Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by KarenTraviss, Sep 17, 2005.

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  1. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    Thanks.
  2. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    May 8, 2006
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    Source please. Because this smells like bull dung. The longest tour that I know of is 6 years no more. No, I googled it. Its on one guys pay stub and might be a typo. Also it seems to be for the one year tour guys and its just extending it to match other people in there unit.

    Again this is off topic. Why have you brought it up. The only reason I can think of is to try to get this tread locked.

    So to get back on topic let me ask you two questions.
    1) Tarviss Grand Army of the Republic Order of Battle to 320 clones total for 3 years.
    2) The 501st is now only one clone trooper.

    Do you agree with this Recon. Yes or No.
  3. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

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    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Huh? 320? 3.2 Million? 1 Clone? Recon or Retcon? Where is this coming from?
  4. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    So what size is a division.
    From ITW:AotC. ?Veteran JedI Knights in charge of eight corps of 36,864 troops each. All other divisions are led by specially trained clones.? So it appears that a Division is a Corp that is not led by a JedI.

    From SWBF2 we know that a Division is at least 1 Legion in size. We know that in a very short time and also at the same time there were complete Legions of the 501st Division on Felucia, Kashyyyk (land and space), Utapau and Coruscant (temple). Also some may still be on Mygeeto. But anyway that?s at least four different locations. Meaning four Legions which matches the ITW:AotC.

    So in conclusion a Division is Corp sized and that there are millions of Divisions

    Ah, excellent. Someone else that didn't get the memos: 1) Don't personally attack other users on the boards and 2) You're not allowed to "accept" concessions where none had been offered. Do try to enjoy yourself on your vacation!
  5. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    I?m just showing absurdity by being absurd. Someone misquoted saying 1 Division=1 clone trooper. Which is not what he meant since he was guessing. I was just showing what would happen if it was true.
    1) Tarviss Grand Army of the Republic Order of Battle to 320 clones total for 3 years.
    2) The 501st is now only one clone trooper.

    I just thought it was funny to see people doing back flips to defend it.

    But anyway see my other post. A Division is a Corp that is not lead by an JedI and there are millions of them. Meaning a Corp is 36,864 multiplied by a low ball 2 million. Making 73,728,000,000 (73.728 Billion) clone troopers.

    We can also use this to get a number on GAR. If a GAR takes 80 Corp/Divisions. That?s 25,000 GAR and Battle Armies.
  6. dp4m Chosen One

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    K, that's what I was looking for, thank you. :)
  7. ARC-77 Jedi Knight

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    Well, I figure I might as wll toss in my two cents.

    First of all, right off the Wookiee:
    This would indicate that the GAR was growing constantly, gaining in numbers despite losses. There's an incredible increase in size in just a year, and there's no reason to say it didn't continue increasing up until Kamino's cloning facilities were damaged.

    And in support of this:
    We do see clones crewing Acclamators and Venators, but I don't see why people say they're part of the GAR. Army clones wouldn't pilot Navy vessels. Sources do state that there's a Republic Navy, which would be a different branch than the Army.

    There are various other small things, too, like recruitment such as from COMPOR (from one of Insider's HNN pieces), and situations such as Cestus and Qiilura where a relatively minor clone force was needed. Don't forget the Spaarti clones, either.
  8. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    StarKiller_Outrider: I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of "division" here.

    In the Grand Army of the Republic, "division" isn't a term for any specific level of hierarchy (the name "Legion" replaces the term "division" as used in other militaries). Instead, "division" in the GAR simply seems to mean a unit of any size.

    But, with all respect those who want a large GAR, and to what may have been intended by Curtis Saxton when writing AotC:ICS, there's no need for any argument about this because Leland Chee has made it clear that the line in ICS:AotC isn't to be read as implying millions of Legion-sized units in the GAR, or millions of squads and platoons, but simply millions of clone troopers - which is entirely within the range of meaning of the sentence.

    However: does ICS:AotC really mention a corps of 36,864 troopers? And eight corps forming two "Battle Armies"? Becuase that would make it very likely that the decision to use a version of the established Imperial Army order of battle for the GAR was made at an early date - probably before AotC was released.

    And then we find "1.2 million" clone troopers implied in the AotC script and used in the early stages of the Clone Wars: that looks like it represent the equivalent of an Imperial Sector Army - two Systems Armies of four field Armies each, 1,179,684 men...

