Saga Grouping the the two trilogies as the original saga due to VII. Is this wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 7, 2013.

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  1. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    But he didn't just say he wouldn't do it. He insisted that he never planned an ST at all and that the media made the whole thing up. That is objectively a falsehood by Lucas any way you try to spin or apologize for it.
  2. Samuel Vimes Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    But that isn't what Lucas seem to say in those quotes that I posted. Instead he says that there never was a ST, that no ep beyond VI were ever planned, much less written and the media made the whole thing up. That SW is and always was, the story of Anakin Skywalker and nothing beyond ep I-VI was ever intended.

    I know that Lucas DID have an ST in mind, or rather several ST. The first one was around ESB and that ST would deal with Luke's sister Neelith Skywalker and maybe the emperor would not appear until ep IX. Altough that was mostly from Gary Kurtz so the bit about the emperor might not be accurate.
    After RotJ and making Leia, the "other" and wrapping up much of the loose ends, the ST was still talked about but then it would be different. There was no lost sister to find but Lucas said he had short outlines for them.

    After making the PT, Lucas probably was a bit tired and didn't want to do more SW. And that makes sense. It takes a lot of stamina and determination to do one film, and even more to make three of them and he possibly figured that he was getting a bit old.
    But what I can't understand is why he tried to pretend that the ST never existed in the first place. He and others had talked about them often enough so why try and make it seem that they were just a figment of the medias imagination?
    Maybe he was tired of being asked about them and used this a quick method to shut reporters up but it still seems odd.
    Just say that the ST is far too unfinished and out there and that he don't think he will ever make them.

    In any event, we will be getting the ST a long last and I will be looking forward to them with interest. J.J. is good and competent and he could make something interesting out of ep VII I hope. I might have prefered Matt Vaugh because I really like his last three films, esp Stardust. But perhaps he might make ep VIII.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  3. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    It's not just that he was tired and didn't want to make more SW films. It's also the fact that, once the PT was made, the Saga became a unified story, the story of Anakin Skywalker, and episode VI perfectly (and in a way, unexpectedly) resolved the story that was set up in episode I. I think Lucas really liked the final result, and therefore, grew convinced that the Saga was over, and that it's the story of Anakin Skywalker.
    (and so am I, btw).

    So, why did he pretend that the ST never existed? Partly, because it's the easy answer; he got asked that question all the time and explaining the details of all the process would be boring for the majority of the people. Partly, because it cements the idea of the I-VI Saga as a finished entity. Partly, because he didn't want to get asked that same question over and over again ("When will you make the next films?"). And partly, because the Saga really became the story of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, and therefore, he was right about the fact that there wasn't anything else to tell.

    If he had said "yes, there were plans to make a ST, but with the PT finished, they are no longer relevant to the story and I don't want to make them" people would keep asking about them, people would think that the saga was not over, people wouldn't accept I-VI as his final "vision", people would get confused about why the ST is no longer relevant, and people would think that Lucas didn't have a solid plan for the Saga since the beginning, after all.
    Last edited by oierem, Apr 5, 2013
  4. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Samuel Vimes posted:

    "After making the PT, Lucas probably was a bit tired and didn't want to do more SW. And that makes sense. It takes a lot of stamina and determination to do one film, and even more to make three of them and he possibly figured that he was getting a bit old."

    Yes exactly.

    "Maybe he was tired of being asked about them and used this a quick method to shut reporters up"

    Yes again. Sure.

    Despite what small pockets of hostile, bitter, out for blood troublemakers might try to constantly insinuate upon anything the creator of SW ever said, says and will ever say...nobody is trying to spin anything or apologize for anything or get over on anybody.

    The ST always existed as the part in Lucas's big story that was far less likely to be made than the PT. The ST also is the one that is the most made up on the fly/not fully planed out. That is why it was made last and almost never made at all.

    Thats also yet another reason why most people and casual fans naturally just view the "PT" and "OT" as the OS with the ST that comes after it. Because the ST is the one that is the afterthought more than anything else.

    There is the OS that was made by George Lucas and then there is the ST that is being made by Disney.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sequel_trilogy
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Apr 5, 2013
  5. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    I agree that this different from the other's because George isn't as involved as he once was. While he did write his treatment, it seems like more of an afterthought after he phased the ST out of his life for so long.

    It seems initial plans of the sequel trilogy aren't applicable to this situation (at least by Gary Kurtz's account) because it was mainly abridged into ROTJ. There's many details and ideas that didn't get used, but the overall story is something that is probably going to be completely new.
  6. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    From wookipedia:
    Lucas is historically reported to have only a vague notion of what will happen in the three films of a sequel trilogy. He is quoted as saying "If the first trilogy (The backstory or what the public calls the PT) is social and political and talks about how society evolves, Star Wars (the core of the story or what the public calls the OT) is more about personal growth and self realization, and the third (The ST) deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

    I like the idea that each different generation gets a trilogy that is each essentially a different part of George Lucas's original idea of a Star Wars Saga made up of a "Trilogy of trilogys".

