Saga Grouping the the two trilogies as the original saga due to VII. Is this wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 7, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I felt like star wars was done. Or at least the numerical installments were done. I am going to hope for the best, but still plan for the worst with these new films.

    I really loved the completion of the cycle with the PT. It made artistic sense to go back. I feel like it will just be hollow if they try to do that again because Vader's story is finished.

    So that is why I group the six films as the original saga now. I feel like there is no way VII can be a direct continuation. I feel it is the start of something new.


    does anyone understand this reasoning or share it?
  2. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    Well, I can assure you there are members of this board that share your sentiment. Anything not made my Lord Lucas isn't the Original Saga, anymore. I, on the other hand, think it's silly.
  3. Eternity85 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    I share your worries on this one. This is really the completion of the saga. We need something new now and the ending in ROTJ was the real ending anyway, it could not have been done better. It's the end of the Sith, the end of Anakins destiny. George Lucas said so himself, its the end of Anakins story. Please start a new saga, new characters, new story.

    http://scifi.about.com/od/starwars/...ut-The-Cyclical-Struggle-Of-Good-And-Evil.htm
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Is that sillier than anything that *is* made by "Lord Lucas" being rejected and maligned beyond recognition for years without end?

    * * *

    I share your sentiments -- or certainly your unease -- BF.

    The thing about Star Wars, thus far, as a movie saga, anyway, is that it was, or is, the deeply personal expression of a single man's worldview, made in defiance of the existing Hollywood order, writ large in light and sound, on his own dime, containing both the visionary, technology-loving (and pushing) world-building audacity of its creator and his life-long obsession with anthropology -- history, politics, art, culture -- and breakneck speed, sweetened with the tart flavour of his pithy humour: his love for absurdity and digression. And there was incredible thought put into every shot, every gesture. Steady framings. Bounteous visual wonders. Amazing music and sound. Near-infinite scope. Whether arguing over Jar Jar or swooning with glee when Han returns to help Luke, we have, no matter our disposition, secretly loved every twist, every second. And why wouldn't we?

    But it's all on the line, now; it's all open to change. Which is, of course, a very Star Warsian theme, through and through, but the degree to which some people feel they're about to be -- or already have been -- jarred is not an easy thing to express in words. The 20th Century Fox logo? Going or gone. The glorious music of John Williams? Same. The epic sound design of Ben Burtt? Same. Lucas' classical stylings? Same. This being a fabulous independent confection, made outside the world of studio moguls and focus groups? Gone. The glorious mythic heroes and villains -- Vader, the Emperor, Yoda, Han Solo, Luke, Leia, Padme, Jar Jar, Jabba, Dooku, et al.? Also going or gone. We've sort of had two "perfect" trilogies already: one being a classic coming-of-age tale, the other being a subversion of that earlier story: darker, more complex, an historical drama. What next? The two existing trilogies form a closed circle. A third -- particularly without many of these critical elements -- might, to some, seem like too much of a good thing.

    In my opinion, there should be some way to mark the significance of what has already unfolded, free of the cajoling of people who, for the most part, let's face it, plainly don't like the PT, and are already going after "Original Saga" fans in jaded retribution. I'm not out to say the sequel trilogy will suck beyond recognition, or, let's never dare to imagine this thing as fit to rank alongside the films that have already been made, but I do think the existing six have their own pedigree, unique in cinema. And I, for one, will go on respecting the "Anakin Skywalker" saga -- a very rich and elegant tapestry in itself -- as where George Lucas got out the majority of what he wanted to say when he was still eager to say it. He came, he saw, he conquered. Anything else is gravy.
    Last edited by Cryogenic, Feb 7, 2013
  5. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    Absolutely not. I agree. Good think I only am disappointed with half of his creation ;)

    Excellent and rational points.

    Thought, I think some are trivial, which, I imagine you do too. The Fox logo? Who cares, right? I mean, we can gripe, but no one seriously cares, right? As for Lucas, I learned to take the bad with the good. The original trilogy is to me, an absolute masterpiece. A masterpiece of originality that somehow combined epic storytelling, a fantastic love story and a weighty, open ended universe. Absolutely incredible. That's why I was so surprised when the PT let me down so much. A paper thin love story. A shallow, bitter, petulant child in Anakin. Was George trying to do TOO MUCH in the PT? Perhaps. Maybe that was his undoing. But ultimately, while I was disappointed in the PT, and prefer the OT infinitely more than it, I still watch them, because it's part of the deeper fabric of Star Wars, which I love and always come back to.