    ... in G-canon!!! :eek: [face_laugh]

    The only real question is, how you reconcile "200,000 units" at Geonosis with the 294,921 men of two full four-corps field Armies? Is there somewhere else that we could place two additional corps of troopers? [face_thinking]

    Anyone? o_O

    - The Imperial Ewok
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Antarian Rangers!
  10. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    I wish. I love the Antarian Rangers. I hope they get the same level of background treatment as the Mandalorians.


    And as for the issue of hard numbers...I don't think it will ever be reconciled. George may say 1.2 million and Karen may say 3 million. When you get right down to it, though...an author will use the hard amount of "how ever many I need to tell the story". Meh.
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I'm just annoyed that the original Antarian Rangers in Freedom's Sons got thrown out.

    Hell, BEFORE Freedom's Sons there was ANOTHER group in Wanted by Cracken.
  12. browwiw Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2007
    star 3
    The Rangers do get a write up (and prestige class) in WotC's Hero's Guide. Kind of like a strange mix between swoop thugs and special forces operators totally dedicated to the Jedi. They would be a great addition to Clone Wars EU. Especially during Order 66...
  13. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

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    Wasn't it 200,000 units ready for delivery? How about another 100,000 stationed on Kamino for defense, like we see later...
  14. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

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    Dec 1, 2005
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    but there could be more than the 3 Cities mentioned on kamino that are producing Clone Troopers.
  15. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Is the number in the Kamino garrison identified as 100,000? That works nicely...

    I do like the idea that the Republic already had enough troops under Jedi authority to form half a Battle Army, though. How big are the Coruscant Security Force and the Senate Guard, anyway...? o_O [face_thinking]

    - The Imperial Ewok
  16. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2006
    star 2
    Not really, I have posted my reasoning and evidence. I think I?m right on the money.
    Which there are many and don?t forget the Battle Armies.
    Evidence to back this up. So far Division has only been used with Corp and Legion (most likely Corp size here to) groups. I know in Iraq a Division is specific size military unit. Like the 10 Iraq Division which consisted of 4 brigades + 2 battalions + 1 engineer company and 1 bomb disposal company. I also know that the US has the 4th Division (The Digital Division). So no, Division appears to be about Corp size and called a Division if it does not have a JedI general.
    I?m fine with the size of the 1st GAR since its cannon that there are many GAR?s and Battle Armies. Defiantly since the clone deaths hits 3.2 million 7 months into the war of known battles. With hundreds of unknown battles.
    What does AotC:ICS have to do with this. Were talking about ITW:AotC.
    Since it was ITW:AotC I guess its not clear. He appears to not be sure since he say ?guess?.
    Well since the only definition of a Division was Corp or Legion size. Yes it does imply Billions of clone troopers made just by the Kolimoans. Unknown Billions made by the nationalized clone masters.
    I don?t know if the ICS:AotC mentions Corps. But I do know the ITW:AotC does. So yes.
    No two full Battle Armies plus eight Corps. Yoda had one Full Battle Army and Windu the other Battle army. Veteran JedI commanded the eight Corps. Since there are no Battle Armies in a GAR I would have to assume that he eight Corps are the GAR units and the Battle Armies are about equal in size. With this we get a raugh number of clones at Genosis. 8 Corps = 294,912 clones. 2 Battle Armies = 589,824 clones. For a grand total of 884,736 clones. That makes 4.4 clones per Unit out of 200,000 units.
    Good they should have stuck to it and not get this goofy GAR Order of Battle. But it doesn?t matter its cannon.
    No they mean Units. 200,000 now and 1 million more soon. Its shown in AotC that a Unit is 6-144 clones.
    Yes, 200,000 Units at 6 clones a Unit = 1.2 million clones. But that?s just for the GAR we don?t know about the Battle Armies size.
    Well yes the first 200,000 Units would = an Imperial Sector Army.
    Easy. This actually helps
  17. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    May 8, 2006
    star 2
    Your ignoring my posts.
    1) Tarviss Grand Army of the Republic Order of Battle to 320 clones total for 3 years.
    2) The 501st is now only one clone trooper.

    Do you agree with this Recon. Yes or No.
    I am going to have to ask you to concede this point. (Note I am not taking a concession or coming to an agreement or any passive-aggressive version of accepting a concession. Also any implied insults real or imaginary are directed towards the argument and not directed to anyone living or dead or Zombie American).
  18. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    I have faith that it will eventually be reconciled. It will just take some time like the Executor length. Defiantly when the new SW TV show come on. Plus with the already established cannon material we have over 3.2 million dead clones from known battles within 7 months.
    Yes, George says 1.2 million Units. 6 to 144 clones per Unit (lower to upper limit). Within the first month of the war.
    Yes, Karen say 3.2 million for the first GAR which we know there are many more and Battle Armies.
    There were suppose to be no hard numbers ?Just a lot?.

