or do you just have to have your heart in the right place? Can a Jedi follow their own path, as the Force illuminates it, or must they be subject to the dictates of a formally selected Council? Are there different denominations of Jedi, like, say, one that goes along with the general views, but allows marriage? Or one that rejects the notion of a separate "temple" and prefers living closer to the populace, throughout the galaxy without a "home base"? Can an organization that is said to embrace life itself in all its forms and the energy that links all life together be truly delineated according to hard and fast rules?

    Just asking...
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  9. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    Really good questions here.

    In certain faiths you are always considered to ne a part of that faith regardless of your personal views a good example of this are the orthodox Jews who consider anyone born to a Jewish mother to be a Jew no matter if that person wants to be or not.

    I suspect that the Jedi are a bit more relaxed in that regard.

    In one of the E U books Luke had people leaving the Order by choice leave their lightsaber behind, but I cant remember the title.

    Although I think some were allowed to keep their Saber on a case by case basis.
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  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    In the Dark Nest Trilogy - when Luke says that a Jedi cannot serve two masters (the Force, and some other cause like One's People) - and insists on Jedi making a choice - stay and devote oneself wholly to the Order, or go) - Tenel Ka says that, as a Queen, she must serve her people first - and offers to leave the saber behind.

    Luke insists on her keeping the saber - in order to defend herself, and as a reminder that she had earned the title of Jedi Knight.

    So, even if leaving the saber behind was standard, Luke sometimes made exceptions.

    That said - in the same series when dealing with a Jedi he has decided no longer qualifies (due to their behaviour) - he says "You are no longer fit to carry the saber" and takes it (or possibly destroys it?).

    "I'll just make a new one."
    "I know. And I'll take that one away, too."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 11, 2017
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  11. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Of course not. If one rejects what defines a Jedi, they are not Jedi. Force powers are not exclusive to Jedi.

    The right place being...? Everyone believes their heart to be in the right place.

    The Council doesn't dictate one's path. They dictate assignments and proceedings within the Order.

    No.

    Huh?! The temple is not a home. It serves as headquarters, school, and base of operations. Most Jedi are out in the galaxy on missions, serving the people of the Republic.

    Define 'hard and fast rules'. The rules, principles morals and tenets they have is what defines them as opposed to everyone else. You can live by your own rules and principles, simply not as a Jedi because that's not what Jedi do.
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  12. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5

    First, I thought the Force and one's connection to it defined a Jedi, not a set of rules.

    Next, the Council does dictate the path of a Jedi. Who gets to be trained? Who gets to train them? What is taught? Where do you go and what do you do when you get there? Who do the Jedi help, who gets passed along to someone else, and who gets left alone? And, in the end, who gets to run the Republic?

    Next, the Temple is the home base, the clubhouse. Jedi live there, go out on a job, and come back. What I'm wondering is, can a Jedi go someplace else, and stay there? They follow the Code and are a guardian of peace and justice, but they confine themselves to one planet or one community. Instead of being a temporary occupant, they are the friendly neighborhood Jedi, like the local cop, doctor, or teacher.

    Finally, by your standard, one of the big defining moments of ROTJ is wrong. Luke achieves his Knighthood when he decides he won't follow the Dark Side. He won't kill a defenseless enemy, even though both sides want him to. He won't take the life of a villain, just to take his place. He's going to follow the Light, even unto his own death, and let go of himself, rather than his father. But, he doesn't vow to follow the rules and regs, as defined by either Yoda or Palpatine. He becomes a Jedi in his heart, where it really matters. And that's when the good guys start to win.
  13. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Everyone is connected to the Force. Some are more innately attuned than others. That by itself doesn't make one a Jedi. Being a Jedi is following a set of tenets, morals and rules. You need to be taughted and trained to be one.

    One's path is not necessarily being a Jedi. They dictate what assignments you do as a Jedi.

    Those are internal Jedi affairs and are appropriately decided by, yes, the Jedi.

    It's not up to the Jedi to decide who gets to run the Republic, but to its citizens.

    The Jedi go where they are needed, not where you want them to stay. Their numbers are already so small and you want them to stay in one place that they don't need to be?

