Saga Grouping the the two trilogies as the original saga due to VII. Is this wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. freakjokerxxx Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2013
    My personal view is that if it follows the Skywalker bloodline then it should be numbered as part of the saga. If it has nothing to do with them then it should be it's own series. I understand the notion of keeping them seperate but to me the bloodline is to important to seperate.
  2. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, the characters are the important thing-the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and LOTR are all one long saga despite completely different settings and stories because they all share characters; so shall it be with Wars.
  3. TheYankee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2006
    star 1
    This "The First 6 Episodes is the Story of Anakin" is utter nonsense. Lucas may say that NOW, and that is indeed the story arc of the I-III, but IV-VI are anything but that. You can't retroactively say, "Oh, by the way, the first three movies I made... yeah, that was all about Anakin." Bull. That was about good triumphing over evil. If you want to boil it down to its essence, that's what it is. And that was just fine. When it turned into a story about a whiny kid who bitched and moaned on end, it wasn't quite as solid as the OT.
  4. Palp_Faction Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 3
    ROTJ was a very rushed attempt to complete the saga, IMHO, and wasn't that great a movie. The original outline for the 9 episodes has some very interesting ideas and I welcome the new episodes as I feel that Luke's story certainly isn't over yet. If written well, Ep 7 should be a seamless continuation from the previous 6 movies. A new saga would be the easy and less satisfactory way forward. I'm hoping that 7-9 will be as much a part of the saga as 1-6 and will be the conclusion of Luke's story.
  5. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Even if the Prequels were more Anakin-centric than originally planned by Lucas back in 1979-1983, the structure of the Saga has essentially remained the same since then.

    Lucas surprisingly claiming during the PT production that it was now to be seen as the story of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader hasn't changed much to me. I personally still see them as 2 different trilogies, like it was initially meant to be. Especially with those overtly religious and messianic themes introduced in the PT, but completely ignored in the OT.

    Actually, as soon as 1980, when there was no such concept as a "Tragedy of Darth Vader" 6 film-series and the 3 trilogies plan was still officially valid, ROTJ anyway was to end with the death of both Vader/Anakin Skywalker and the Emperor, the victory of the Rebellion and the destruction of the Empire (except for Gary Kurtz...). Nevertheless episodes VII, VIII and IX were still floating around and bandied about, even if Lucas had way less emotional connection to them, and surely had already decided he would probably never make them.

    So, to me, episode VII (if penned from Lucas' original vague ideas and notes) belongs to the whole Saga.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 11, 2013
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  6. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    There's a curiosity on my part as to how Hamill would fare in a Sequel Trilogy. On one hand, he was the only member of the original cast to deliver a consistently committed performance (Hamill-3, Ford-2, Fisher-1), but I haven't seen any dramatic work of his for the past, well...two decades.
  7. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I think all of his notable work has been in voice acting.
  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    He's an exceptional voice actor. I would never have known it was him were he not mentioned in the credits.

    For my part, he's by far my favorite of the OT main actors. He has an earnestness to him and a wholesome goodness that makes Luke one of the most endearing of all the Star Wars characters, at least for me.
  9. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    I've seen this many times, and honestly, I don't know why you think it's true. Just because the idea of "George was tired with the Saga and wanted to finish it as quick and cheap as possible" is out there, it doesn't make ROTJ "rushed". It took 3 years to make the movie, right?

    Regarding the personal story of Luke (which was the point of the OT) and Anakin (in regards to the prequels), I don't think it's rushed: I think it's just the natural final step in both cases.
    Luke's story is the classic story of the heroe: in the first chapter he rescues the princess and is victorious; in the second chapter he is troubled and finds a hard truth; in the last chapter, he has matured, and has to accept the situation, has his final confrontation with evil and is victorious. I don't think anything's missing.
    Regarding Anakin's story, it's also a perfect final chapter. After the events of the PT, episode IV presents this monster he has become; episode V shows the first signs of a personal desire to get rid of the Emperor and get Luke by his side; episode VI ends with his conflict as he finally sides with Luke and kills the Emperor. Why is it rushed?

    If we look at the "political story", you may think it's rushed because it lacks a real resolution. I'd say it's incoherent, but that's a "problem" of the whole OT: it lacks a real progression on the political side; it's just a story of a bunch of underdog heroes fighting an evil Empire, but there is never a real plan to get somewhere. It's just an excuse to provide fun adventures and conflict, a backdrop for the personal story. Episode IV has this huge victory of the Rebels. Episode V reverts back to the previous situation: the Empire is winning and the Rebels have to hide and escape. Episode VI doesn't try to shoehorn a complex plot to establish a new regime, aligning coherently to the previous movies, and just providing the ultimate battle which will decide which side wins.

