Saga Grouping the the two trilogies as the original saga due to VII. Is this wrong?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 7, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Suure is a lot of reaching going on in this thread. People really want these new movies to connect with the Complete Saga so bad they make up things to connect them lol. Luke is the main hero? Laughable. Luke is a contributor & just that. One thing for sure this thread is definitely raising the value of the Blu ray completed saga set. Its seems more so untainted now that there is a push to taint them with additional movies. Heck even that lego star wars completed saga game is starting to look appealing. And they plan on releasing a new film every year? One thing about the completed saga is the effort GL & staaff put into the films. Disney is just cashing in on that effort, I don't fault them at all business is business. The new Disney movies are being produced by a totally different team & staff. Their best move would be to create their own art.
  2. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Why don't you cite examples of how we're, "reaching"? Every FACT we have available shows that the films will indeed be continuing the saga. Really, it's the side that bought into Lucas nonsense about what SW is that's having the hardest time facing this.
  3. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Adding episode VII to the original six is like adding bricks to a completed house: it's not necessary. I'm excited to see what is in store for us, but at the same time I don't want it to happen.
    CoolyFett and oierem like this.
  4. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    Flawed analogy because the house was never completed. If it were, we wouldn't be getting a SEQUEL trilogy. Just the spinoff films. It's obvious to anyone looking at this objectively that Lucas changed his mind and/or lied to us. Again.
  5. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    I find it hilarious that someone whose signature takes not one, but two digs at George Lucas is unable to separate the author from the work.

    The Saga seemed complete because it felt complete. It doesn't matter what anyone else says, whether it's Lucas, Abrams, Ardnt, whoever. We as the audience have the right to decide whether or not a story seems complete to us (just as we have the right to our own interpretations of any work of art). Many people, myself included, feel that The Matrix had a good conclusion and didn't need to be continued by sequels. The fact that they made sequels doesn't make such an opinion wrong.

    I mean, you yourself say in your signature that you prefer the focus of the Original Trilogy on Luke Skywalker to a single Saga focused on Anakin/Vader. By your logic, you're not allowed such a preference - the creator says that the story is about Anakin, thus you would have to embrace that and ignore your own opinion.
  6. Heero_Yuy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 4
    ^ Um, I'm NOT the one clinging to Lucas' vision here, silly goose. I've mentioned here and in other threads that I actively ignore Lucas' thoughts on these movies and what their about and look at them on their own merits. The ones who are having a hard time accepting the ST tend to be the ones who bought into the nonsense about Star Wars being the Tragedy of Darth Vader which had no story after his and Palpatine's death. Since I never bought into that retcon, I can accept there is more story to tell in this saga and judge the new trilogy fairly before rejecting them.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  7. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Which is exactly what I'm doing. To me, Return of the Jedi is both the perfect conclusion to the Original Trilogy and to the Star Wars saga as a whole. I don't feel like there is more of that story to be told, at least not on film (I was perfectly happy with the EU doing such a continuation). That's nothing to do with Lucas or anyone else's opinion, only my own.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but at no point did Dredalus ever say "the story is completed because George Lucas said it was". Just that it was analogous to a completed house getting an extension. To me that suggests that he feels the story is concluded on its own merits.

    You're not clinging to the vision of any creator? "If it were, we wouldn't be getting a SEQUEL trilogy." That says that you define whether or not the story is concluded by whether the production company makes more films. The exact opposite of judging the series on its own merits.

    Ah, so you're strawmanning. Right, got it.

    I don't care what anyone says about more story to tell. The Star Wars saga tells a single story, one I feel was adequately concluded with Return of the Jedi. I think it's likely that the Sequel Trilogy will feel like an unrelated epilogue, three tacked-on films that will be more enjoyable than the prequels but do nothing to further the mythology that has given Star Wars its longevity.

