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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Gun Control and Foreign Nations...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Oct 2, 2002.

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  1. JediSmuggler

    JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 1999
    Ender_Sai:

    Quite frankly, some of the states with the least number of gun control laws have the lowest crime rates in the U.S.A.

    Look at the crime rates of Vermont, New Hampshire, Idaho, and Montana, and compare them to those of England and Australia.

    The problem is not the guns, it's the criminals. Gun control is a placebo that actually does more harm than good because it does not address the real problems that this country faces. Instead it scapegoats a part of the population that has done nothing wrong.
     
  2. Force of Nature

    Force of Nature Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    "You mean you don't have gun licences? Wow."

    That's was my reaction, E_S, but I'm not clear what it really means because yodafett999 was talking about registered and unregistered guns, so there must be some way of distinguishing between people who have guns legally and people who have them illegally.

    When I was in this thread before, I was beginning to conclude that our idea of the USA's 'gun culture' was over-egged and it was just a matter of their allowing people to keep a wider variety of guns (most of which I cannot believe are necessary, but that's another matter). I already knew that a LOT of people in the USA don't have and don't want a gun, and I was beginning to think that gun ownership by the rest was regulated more than we tend to appreciate. But now I'm confused - nothing unusual there. :)

    I have the impression that the laws about how (legally owned) guns are to be kept are different, so I'll pass over that. Let's suppose that I'm a police officer and I pull someone over on a motoring offence and in the back of his vehicle I find that he has a gun (which we'll assume is unloaded and in a proper carrying case, not just rolling around loose), how would I check that he's entitled to have that gun in his possession at all?



     
  3. JediSmuggler

    JediSmuggler Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 1999
    Force of Nature:

    Usually, cops will run and check to see if you've had a rap sheet.

    The U.S. law on this is simple: If you have a felony conviction, or have been declared mentally incompetent, or have done one of a few other things (there is a complete list at 18 USC 922), you can't own a gun. Some state laws are tougher, but for the most part, no state requires a licence to own a gun.

    In this country, it's generally felt, even by those who don't have a gun or want to have a gun, that people have a right to own one if they wish.

    Generally, if someone's not hurting anyone else, people will "live and let live."

    EDIT: Corrected typo.
     
  4. Force of Nature

    Force of Nature Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    OK ... although I think you meant that the mentally incompetent, etc. CAN'T have a gun. ;)

    On the other hand, if I were a criminal I don't think I'd be very likely to give a policeman my real ID. :)
     
  5. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    I think you should have to pass a gun safety test before you can buy a gun.

    You have to before you get a drivers license, why not a gun which is even more dangerous?
     
  6. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Full Discolsure: JediSmuggler is my older brother.

    I think you should have to pass a gun safety test before you can buy a gun.

    You have to before you get a drivers license, why not a gun which is even more dangerous?


    But you do not need to have a driver's license to buy or own a car. I know several people who have purchased a car or received one as a gift without having a driver's license at the time.

    Also, consider the case of my family. My grandfather owned several rifles, some of which had been in the family for many years. After he died, they were passed on to my parents. My parents did not buy the guns, would you require them to get a license before they could inherit them? Would you deny them a piece of our family history because they do not have a license?

    If your complaint is that people do not know how to respect guns or use them appropriately, why not require a gun safety course as part of the curriculum in the schools? Even though I do not plan to ever buy a gun, I have received gun safety instruction so that I understand and do not fear guns. You do not even need to have a gun in the classroom for such instruction. I have neve even picked up a handgun, and the only rifles I have shot were at scout camp.

    Such a course would only need to take a week or so to cover the basic material. Such a course could save lives by preventing an accident. They teach similar courses in CPR and rescue breathing as part of the curriculum and have shown that, even years later, those courses help save lives. Why not something similar?

    As much as some people here have made disparaging comments about the NRA, they do have a very comprehensive safety program, probably the best in the nation, if not the world. They have sent representatives to schools to teach the importance of gun safety, even developing a mascot (Eddie Eagle) to help teach little kids to be safe around guns. They have a lot of the infrastructure in place to help with such a program.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  7. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    You totally miss the damn point once again F_I_D, tell him what he's won! And seriously, you remind me more of Il Duce with every post.

    There is no point to what you've been saying. You hide behind issues and act like America is the be all end all of human suffering and bad behavior.

    We can be holier than thou because we don't have guns for the simple reason that we let go of something that was only designed to kill and we're ok after it! Who'd have thought it huh? And our citizens can walk around feeling safe! They're not afraid of evil wobbers and wapists either!


    Wow.....what stunning talk. Many of what you've said can also be said to be the result of other policies and natural occurances as well. LoL funny, people claim America is arrogrant. How stunningly hypocritical.

    Okay, here goes. America is better, your countries aren't. Haha! I'm an American, blah blah blah. See how this goes? Round and round we go. Your country is no better than ours, oh by the way, aren't you an Aussie? I've heard some bad things about Aussie policies that makes our gun problem look stupid.