    You may think that we need more resolution in the political side, but I don't agree: in all the movies of the Saga, the personal story always overrides the political one, so the focus of the ST should also be a personal one. And since the basic conflict introduced in episode I (Anakin's story and Palpatine's revenge) is clearly over by the end of episode VI, it's very difficult to think that ST can "seamlessly" work as a continuation of the same story.

    Harry Potter doesn't show how the new regime is established after Voldemort is defeated: that's not part of the story. Same with the Lord of the Rings. Same with Star Wars.
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  10. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Agree.

    And he's partcularly terrific in ROTJ. The way he seems to have matured from ESB is awesome, in just 3 years, with both strong physical and intellectual presence. It strikes me every time I watch the movie. It's almost like he's not the same person. A truly wonderful piece of acting. He's pretty good in ESB too.

    I can't understand why, unlike Ford, he remained typecast in this role, and couldn't find any significant part the following years. Although he had less imposing features.

    Yeah...It would be quite thrilling to see him back in the role. Even in a few scenes.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 14, 2013
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  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The "ingenue/earnest young hero" roles seem to be awfully hard to break out of. Mark got great reviews for The Elephant Man but he was still seen as earnest young farmboy-turned-Jedi Luke Skywalker.
  12. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Sure, but in ROTJ, he's not that ingenue/earnest young hero anymore. Even at the end of ESB. Plus, like you mention, he got appraisal for Elephant Man and Amadeus.
    That's quite bewildering in the end.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 14, 2013
  13. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    For me, Palpatine is the godhead of the Saga; the nucleus around which everyone and everything revolves. A continuation without him feels so...wrong.

    Though I've disparaged modern franchises for undisciplined, unbearable excess and bloat (e.g., The Pirates of the Caribbean, The Hobbit), I still feel Lucas was misguided to wrap everything up in 1983. Return of the Jedi could easily have been two films, leaving the Saga all the richer. Now, we're left with a Sequel Trilogy bereft of the two most interesting characters.
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  14. StarWarsVerses Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2013
    star 1
    At my most optimistic I tend to compare the situation to the dichotomy between 2001: A Space Odyssey and 2010: The Year We Make Contact - the latter is a perfectly servicable film, directed well with an obvious affection for the source materal and even had the direct involvement of some of the key creative forces behind the original film (Clarke, EEG). Kubrick himself gave it his blessing, or at least his indifference.

    Of course the end result is absolutely laughable when compared to 2001. For all their good intentions the makers of 2010 couldn't have had the first inkling of what Kubrick was really weaving together, under the literalness, in the murky corners of the human visual cortex. Not even Arthur C. Clarke was on the same page since he was viewing the story with a linear, text-based bias. For all the sequel has going for it, it falls short because it doesn't comprehend. If a vapid aesthetician like Abrams is directing these new Star Wars installments the struggle to continue these films in a sophisticated way seems to be over before it's begun.

    but really, I doubt it could have gone any other way. anything after Lucas is something else.

    http://www.mstrmnd.com/log/985
    Last edited by StarWarsVerses, Feb 14, 2013
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  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    2010, the film, is a pretty much straightforward adaptation of 2010, the book ( except with a prominent character death added in because it's Hollywood ). I'd say it comprehends well what Clarke was going for in the book, despite the fact that Hyams is not Kubrick and doesn't have the same visual style.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Feb 14, 2013
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  16. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Having regrettably spent some time on that site before, I can say with some certainty that it is one of the most depressingly hilarious collections of pretentious mirrors-within-mirrors fauxsophical vaguely-postmodern gibberish I have ever had the (mis?)fortune to encounter.

    So you'll forgive me if I take this comment with a couple of saltshakers worth of salt.
  17. Ubbrickian Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2013
    It's neuroscience observing actual structures Lucas plays with. It has nothing to do with what you're talking about. It isn't any kind of art-theory, which is what you're using to describe it.
    Last edited by Ubbrickian, Feb 14, 2013
  18. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Very dodgy neuroscience, maybe.