    I hope I'm wrong, of course. And I'm willing to give the ST a fair shot when its released. I "reject" nothing, but I feel I am entitled to my own opinions about the narrative.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, May 6, 2013
    CoolyFett and obi-rob-kenobi4 like this.
  8. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    I just hope the kids like it. And things in the disney trilogy look nothing like what is presented in the GL6. Make all new ships, all new troopers n footsoldiers, all new villains, all new heros. Just make an all new war that has nothing to do with the rebellion or clone wars. That would be the best thing for the disney creators to do.
  9. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Continuing Luke's arc is a must for me. Rebuilding the Jedi Order and seeing that they could hold their own without Luke is needed. Anakin and Luke are the main stars of the Saga. Don't know what they will do with Anakin this time around though.
    The story arcs of I-VI for Anakin and IV-IX for Luke make sense imo. Though we have no idea what role if any Anakin will have in the ST and Luke did have a cameo in III. And I'm assuming Luke lives until IX.
  10. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Interestingly, I just posted about this in the Story wise: Do we really need a Sequel Trilogy thread.

    The key point being, as fan of Luke, I feel like his story got complete closure in RotJ. I don't see anything else as necessary to his evolution as a character.
    oierem likes this.
  11. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luke's story done? :confused:How? Yoda gave him the edict to pass on what he has learned didn't he? Or it might just be that whole era is what interests me more than the 'Tragedy of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker'. The fall of the Republic, Jedi Order and Anakin Skywalker etc. Yeah that stuff is interesting but the fight against the Empire, returning of Democracy/the Republic/Jedi Order, Luke gaining a family/finding out what happened to his parents etc is SW to me. Until we get that stuff the story is not over imo.
    Last edited by Force Smuggler, Jun 22, 2014
    Cushing's Admirer likes this.
  12. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    ^ That. Well said, FS. You beat me to it. =D=
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  13. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    If Luke was a real human living, his story would obviously not be over until he died. But as a character who is part of a narrative (with its story, themes, plots...), his story IS over, the journey he started is over, the struggles he had are overcome. That's what "Luke's story is over" means.
    "Passing on what you learned", "rebuilding the world", "going back to have a normal life", "fing a family"... are never part of a narrative. (and of course, the ST will not be about that, but about a new threat, a new conflict, a new journey... which will cheapen the original story IMO).
    Jedi Comedian likes this.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Wouldn't the Jedi Order be rebuilt after thirty years? Perhaps the writers will explore another aspect of Luke's story in this new trilogy.
    Last edited by DRush76, Jun 22, 2014
  15. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Well, first up, I also prefer the OT to the PT, so it isn't that.

    Out of interest, did you read my post in the other thread? If not, I'll quote it here - no point in writing out the same thing over again:

    Show Spoiler

    I don't need to see every moment of a character's life to consider their story over. I just need to see the most important emotional conflict resolved (if they even have one - I guess characters like James Bond and Indiana Jones can just keep having adventures because their development isn't really the focus of the story). Luke is urged by Yoda to pass on his knowledge, true - but I'm perfectly happy for it to be implied he will do that. There's no dramatic journey set up for said teaching, ergo there is nothing to be resolved.

    This isn't to say that there's no story to be told - indeed, in my above quoted post I acknowledge that I enjoyed (in general terms) the EU's continuation of the OT. But I feel like the most dramatically interesting portion of Luke's life ends with the Battle of Endor. Trying to match it on film feels like a fruitless endeavour to me.
  16. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    We don't know that for certain. It'll be started for sure but complete? Doubt it. We don't know how many potential force-users Luke has found. How much info on the past has he found? Will the Rebellion/Republic/Whatever it becomes let Luke train more Jedi for fear of more mini-Vader's popping up? How many will Luke train at once? 1? 2? 5? 10? If he trains only several and trains them completely and depending on how long that would take there might not be many there. Maybe he wants to create a galactic presence/Council thing. Or train them and then realize that the Order doesn't need him anymore or something.
  17. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    That's a pretty limited view of narrative. One I absolutely don't agree with either.

    Nor is it a given the Order will be rebuilt by 7, no. I think it's erroneous many seem to expect so.