    Well, Fire_truc, all right gun don't kill, but people do. Still, it's a LOT easier for people to kill with a gun in their hand.
    Easy to shoot. Easy to aciddentelly let go a bullet. You are scared, you are stressed, and BAM, there goes the bullet. "I didn't mean to, it was an accident!". Well, that's too late.
    Now imagine the same person without a gun. Consider she has a kitchen knife in her hands, because she heard a noise in the living room and she's afraid someone could have broken in. Too kill the person, she would have to STAB. And that means get close, raise your arm and stab with strength. And to KILL the ennemy, you must actually stab numerous times. Thus, no "I didn't mean to, it was an accident"...


    You're one of those people that would sue Starbucks for hot coffee spilling in your lap ACCIDENTALLY, aren't you?


    Not true, haven't you ever heard of accidental stabbings? They're rare but they do occur.
     
  8. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Your comments about our problems in Ireland. Well they're all caused by something we affectionately call terrorists. You know, t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-t-s?? Without them, Ireland would be one of the most peaceful, crime-free, beutiful countries in the world.
     
  9. Force of Nature

    Force of Nature Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 1999
    "My grandfather owned several rifles, some of which had been in the family for many years. After he died, they were passed on to my parents. My parents did not buy the guns, would you require them to get a license before they could inherit them? Would you deny them a piece of our family history because they do not have a license?"

    Kimball, rifles aren't particularly common in the UK and I don't know anyone who's inherited one, but inheriting one or more shotguns isn't unusual and should be no problem here, provided the beneficiary is a responsible person of good character (and I'm sure your father and/or mother would qualify). Basically, the person concerned needs to have referees of standing in the community who have known her/him for a number of years to support her/his application. S/he also needs to demonstrate to the police that s/he can and intends to comply with current requirements for secure storage of the weapons (and, of course, any associated ammunition).

    Look at it this way ... if someone bequeaths a family heirloom to an adult member of his family, then it becomes that person's responsibility. If the heirloom happens to be a vintage car, then the beneficiary can either drive it on the roads (assuming he has a driving licence and the car is duly taxed and insured) or keep it locked in a garage. Obviously, the police would advise that it be kept securely but they're not about to enforce that: a vintage car's pretty conspicuous at the best of times and, even if the worst befalls and it's used in a ram-raid, a smashed up vintage car's even more conspicuous - indeed, the chances are that it won't make it away from the scene of the crime! A stolen gun, however, could easily be used in any number of armed robberies, or worse.

    But if the bequest is made to someone under age, then a responsible adult has to take charge of said heirloom until the beneficiary comes of age. This is where the 'training' element comes in. In the same way that learner drivers must be supervised and aren't allowed out alone until they've passed their driving test, a youngster planning to use 'his' gun in future must be supervised whilst learning how to do so. This is where the referees, and the discretion of the Chief Constable, come in: if they aren't convinced that he can be trusted to behave responsibly, he isn't going to get a licence. That doesn't mean the gun must go; it just means it must remain in the possession of someone who can be trusted.
     
  10. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Some crazy sniper dude has been killing people over the weekend in America.

    Kaine's prediction: Some video game companies are gonna be sued.
     
  11. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Your comments about our problems in Ireland. Well they're all caused by something we affectionately call terrorists. You know, t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-t-s?? Without them, Ireland would be one of the most peaceful, crime-free, beutiful countries in the world.

    I'd ask you if you knew how to spell moron, but I don't wanna sound flamish. Oh, you would huh? Well the statement still stands.


    Some crazy sniper dude has been killing people over the weekend in America.

    Yeah, and we're the ignorant ones? It's in Maryland. You know. M-A-R-Y-L-A-N-D, just in case you didn't know how to spell it.

    Kaine's prediction: Some video game companies are gonna be sued.

    FID's prediction: Kaine doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
     
  12. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Thats it. I'm not taking this crap from you. I'm not responding to any more of your posts. This isn't debating, its school yard taunting, and thats not what i'm interested in.
     
  13. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    If the heirloom happens to be a vintage car, then the beneficiary can either drive it on the roads (assuming he has a driving licence and the car is duly taxed and insured) or keep it locked in a garage.

    Or drive it in his backyard.

    Would you require that I have a license to own a gun and use it on my own property, for target practice, pest control, and in the rare case it's needed, self defense?
     
  14. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    Well, yes. So that you don't shoot yourself in the foot or something. I mean, if a police officer stopped the driver of a car that didn't have a license, and the driver of the car kept saying "i'm only going to the local store! It's not far, and doesn't require much skill!" the officer would laugh in his face.
     
  15. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    No, you didn't read my post carefully enough. I said it would only be used on my property. If I had a car that someone else transported legally onto my property, I can drive it up and down my driveway, around my house, and all over my yard without a license. So as long as I had a gun and ammunition that were legally transported to my property, and I only ever fired the gun on my own property, why would that require a license?
     