    Episodes 1,2 and 3: About social and political issues and how society evolves.

    Episodes 4,5 and 6: About personal growth and self realization.

    Episodes 7,8 and 9: About moral and philosophical problems and passing on what you have learned.

    Personally I love it. 3 different trilogy's for 3 different generations that each have special meaning to their respective generation. First Lucas just wanted to complete his OS and he did get to finish it before he retired but now SW can keep going and go on to be "handed off to new, younger generations of filmmakers" to make into the long fabled "Trilogy of Trilogys" as described above. [face_coffee]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Apr 5, 2013
  7. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    That's a common misconception - pretty much the only element from the original ST that was incorporated into ROTJ was making Leia the mysterious 'Other' (who may or may not have originally been meant to be a main character in the ST).

    The ST was meant to be set 20-40 years after ROTJ and deal with the rebuilding of the Republic - that could still be the setting for the films about to be made. Other than that, virtually nothing is known for sure, other than the broad themes obi-rob-kenobi4 stated above, and again, they could still feature.

    As for Kurtz's accounts, that's another kettle of fish altogether...

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/according-to-gary-kurtz.50003998/
  8. SlashMan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Yes, but Luke's knighthood is one thing that was quickly brushed upon in ROTJ, and this was also the first appearance of the Emperor, which was supposed to be saved for the conclusion in Episode IX. It seems like the ending for ROTJ became more definitive once Lucas' demand for the ST dwindled.
  9. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    My number one most practical expectation/educated guess for the ST films is that (like it says in the wookipedia page) Luke will have a son and will die towards the end half of Episode 7 (like Obi-wan in Episode 4 and Qui-gon in Episode 1 both had to died for the heros journey) and the trilogy will be essentially about Luke's son overcoming the temptation of the darkside and rebuilding the republic and his fathers new jedi order to protect the delicate balance of the force. As has been said by many fans so far and as would be perfectly fitting for both the ages of the cast and to "not step on any toes" chronology wise the film will most likely be set 32 years after Episode 6. This would also beautifully mirror the PT with episode 1 taking place 32 years before the OT and Episode 7 taking place 32 years after the OT.=D=

    This is simply very consistent with virtually everything that has been hinted at and said about the ST so far by Mark Hammil and Lucas and LFL. Of course this is still just speculation so far but its the safest and most appropriate way to plot out the beginning/transition into the ST. Interesting to say the least. Only time will tell.[face_coffee]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Apr 6, 2013
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  10. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Also a common misconception, at least as far as the 'Sequel Trilogy' of Eps VII-IX goes. In the 12-episode framework it's quite likely this would have happened (and is where Kurtz recalls it from), but that's a very different vision (which can be called 'The Adventures of Luke Skywalker').
    Again, the ST was to have been about the rebuilding of the Republic, meaning that by which time the Emperor had already been defeated.

    This, I completely agree with. It's very much "And they all lived happily ever after", as opposed to necessarily leading into more films, and I don't believe that would have been the case if there were specific plans to make more films in the 1980s. Kurtz's rather confusing accounts about the ending of ROTJ being bittersweet, with Luke leaving by himself at the end while Leia struggles with her new duties, may be somewhat accurate for both the 12 & 9 episode visions.

    I also agree with your comment about Luke's knighthood being somewhat only touched upon - one of the supposed themes of the ST was 'Jedi Knighthood & passing on what you have learned', and while it was mentioned in ROTJ, it wasn't exactly emphasised.
  11. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Mmmmm.......I really wouldn't say that "it wasn't exactly emphasized" seeming as one of the most powerful scenes in the whole Saga is when Luke throws down his saber, tells palpatine that he has failed and that he is a Jedi like his father before him. Just sayin.

    Also

    I dont know why some fans feel the need to pit the two "Adventures of luke skywalker" and "The tragedy of darth vader" against each other so much as if both cant simply exist (as they both already do anyway within the larger story) equally. IMO it only shows that some fans (not all) simply cant cope with the fact that SW went through the natural creative process that we have been talking about for pages now and ended up as it does today. For me and many fans like me "The adventures of luke skywalker" already DO exist right inside of "the tragedy of darth vader" so its fine.

    Its a bunch of good ideas that all ultimately got to end up in the finished final story. The Star Wars Saga. Did some of those ideas have to get fit in? Sure. Thats the natural storytelling process like Lucas has admitted to more than enough times. So all this team "adventures of luke" against team "tragedy of Darth" stuff is all just an illusion. A completely unnecessary and destructive illusion to boot. [face_peace]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Apr 7, 2013
  12. darklordoftech Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    Can we all agree that at some point, Palpatine wasn't supposed to appear until sometime after Episode VI?
  13. obi-rob-kenobi4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2007
    star 4
    Can we all agree that at the end of the day it just doesn't matter???[face_tired]
    Last edited by obi-rob-kenobi4, Apr 7, 2013
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  14. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Er... no - if anyone's trying to establish what might have happened with the SW Saga in the past, what might yet happen, or investigating the creative process itself, it certainly does matter, particularly given the amount of misinformation that's out there.
    If you find it that dull, you don't have to participate, but don't attempt to write off such discussions as meaningless.[face_peace]
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 7, 2013
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  15. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    On the contrary. A story as important as Star Wars... How it was created is very important historically and we should endeavor to be as accurate as possible. Especially with so much misinformation and falsehoods out there.
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  16. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    IV-V-VI-I-II-III
  17. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    ^ Yes, that IS the best way to watch Star Wars despite what the, "artist," says.
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  18. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Sep 30, 2012
    star 6
    That's another issue for another thread.
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  19. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Yes it is. @Heero_Yuy and @Jcuk, don't try to start a flame war.
  20. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5