    Can I see how some consider 1-6 complete, yes. We were even told it WAS. Now the rules have shifted again. It's up to the individual what they consider part of the Saga. I personally do think Luke is the heart of SW not his father. Nor is his path over by a long shot. Being a mentor and father is just as valid to story and narrative as being a youngster finding his place in the universe.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
  18. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Yes, exactly!

    Aragorn in Lord of the Rings surely goes on to do lots of important things after Return of the King, both politically (rebuilding and ruling Middle-earth) and personally (getting married, raising children). But his dramatic journey was about becoming king, so the novel ends there. Tolkien told us about the rest of his life in the appendices, because it wasn't necessary to the story proper.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    We only saw Luke as a Jedi apprentice. Seeing him in the opposite position and wanting to prevent the next generation from making his mistakes and seeing the Jedi Order rebuilt and able to stand on its own will be the conclusion for me. ROTJ while an ending feels incomplete for me. Luke still has a lot of things to do.
    Last edited by Force Smuggler, Jun 22, 2014
    Cushing's Admirer and Iron_lord like this.
  20. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    What suits a story really depends on the type and the creator there is no singular 'proper way of telling a story'.
  21. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Indeed it is. Regardless of what anyone else says, I currently consider Return of the Jedi to be a satisfying and conclusive ending to both the Original Trilogy and the Saga as a whole.

    I'm totally willing to give the Sequel Trilogy a chance to show me it can deliver an even more worthwhile ending that brings an even greater sense of narrative resonance to the Saga, and I truly hope it does, but at the moment I'm not exactly brimming with optimism. I love RotJ, and it will be hard to beat in my eyes.

    Luke is my favourite character, but I personally think that it's his relationship with his father that is the heart of Star Wars.

    That's something that holds true regardless of whether you look at just the OT or Episode I-VI. I don't think it will apply to the Saga once the Sequel Trilogy is released - I'm hoping that JJ et al can provide something equally or more compelling to replace it.

    His path? As in, the events of his life and his contribution to the galaxy as a whole? No, it isn't. Most likely Luke Skywalker's most significant contribution to the galaxy will take place after RotJ.

    But his story is, as it currently stands in the film canon, over. He defeated the Empire, gained a true understanding of the Force and made peace with his father. He accomplished all the goals he set out with.

    Just as valid to story and narrative, but not as valid to this story and narrative. If the focus is on Luke being a mentor and father then it will be a new story.
  22. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The war was won in LOTR. It is not over in SW. Luke is what? 23? You mean to tell me his story is over? He won't do anything new to add to his legacy?
  23. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    Again, I feel Luke does have a lot to do. But I don't feel those things are necessarily worthy of being part of the same story. For me, that they are implied is enough, just as I don't need to watch 30 years of Aragorn holding court at the end of Lord of the Rings.


    That is absolutely correct. All I can is offer my opinion on the story as it currently stands. Inevitably, we will all have our own feelings on what does and does not feel like a conclusive ending.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Jun 22, 2014
  24. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    The war is as good as over in Return of the Jedi. The clear intention of the film is to show that the Rebels have dealt the Empire a decisive blow from which they will never recover. This is true of the original version of RoTJ, and only reinforced by the added scenes of galactic celebrations in the Special Edition. Mopping up the remnants of the Empire is nothing compared to the conflict up to that point.

    Besides, the story and the war are not synonymous (which is ironic, given the title of the franchise). Does every second world war film have to end with VE Day (or VJ Day)?

    A character's story might be over when they're nine. It might not start till they're 90. Age isn't the only thing that guides narrative.

    Again, Luke may very well do the most important work of his life after Return of the Jedi, but that doesn't make it the most dramatic or emotionally fulfilling.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Jun 22, 2014
  25. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    You think RotJ is a conclusive ending? Wow, okay. Our tastes differ a lot but it's cool. :cool: To me, it was an ending but not a good conclusion. Luke still has a load to contribute as FS has said.
    Force Smuggler likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.