    When did the Jedi want him to kill a defenseless enemy?

    Which of the Jedi rules did he not follow? To strike an unarmed man is not the Jedi way, as stated in the movies.

    The good guys don't start to win because of Luke's sacrifice. And Luke sticks to the Jedi way and rules. He refuses to strike an unarmed man. He refuses to give into the dark side. He's completely selfless, ready to give up his own life than to fall to the dark side. Those are all Jedi tenets. And it's those tenets that define the Jedi and makes them who they are. Luke followed them, he didn't discard them. And he was asked to pass on those same rules and teachings.
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  14. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    One has to wonder tho why Luke did not immediately turn his full attention to the Emperor once Vader eas down.

    Instead of facing the greater threat to the Galaxy he disarmed, not being sure how his father would react.

    Could the more moral choice have been to engage Palpitine and the pure evil he represents, defeat him, then work to reconnect with his injured father ?
  15. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Luke is not there to face the Emperor. With or without lightsaber, he's no match for him. He knows it.
  16. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    Okay, first, in ROTS, the Jedi made plans to remove Palpatine, the legally appointed Supreme Chancellor, and replace him with themselves, until they alone decided that the emergency had passed and it was OK to let the Senate be in charge. They were going to do this without the assistance, consent or knowledge of the Senate, the judicial authorities, or the populace. And I find it difficult to believe the Jedi, once in that position, would stop with Palpatine and not move against anyone else they believed to be corrupt.
    This brings up a point: if the Jedi had managed to go through with this, would the whole order go along with such a massive breach of the Code? Would they object? Would they be expelled for disagreeing with the Council over such a matter of law and conscience? Would they cease to be Jedi?

    Next, if the Jedi are so small in numbers, why are they in charge of armies and leading troops? Aren't there more than enough officers and non-coms to do the job? Why can they be spared for this, but not for looking after a community of regular people where a need can't be solved or addressed over a mere few days?

    Next, Palpatine wanted Vader dead, because Luke would be a better apprentice. Kenobi and Yoda wanted Vader dead, because they believed that was the only way to win the war with the Dark Side. Remember, Kenobi said Luke's refusal to kill his father meant the Emperor wins, and Yoda said Luke must "conquer" Vader and Palpatine. It's doubtful "conquer" means anything other than "kill". So, Luke rejects both notions; he won't take Vader's life, but be willing to sacrifice his own, instead.

    And the first part of the good guys' true victory is Luke's stand. He won't play by Palpatine's rules, and won't give in to temptation. But he also won't give up on his father, and behave as though whatever good he felt in him doesn't matter. He put aside both Sith teachings and the PT Jedi's rules, and followed the Force and compassion. Again, it's the heart of a Jedi that matters most. And that inspired the next part of the victory: Ani returning to his senses and tossing Palpatine to his well-deserved finish, even though I'm sure he knew he wouldn't survive. He put aside his attachment to himself, and moved to put a stop to the evil he'd been part of. Which leads to the third part of the victory: a rudderless Imperial force getting pummeled and forced to retreat.
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  17. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    As Obi Wan said to Vader ,in many ways the Jedi had become what 5hey were sworn to defeat.

    What is brilliant about the prequels is that over many years even well intentioned Masters such as Mace had become anethitised to where the Jedi on the whole were heading. They simply could not see out of the box.

    In many ways the Jedi really fefeated themselves with Palip pushing them over the edge of the cliff the Jedi had found on thier own.
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  18. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No, they didn't. One of them said that if he doesn't give up his emergency powers after the emergency is over (which is what he promised), he should be removed from office. Why? Well, that seems pretty obvious and shouldn't be controversial. How? It's not said. The senate itself would have an interest in that.

    It's also said that they would have to take charge in order to keep the peace during the interim. Not take executive powers.

    Quite a lot of speculation not supported by the movie.

    I don't.

    How does one thing exclude the other?

    Are there?

    Because in the position they are in allows them to do whatever they can to help end the war sooner and prevent/end suffering to more people in the Republic they swore to protect.

    No. All they tell him to do is to face Vader. They never said or implied he should kill a unarmed man.