    Or at best dodgily written neuroscience.
    Last edited by Vthuil, Feb 15, 2013
  19. Ubbrickian Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2013
    Not so dodgy. An entire book of this is being printed by Duke University Press, edited by medical anthropologists at MIT.
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  20. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    The Star Wars I'm a fan of starts with The Phantom Menace & ends with Return of the Jedi. Everything extra is a totally new tale not featuring enough of the characters from the Classic six films that exist as of now. Could the story based on 1-6 be broken down into 9 parts? Yea probably, but once Palpatine dies that when THAT story is over.The idea of character being more important than Palpatine is crazy. No way is Han Solo of even Leia as inportant as Palpatine is. Its just funny how people view the actual story that I watched. I've seen A New Hope several times & Han Solo is as much the star as Jar Jar Bicks is in The Phantom Menace. A New Hope waas not about Han Solo, that chapter was about Obi Wan, Luke, Tarkin, Leia & Anakin. The parts they played in the story meant a lot more than Hans, but fans often present that chapter as if the story is about Han, Leia & Luke totally leaving Obi Wan, Tarkin & Anakin out of the loop as if they have this sort of tunnle vision. When you watch the conclusion that is The Return of the Jedi, who else is there left to fight? Palpatine, Vader, Jabba & Boba Fett are all dead by the end of that chapter. Yet people. Never want to except this as if all 4 of those characters will return in the Disney Trilogy. The Disney Trilogy WILL have to creat a New Villain, that will need an orgin story & fans want this new villain to be fought off by the heroes of the past? Um ok bert. If fans thought the PT hurt the OT I can only imagine the crying & whining these new Disney movie will do. Its gonna be funny to see. A lot of people who want so desperately to have the story of Palpatines raise & fall extended to a new villain may not enjoy what's coming. That's why I know ahead of time I won't allow the Disney Trilogy to ruin the 6 I have now & leave it at that.
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  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas says lots of things, I don't even pay much attention to it.
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  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I think it's wise to just wait and see what they do with it. For now, I'm cautiously optimistic. I think having fresh eyes working on Star Wars is good for the health of the franchise. So, this may end up fitting in quite nicely with the six previous films, we have to wait and see.
  23. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I think it detracts from the discussion to keep bringing things back to George Lucas. For me, it's not a question of who's working on the film. It's a question of, what now?

    RotJ is the conclusion of the OT. It's the conclusion of the entire six episode saga. Every event leads up to that three-way confrontation between Luke, Vader and the Emperor on the Death Star II. For this to be maintained, the climax of Episode IX will need to feel like the conclusion of everything since The Phantom Menace.

    I just struggle to see where the story will go and still be able to maintain its dramatic resonance.

    It's funny really. With the the prequels,we got Star Wars films that deepened the mythology but weren't much fun. The ST could be a lot of fun, but ultimately shallow when it comes to continuing the story.
  24. Eternity85 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2008
    star 3
    This is the kind of talentless writing and lack of vison I fear will present itself in the new episodes:

    "Ten years after the death of Emperor Palpatine and Lord Vader, a new dark lord rises from the shadows. With an army of Sith behind him the galaxy is confronted with its greatest threat yet." Typical...

    I have seen things like this so many times. Just like the very popular books that takes place right after ROTJ, where Palpatine is ressurected as a clone (!??!), this is the kind of horrible ideas I fear will make its way into the new movies. Ideas that actually degrade the original story and reduces the significance of those events, just so that they can go on making money on SW films. Same thing with The Force Unleashed, a horrible concept that I could never accept since it would ruin my experience of the original story. Luckily I can choose to do the same thing that I did with the clone wars series: forget it ever existed.

    I just wish they could make something new, create new stories and new character. Don't degrade the original story! That's all I ask for really. I appreciate art and good stories, meaningful stories. I don't want people to milk the same cow over and over again; if you don't have any original or good ideas, then don't plan on making a new SW movie every two year. I hope they do have good ideas, but as many of us fear, this might not be the case.
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  25. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    As we all know, in every Star Wars movie and in both trilogies, there is always the personal storyline and the larger galactic storyline. In the PT each movie had Anakin's storyline and also had the storyline which followed the fall of the Republic that involved Palpatine and all of the politicians. In the OT, you had Luke's personal story and then you also had the story of the rebellion fighting to destroy the Empire. For the PT and the OT, the personal stories (Anakin and Luke) connected. So by the time you get to the climax of Episode VI, it truely feels like everything since Episode I had built up to it. It was in the truest sense, all one storyline. Which is what is brilliant about it.

    I think for the sequel trilogy, they are really going to struggle if its even at all possible to make the personal storyline to really feel like its TRULY parts 7-9 of a 9 part personal storyline in the same way it feels like in Eps 4-6. That is just going to be tough since Vader and Sidious are dead and Luke helped Anakin fullfill the prophecy.

    I do think though that the larger galactic storyline will truely have no trouble at all feel like its parts 7-9 of a 9 part galactic political storyline. Think about it. Parts 1-3 is the story about a Republic that starts at its height and then slowly but surely errodes away and crumbles from within and by the end of part 3 has literally become an evil Empire. Parts 4-6 is the story about a small group of rebels who have become outraged at the new regime, go to war against the evil Empire and finally defeat it in part 6. Parts 7-9 will be the story about those who were once opposed to the Empire trying to rebuld and restore the Republic. I think the story will be told in a way that it won't be easy to accomplish, but by the end of Episode IX, they will succeed and it it will be a very triumphant return and resurrection of the New Republic. So, as you can see, the larger galactic storyline of the new trilogy should easily feel like a very natural continuation of and conclusion of a 9 part arc.

    Again, it is going to the be the personal storyline (the Skywalker offspring and his/her/their struggle with the light and darkside of the force) which may feel a bit tacked on and contrived. But we will see.
    Last edited by Luukeskywalker, Feb 17, 2013
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