    Bless your fan heart, Rob! ^:)^ =D= [face_clown][face_alien]


    You know exactly where it's at -- and you're loud and proud with it!


    I, too, love the idea of a "trilogy of trilogies", since not only does it allow for three different sets of films with their own tonal architecture and thematic purpose, but it also reflects the shifting look and mood of each film within each trilogy: what's true of the individual parts is true of the whole; and vice versa.


    Just a little thing to flag up on this one...

    Technically, proper mirroring would occur if Episode IX was set 32/33 years after the OT, not VII.

    That said, given the age of the OT actors now, and with knowledge that the first of the sequel trilogy expected some time in 2015 or shortly after, it might be better if VII was set at least thirty years later.

    On the other hand, they have all the CG in the world, these days, and when it comes to Star Wars, the sky -- or the pixel -- is now the limit, so the best thing to do is... expect the unexpected.


    I've seen it put this way:

    The PT is the story of Obi-Wan, the OT is the story of Luke, and the PT-OT saga is the story of Anakin.

    One could equally say, however, that the PT is the story of Padme, or Palpatine, the OT is the story of Han, or Leia, and the main saga is, in fact, the story of Obi-Wan, or the Emperor, or the droids, or whoever, really.

    In this way, fans are guilty of playing "divide and conquer". In the final analysis, it doesn't matter whose story it is, since the story is a mosaic of ideas first and "about" any one character second.

    Ideas, to me, are more important than people; and geometry, in a sense, more important still. Ideas outlast people and geometry underpins the universe.

    If one is stuck in a parochial/political mode of thinking, then which fictional character the films are "about" might be of prime importance. If, however, you have your eyes on the stars -- the STAR in WARS -- a whole different set of principles and priorities might open up.
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  21. bstnsx704 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    I am very, very interested in the 'moral and philosophical problems' element of the proposed Sequel Trilogy. I've always found that stuff to be among the most compelling concepts in the six films, and if the new movies can tackle those themes (and perhaps some of the more mystical properties of the Force) in an interesting way than I will be very intrigued.
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  22. Jedi Werdna Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    For myself, I consider each trilogy it's own saga, and it may never be complete, despite whatever it says on the outside of the blu-ray box. I have seen some disinterest/apathy towards the Sequel Trilogy as well as excitement. Similarly, there were mixed opinions about the Prequel Trilogy; hatred, confusion, sense of completion about the story as a whole. I have learned to take what has happened/is happening in the Star Wars universe with a grain of salt. But I'm still very passionate about SW as much as the next guy, maybe more maybe less. I mean, who can judge someone else's fandom? Well, maybe Steve Sansweet... All I'm saying is that it didn't ruin my childhood memories. I don't think the PT was horrible, in fact I enjoyed most of it. At the time, it was more Star Wars, so I was thrilled! And now, I look forward for the ST for more SW.
    One thing I DO think about is the timeline of when OT was released, I was always curious about what took place before? It was always before, before, before. Then we got the PT. Now, it seems to be what happens now? Like I've seen other posts, I agree that ROTJ has the tone of finality to it. The story has been told and is finished. How much more can be said? We have PT, OT and the approaching ST. Will there be a Prequel-prequel trilogy, a sequel-sequel trilogy? It makes me wonder how far back or far forward will it go?
    Well like I said before, it's more Star Wars so how can that be a bad thing?
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  23. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    I diasagree. I think the casual fan views it as either one 9 episode saga or 4-9 as the saga and 1-3 as the backstory. Even Lucas called the PT the backstory.
  24. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I'll probably see it as one saga 1-9 but might refer to 1-6 as Lucas Wars or something and 7-12 as Disney Wars.
    As @T-R- said I could see it as 4-9 or up to 12 as the saga and 1-3 as the backstory. ANH is the place to start SW for me. ANH, ESB, start of ROTJ through Dagobah, TPM, AOTC, ROTS, ROTJ to end, 7, 8, 9.
    While Lucas might have called the PT the back story he is of the belief that people should watch the saga 1-6. For me you can watch it whatever way you want.
  25. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Palpatine is DEAD, watch the movies that you want to watch. Disney is a great company. Disney Star Wars should be fun for the fans who like it. I'm old school so give me 1-6 & I'm cool. Qui Gon - Celebrating Ewoks & I'm a happy camper.
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