    Which "PT Jedi rules" did he put aside, exactly? Not killing an unarmed man is a "PT Jedi rule". He followed it. And that compassionate act by his own son is what sparked Anakin's return.

    Heart is meaningless without action. Anakin is proof of that. He had a good heart but did evil deeds. Being a Jedi is what matters. And to be a Jedi is about mindset and actions. Luke was a Jedi and behaved like one.
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  19. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 5
    Okay...

    First, they said Palpatine would have to step down immediately when Grevious was dead. Not give up the emergency powers, step down. And not when the emergency is over, but when Grevious was killed, even though the war and resultant state of emergency was still very much in effect. And Ki-Adi Mundi clearly says, "Take charge of the Senate". That can only mean assume a position of governmental power over the Republic. At no time do they mention consulting with or informing the Senate, even though the Jedi had no authority over Palpatine to get him to resign anything; that's a political matter. And if they're going to arrest someone, they'd better have some concrete proof to take to court. Now, let's look at this from a different perspective:
    President A is in the Oval Office, when FBI Director B storms in with three Federal agents. He immediately places President A under arrest for treason, and has him cuffed and taken away. FBI Directror B then goes to the White House Press Room. He announces that, on his own authority, he's arrested President A. He says that he did this without a formal warrant, and without the assistance, consent or knowledge of the Vice-President, the Cabinet, the Congress, or the Attorney General. He also announces that, given the resultant state of emergency, he, himself, will take office as Acting President until such time as the emergency has passed, in his opinion.
    That's a good analogy of what the Jedi were doing. Now, unless the Jedi had some wily defense attorneys, that's a clear violation of their Code, which stresses service, not rule. So, given such a breach, are Mace and the Council still true Jedi? On the other side, Kenobi, who wasn't part of the discussion, is clearly an old-school Jedi, who greatly respects the Code. Would he go along with this? If he disagreed, would he be told to leave? Would he still be a Jedi?

    Next, saying Kenobi and Yoda never said or implied that Vader should be killed doesn't make sense. It's clear in the context. When one engages in effective regicide (which Luke, technically, would be doing to Palpatine and Vader, the Emperor's chief ally), you go all the way or you don't try. Would they expect Luke to just beat Vader into submission, then Mirandize him and lock him away? Kenobi and Yoda had already lied to Luke about his father, dismissed his sensing the remaining good in Vader, and strongly urged him to let his friends suffer and die rather than break training. Given the stakes, I doubt they'd draw the line at killing Vader when he was vulnerable.
    Saying they didn't actually say "kill" is like saying Col. Lucas didn't actually tell Capt. Willard to "kill" Kurtz. He didn't need to. It was clear from the context what was expected.

    And Luke put aside rules about attachment, or lack thereof. Luke didn't behave as though Vader was the soulless machine he'd been told about. He was his father, and he'd treat him with mercy, not impersonally. He'd put aside what he'd been ordered and encouraged to do, and give himself up, rather than others. He definitely took action based on his heart and the Force, not what others told him to do, from either side. I seriously doubt Kenobi or Yoda, had they been there, would've said to Luke, "He's had enough. Move on." But Luke was there, and he correctly judged to situation.
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10

    Yoda and Obi-wan both told Luke that he must face Vader, but beware of Palpatine. Luke has confronted Vader and in turn, confronted himself and the dark side within him. He knows now that he will never turn and if he continues to fight, he will be forced to turn in order to defeat Palpatine. So he throws away his Lightsaber and face Palpatine's wrath. He's prepared to die, but he is also still fighting for Vader's soul which is why he keeps begging him to do the right thing.
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  21. PadawanGussin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2017
    star 1
    "There has been a massive shift in the Force, we have all felt it."

    Obi Wan

    I think that Mace, as great a Jedi master he was, was particularly vulnerable to a shift to the Dark Side by the Force overall. His ability to use his negative emotions without being consumed by them would have wavered as the Force itself turned on him. Once Anakin informed Mace that Palpitine was a Sith Lord , Mace slipped into Vapaad and never was able to center himself enough to make a more rational set of choices to confront Palpitine in a more effective way.
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