  16. KaineDamo

    KaineDamo Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2002
    It's a matter of safety, not property.
     
  17. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    If it's a matter of public safety, perhaps you can require a license for carrying a gun in public (which I think many states already do).

    Personal safety isn't quite the same thing. I could be driving a car on my own property and hit a tree, but the government still doesn't require me to be licensed to use a motor vehicle on my own property.

    So I ask you again, why would the government require a license for me to keep a gun if it would only ever be used on my own property?
     
  18. DarthYama

    DarthYama Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2001
    I think it's the fact that Vermont and Montana have very few people.
     
  19. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Aren't crime rates usually measured per capita?
     
  20. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Thats it. I'm not taking this crap from you. I'm not responding to any more of your posts. This isn't debating, its school yard taunting, and thats not what i'm interested in.


    Yeah, and yours weren't. Hm...I'm sure. As opposed to your 'debating'?


    Your comments about our problems in Ireland. Well they're all caused by something we affectionately call terrorists. You know, t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-t-s?? Without them, Ireland would be one of the most peaceful, crime-free, beutiful countries in the world.

    Silly Irish-man, you just insulted ME! So I think I have a good right to insult you. If not, Irish-man, tell me what you call it.

    I'd like to add that your comment about the sniper-style shootings really offended me because you make a joke about it. And I live in Maryland. We get crapped on enough as a state in America, I won't take it from Euro-folk making jokes about it.
     
  21. Darth_Deus

    Darth_Deus Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2000
    Crime rates are measured per capita. That is why they are called RATES. You get a ticket for travelling at a RATE of 130mph, whether or not you actually travel 130 miles.

    And gun control laws in England have resulted in increased rates of violent crime, robbery, and burglary because the perps know the citizens won't have a gun to shoot them.

    A county in Georgia made it mandatory for home owners to own guns. Guess what happened to the crime rate! It went down. Would you break into a home if you knew there was a very good chance there was a gun there?

     
  22. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    And gun control laws in England have resulted in increased rates of violent crime, robbery, and burglary because the perps know the citizens won't have a gun to shoot them.


    They're going to want you to give info on this. Do you have it? I've also heard England has a high crime rate.
     
  23. Warlord_Zsinj

    Warlord_Zsinj Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2002
    All right, I haven't read all of page 5 and none of page 6 because it doesn't look like anything's gonna change, and I'm impatient to say my piece.

    In Australia, when they got rid of guns the crime rate increased by 56%. The criminals no longer had anything to be afraid of. Just because crimes with guns don't happen, it doesn't mean that gun control has made you safe.

    In Switzerland, the citizenry is required to own automatic assault rifles issued by the government in case the nation is ever invaded. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world.

    Also, someone mentioned an incident in Texas in whcih a citizen used his firearm to stop crime. He was right. Some time ago, a police officer(I don't remember where) pulled a guy over for a traffic violation. The guy pulled a gun and shot the officer through the window. He then got out of his car and leaned over the officer to continue firing into his chest. Now, as I understand it, Texas is the only State that allows someone to carry a rifle(not shotguns and sidearms must be liscensed) in their vehicle. Well, a citizen saw this taking place and pulled out his rifle and shot the offender effectively saving the officer's life.

    Only two percent of firearm related deaths in correlation with defending the home result in an accident.

    The rate of children shooting other children on accident is going down.

    The only way a trigger-locks law can be enforced is by random - and thus illegal - searches. Do YOU want the police showing up at your home to see if you're properly using trigger locks?

    Now, in reference to the Switzerland government wanting their citizens to have guns, don't you think it's logical to have an armed citizenry to protect the US against foreign aggression?

    And did anyone follow the link I posted on page one of this topic?


    Warlord Zsinj
     
  24. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Hail to the warlord. :D
     
  25. Kit'

    Kit' Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 1999
    In Australia, when they got rid of guns the crime rate increased by 56%. The criminals no longer had anything to be afraid of. Just because crimes with guns don't happen, it doesn't mean that gun control has made you safe.


    Wrong. [face_plain]

    The rate of crime went up for a short while (and not that high!), and is now dropping again. Can you post some stats for this that don't come from the NRA?????? Mean while I'll try and find some of my own.

    Now, as many people have pointed out, crime rates aren't always linked to guns and gun related crime. Did you know, most of Australian crimes are perpertrated by people weilding a knife and not a gun? Did you realise that crime can go up simply because the population has expanded and because people are living in a higher-density area?


    And, once again to reiterate for like the fifth time, Australian's did not ban all guns. Only automatic and (some) semi-automatics were banned. That means that people still have guns!


    I've heard some bad things about Aussie policies that makes our gun problem look stupid.

    Like what FID???? Maybe you could enlighten us as to what our "stupid" policies are.

    I think some people in this thread (on both sides) need to calm down and stop inciting each other into a flame war!

    [face_plain]
     
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