    By the way.
    1) Tarviss Grand Army of the Republic Order of Battle to 320 clones total for 3 years.
    2) The 501st is now only one clone trooper.

    Do you agree with this Recon. Yes or No.
    I am going to have to ask you to concede this point. (Note I am not taking a concession or coming to an agreement or any passive-aggressive version of accepting a concession. Also any implied insults real or imaginary are directed towards the argument and not directed to anyone living or dead or Zombie American).
  19. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    I?m fine with them being the privet security force at all JedI Temples.
  20. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    Yes, with a Unit being ether 6 or 144 Clones each (as seen in AotC). So at Genosis there were between 1.2 million to 28.8 million. In the ItW:AotC the first 1.2 million Units are prototypes and are the early delivery for a bonuses.
    In the Battle for Kamino the City of Tipoca had 1 Million clone Troopers a week or two away from being finished plus 1,000 ARC Troopers. All of the 1 million clone troopers were killed in the battle and most of the ARC Troopers of course. With most of the 1 million teen clones killed and all of the 1 million infants destroyed. This devastating set back apparently had no impact on Kamino?s clone production ability.
  21. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    With a population of 1 Billion and cloning of themselves. They have to have more cities. I dimly remember seeing 4 other cities around Tipoca in SW BF2. But anyway I believe they have 100 Cities.
  22. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    No it was 1 million nearly ready clone troopers and 1,000 ARC troopers. It was implied that by the time the 1 million was ready the next 1 million nearly ready clones would be available to garrison Tipoca. So each City has 1 million clone garrison.
    Made up of the privet security force that they use to police there Temples. Sure, but remember they are a security force not Army force.
    For the senate building I believe it said that it was 3 or 5 times bigger then the 1st GAR that was also garrisoned at the Coruscant Senate building. So the Senate Guard and Senate Building Security force would be about 9 to 15 million men.


  23. ARC-77 Jedi Knight

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    Where are you getting your info for the casualties at Kamino? Are you talking about the first or second battle? There was relatively low damage at the first, which was set up to fail by Dooku and Sidious with faulty intel, and the second causing only moderate casualties.

    There were only 100 ARCs, by the way, not 1,000.

    Edit: As to divisions, I remember hearing that the term hasn't always meant a large force, but simply referred to a ship's marine forces onboard, making it a pretty flexible term.
  24. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    I'm amazed that you can say that with a straight face, honestly.
  25. StarKiller_Outrider Jedi Knight

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    Clone Wars Trade Paperback volume 1.
    First
    ?Cargo platform C-22.?Captured?. ?Security sector six?Overrun?. ?Central armory?Invaded?. ?Level nine?Lost?. They lost everything but the basement. Which had the baby clone maker. They were taking so heavy casualties that 1,000 ARC?s were a large troop infusion. Which pretty much shouts that all of the 1 million clone troopers were killed and most of the teens and sadly all the babies in the upper levels. Basicly the whole stock of clones were wiped out at Tipoca. But latter in Triple Zero we see full size clones nearly ready to be deployed. So that gives up a lower limit on clone growth times.
    Yes, they were lied to on the location for a major power generator. It is unknown if it was just a generator for Tipoca?s planetary shield or a node for other cities. But once it was clear the generator was not there it would be imposable to bring the city shields down to blow them up. With two new Acclamators arriving they had to leave or die.
    I?m not that familiar with the second one. Is that the mando attack. But the first was devastating to the clone production for Tipoca. At least 3 million clones of various stages lost.
    Not according to SW Republic Commando game. Jango was making ARC?s 1,000 a batch. With flash memory it would be easy to make more in the future.
    But you do believe it can be. Like in real life, the 10 Iraq Division which consisted of 4 brigades + 2 battalions + 1 engineer company and 1 bomb disposal company or the US 4th Division (The Digital Division). Do you have any evidence of other size Divisons in SW.
    The Republics troop landing ship is the Acclamator I. Which carries 16,000 clone troopers and vehicle crews. That falls within the Corps/Legion range. Since we normally see two Acclamators together. That?s more evidence for Corps/Division.

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