    The only thing that worries about the sequel trilogy is that it may throw away a large portion of post-RotJ EU. If that happens, I'm honestly not sure how I'll react.
    Last edited by TheYankee, Feb 7, 2013
  6. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I understand the feeling, but I think that Star Wars has been woven into the public consciousness in what almost might be a permanent way - it truly is a "modern myth", and it might be the only (or at least one of the only) modern sci-fi franchises that could still be around, one way or another, decades down the line. So I think that ultimately something like this was bound to happen, and I'd rather have it happen like this then with something like a reboot.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and Krueger like this.
  7. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I am not claiming lucas to be a "Lord". I just feel the original story is done, hence the line being drawn.

    VII is going to change the series. It might feel like star wars, but I feel its going to move the series in a new direction. Which is fine, but all I am saying is that it isn't a true continuation as it is more of a new beginning.

    Just because I separate the first six films and the Disney ones doesn't mean I won't be open to enjoy them.
  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I agree - at least, in the sense that that is how it turned out, as opposed to a c1979/1980 vision in which the OT, PT & ST would be separate, connected trilogies - but we simply don't know yet. I think that the way ROTS ended, with the story coming full circle, effectively closed off any further additions to that particular Saga, and it worked beautifully.

    I'd like to see the next trilogy begin a new Saga, while remaining connected to the original/first one. Early drafts & the novelisation refer to SW/ANH as being from 'The First Saga' - I see nothing wrong with there being a second, and it being presented as such.
    It'd be a bit of a risk, but I'd rather the next film isn't called "Episode VII" - come up with something different, or the film will have the spectre of the previous six episodes hanging over it & weighing it down. GL has finally done what he once imagined doing back in 1977/78 by handing the universe over to other filmmakers to play with, and it'd be a shame for the merits of future SW films to be relentlessly overshadowed by their perceived failure to conform to 'the Saga' they might be imprisoned in.
    oierem and BoromirsFan like this.
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I can see the tagline now: "A new saga begins"





    - This is just the beginning!
    - Punch it!

    /LM
    Force Smuggler and BoromirsFan like this.
  10. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    It's not, "wrong," perse. It does seen a bit childish. Most of the proponents of segregating I to VI from VII to IX seem to be butthurt that Lucas has been BSing us all this time with his nonsense that Star Wars was always meant to be, "HERP THE 6 PART TRAGEDY OF DARTH VADER," and that there's nothing else after ROTJ in his mind. Now that his intentions are revealed, people are trying to rationalize this to themselves because they put too much stalk in Lucas' thoughts and alleged intentions.

    I think the auteur theory is a load of garbage, especially when trying to apply it to Star Wars and Lucas. Since I never bought his Star Wars is Anakin's story trash, I was more easily prepared to accept this new trilogy and welcome it as a TRUE continuation of the Star Wars saga.
    sinkie and Yunners like this.
  11. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    It'd be kind of funny if it is suddenly "wrong" to pick and choose after years of hearing some vocal fans proudly proclaim their sole devotion the O-OT. But no, it's not wrong, just like it's not wrong that some fans prefer to view various comics or novels as "the real story" compared to the films.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  12. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I consider the ST to be the start of a new saga.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and BoromirsFan like this.
  13. SkywalkerSquadron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2013
    star 4
    I'll have to wait and see what VII is like.
  14. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4
    This times 100000000
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and Cryogenic like this.
  15. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    The virtues and limitations of George Lucas have intrigued me to such a degree that I honestly can't see myself being tethered to a continuation lacking his stewardship.

    Personally, my Sequel Trilogy experience may prove comparable to that of Son of Frankenstein. Same banner. Similar presentation. A reasonable measure of quality. Even a returning lead star. But no way in holy hell is this part of the story.

    For all this, I wish Abrams and Co. the best of luck, and hope that those who are dissatisfied with Lucas's latter day output are satisfied with the result. Perhaps some day, the acrimony will end.
  16. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Just to clarify, I wish this new endeavour and the people working on it all the best, and I'm excited just to think that George is completing a long-held dream to make a further three episodes: a trilogy of trilogies. Since 1978, he seems to have imagined at least nine (at the time, it was twelve), and probably always hoped to get at least that many made in the span of a human lifetime (his own!). It will also make the foundation he laid in the prequels -- especially Episode I ("The Beginning") -- more epic, and even render the originals that bit more special: tantalizingly sandwiched between two bolder, brighter, shinier, hyper-dense works; exotic extensions of the original trilogy's vintage coming-of-age story; the original three's beautiful simplicity becoming all the more elemental and inviting. And there are clearly good people on this project: George Lucas himself, Kathleen Kennedy, plus a talented screenwriter in the form of Michael Arndt, and even J.J. Abrams, I gotta hand it to him, at least comes with bags of enthusiasm running back to his childhood. It's going to be one hell of a show. But it won't quite be George's show. It won't be the breathtaking tour of sight and sound, pathos and comedy, we all know. Not unless George gets more involved. Which we shouldn't rule out: he has that controlling tendency where his baby is concerned, even though this trilogy is meant to be about passing the baton (or lightsaber). What's already been done, however, is magnificent, and it's a little difficult to see a sequel trilogy, without George's rapacious investment in every aspect, offering the same depth, beauty, or intelligence (subjectively speaking, of course). It feels like an epoch has ended; and I truly think it really has.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and BoromirsFan like this.
  17. TiniTinyTony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2003
    star 5
    Right now I consider Episodes I - VI as the "Star Wars Saga" or "The story of Anakin". I hope once VI - IX are done that I can consider all 9 movies as the Star Wars Saga, but it's WAY too early to tell, especially since I - VI was the story of Anakin and he's dead. Will his Force ghost help to tie the new movies to the existing ones? I'm sure it will, but we'll see how they do it.
    obi-rob-kenobi4 likes this.
  18. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    I will add there is a chance that the ST creative team could win me over, provided they make an effort to honor the ambitions of the PT. That is, rather than merely replicating the swashbuckling OT spirit, they opt to revisit and reevaluate the various philosophical and moral threads introduced in the maligned new trilogy. What is the role of a mediating religious order in a political machine? What are the hazards of good intentions? How to counter the appeal of totalitarianism? How will the Skywalker children both escape and embody the ghosts of Anakin and Padme?

    I may stick around, so long as Abrams and Co. resist every unsavory impulse in the current geek culture.
  19. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    That's an attitude I can definitely get behind. I prefer to consider it a beginning rather than an ending, but this definitely marks a new era in the history of Star Wars in a way the PT never did.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  20. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I understand you. For me, the Saga is over, episodes 1-6 form a completed story, surprisingly varied and unified at the same time.
    No matter how they try to promote the new films, they just can't be a part of the same story, since all the major issues introduced in episode I are resolved in episode VI, and that's how a story works.
    Plus, for me the fact that Lucas is no longer the main force behind the movies is enough to think that, the new movies might be good,bad or even great, but they won't be the same; I just love Lucas' movies. And the lack of John Williams is another equally important factor.

    A lot of people just want to think the Saga needs 9 episodes, because it's a number that has been in the collective mind for decades, and they've never accepted that the story was over (as Lucas himself said several times). Therefore, the marketing for the new movies is easy: they will keep pretending that the Saga needs another three episodes to be over.
    Personally, I have little interest in the new movies, and I actually don't want to add more movies to the Saga. For me, it's over, and it's great as it is. I will (most probably) watch the new movies, because I have no doubt that they will be good, but they just won't be part of the Saga for me.

    (and I'd like to say, the more they try to connect the new movies with the existing Saga, with forced returning characters, the worse they will be. I simply cannot understand how it is a good thing to see "Star Wars Soap Opera" with old Luke, Han and Leia running around).
    obi-rob-kenobi4 and CoolyFett like this.
  21. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    I don't think they'll do that, though. Luke might play an important role in the first one (he'll probably die or just wander off, effectively serving the purpose of Obi-Wan in the OT, or Qui-Gon in the PT), anyone else will be understandable & inevitable cameos.

    I actually do have a certain amount of faith that these new films won't just be flogging a dead horse - look at what happened with Star Trek: The Next Generation. You'll always have the old-school vs new-school debates, but TNG successfully took the baton & ran with it, without having to cling desperately to the original series. The occasional cameo was always just a bit of fun.
    Hopefully the SW franchise will pull it off just as successfully, but if it's to happen, they'll have to move on.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Feb 9, 2013
  22. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I hope so, but I'm really surprised that every fan in the "Episode VII" subforum seems to want everyone and their mother back, as if that was a good thing.
  23. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I'm a fan of 1-6, I don't plan on seeing any of the Disney trilogy, I have the Star War story I like & I'm fine with just the Fox GL saga. I hope the new generation of kids enjoy these new disney movies, but I'm not viewing them or owning them in my home. At the end of the day everyone will do what they want to do & I've already decided my position on the Star Wars saga & what aspects ill support.
  24. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Most likely the new movie will get pushed back to a later date, so Abrams can create his own complete story. He doesn't need to use anything from the Fox6 whatsoever. The galaxy is so big, so vast they could virtually do anything in that galaxy. Star Wars is not about the stupid Skywalkers. Many fans act as if the story doesn't involve a Skywalker, then its not Star Wars which is tons of crap. They could make a trilogy based on the smuggling biz, Bounty hunter biz, Pod racing stories in detail, a war story from the view of certtain troopers from whatever faction. There are so many stories they could tell in that universe. Its like all people wanna see is Skywalkers, lightsabers & the force, well frankly I've had enough. Explore another part of the galax.
    Camarasaur8 likes this.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    TPM is completely Skywalker-free for the first 31 minutes, 57 seconds.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.