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Gun Control (v.2)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by SaberGiiett7, Sep 9, 2002.

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  1. obhavekenobi78

    obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    O.J. Simpson WAS proven guilty in a court of law. A civil one.
     
  2. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    And why do I have to prove I'm not guilty of being a terrible driver before I can get a driver's license??
     
  3. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    How exactly, other than by taking the written and road tests, do you prove you're not a terrible driver before you have a license to drive?

    If you don't have a license yet... you don't have a driving record.

    As for guns, no one should be taking away a person's right to bear arms... but I think it's ridiculous that any law-abiding citizen trying to obtain a gun for whatever lawful reason would have any objection whatsoever to having to go through the proper checks and training to ensure they are qualified to handle such a weapon of destruction (I can't think of any other context in which guns are used... except for the express purpose of killing people... but that's a problem with human society as a whole...).


     
  4. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    If you really are a bad driver, you will not pass the test. Over half the people in my driver's ed class failed, in fact, so yes, they do actually fail people.

    In any case, the tests show you are knowledgable about driving laws and how to operate a car safely. Why can't we have the same thing for guns? Make sure people are knowledgable about gun laws, and make sure they can use one safely? If they can, their "rights" will not be violated. If they can't, they should not under any circumstances be allowed to own a gun. The public's safety is more important.
     
  5. Darth_SnowDog

    Darth_SnowDog Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 10, 2001
    Rebecca: I agree... see my edited post above.
     
  6. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    Ah, ok, I misunderstood.
     
  7. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    It sounds good to me, no real problem with a test or a license.

    Do people really ever fail a drivers test though? I know a few people I wouldn't trust with a car, but for some reason they have licenses. It seems like a flawed system.

    See, my problem isn't with being tested. It's with the fact that the test is not going to solve crime or anything like that, and people are going to say, well, that didn't work, we should just ban guns altogether. And that is the thing I don't want to happen.

    Honestly, should licenses not work out as a deterrant to accidents and crimes, what is the next logical step? I think the first thing will be an attempt to rid America of guns.

     
  8. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Point 1: If gun licensing tests worked the same way as driving license tests, you'd probably still have a large number of gun-related accidents. (Ever notice the people driving next to you? You realize that no matter how badly they're driving now, they somehow managed to pass a driving test.)


    Point 2:
    I can't think of any other context in which guns are used... except for the express purpose of killing people...

    Guns aren't just used to shoot people. Granted, the guns that work best on large animals aren't handguns, but still, you're failing to consider people who use guns to hunt or protect themselves and their property (e.g. their pets) from animals.

    Edit: And the other lawful use of a gun is self-defense (against another human). Do you see something wrong with that (in principle)?
     
  9. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    Point 1: If gun licensing tests worked the same way as driving license tests, you'd probably still have a large number of gun-related accidents. (Ever notice the people driving next to you? You realize that no matter how badly they're driving now, they somehow managed to pass a driving test.)

    And you don't think that if anyone of the driving age was allowed to get out and drive a car on their own with no licensing, there'd be even MORE auto accidents?
     
  10. Maveric

    Maveric Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 1999
    Point 1: If gun licensing tests worked the same way as driving license tests, you'd probably still have a large number of gun-related accidents. (Ever notice the people driving next to you? You realize that no matter how badly they're driving now, they somehow managed to pass a driving test.)

    Not necessarily. How do you know that person has a license? My wife works for an insurance company and frequently she gets a claim involving a wreck in which the driver was an illegal alien and therefore did not have a license. Does this stop them from driving? No. Accidents are just that, accidents. No one intends for them to occur, yet they do.


    Point 2:
    I can't think of any other context in which guns are used... except for the express purpose of killing people...

    Guns aren't just used to shoot people. Granted, the guns that work best on large animals aren't handguns, but still, you're failing to consider people who use guns to hunt or protect themselves and their property (e.g. their pets) from animals.

    Edit: And the other lawful use of a gun is self-defense (against another human). Do you see something wrong with that (in principle)?


    But that is a rarity. I have seen people state that they could prevent being robbed or raped if they carried a gun. My state has a concealed hand gun permit you can obtain by taking and becoming certified in the use of a gun. Since it was enacted, the crime rate HAS gone down, but not tremendously. You have to be carrying your gun, and have the presence of mind to use it. Not every one does.
     
  11. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    All right, an addendum to point 1: I've known licensed drivers who are still bad drivers and prone to accidents. The point is, licensing gun use won't necessarily solve anything.


    As for self-defense, it should be a rarity - I don't want to have to defend myself daily against assault. But I still might like to be prepared with a weapon suitable for self-defense against an attacker who could very likely be carrying a gun.
     
  12. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    The material point, though is that a concealed carry permit doesn't cause crime, and it can in fact help to reduce it.

    The idea is that those who are going to follow the law are not the poeple we need to target. It's the people who already want to break the law, people who don't intend to get licenses, or register their guns, who cause the majority of the problems with guns. Thus, law can't regulate that majority of people who are most likely to misuse their guns. So the problem isn't a legislative one. Trying to solve a non-legislative problem with law doesn't work too well.

    An armed and educated populace would be a much better step towards reducing crime and weapon misuse, IMO.
     
  13. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Look wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry?

    Anyone who wants to complain about taking a class on gun safety who has never fired a gun before or ever handled one or seen one and decides they want one is down right scary.

    Complaining about this shows you lack patience and common sense. Two big things I think people who want to keep guns in their houses or on them need to have.

    Why not do the right thing and learn how to use it properly and shut up about it??????? If you want that gun then you need to pass a training course on how to load, unload, clean, take apart and how to fire the gun properly.

    Now of course there are some folks in the U.S. who are ex-military or law enforcment, or have learned how to use a gun the right way, but there are MANY people out there who can't say the same thing, and these people have the RIGHT to buy a firearm and not learn how to use it properly???? Sorry but you either show that you can use it the right way or you don't get one. It's as simple as that.
     
  14. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't said anything about classes except that they are not going to decrease crime.

    If all you want to get rid of with licensing is the accidental misuse of firearms, I agree mandatory classes on responsibility might help. Accidents happen to drivers with licenses too, though. So I wouldn't expect mandatory classes to eradicate gun use accidents, either.

    I'm not complaining, and in fact I would have no problem if tomorrow I had to take a test to prove I was a responsible gun owner. I'm just saying, I don't think it will accomplish what you seem to think it will.
     
  15. Rebecca191

    Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 1999
    If all you want to get rid of with licensing is the accidental misuse of firearms, I agree mandatory classes on responsibility might help. Accidents happen to drivers with licenses too, though. So I wouldn't expect mandatory classes to eradicate gun use accidents, either.

    But those classes would lower gun accidents. You really don't think there'd be more automobile accidents if anyone was allowed to drive a car without being licensed?
     
  16. StarFire

    StarFire Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2001
    What kind of accidents are we talking about? Morons shooting themselves in the foot, or kids getting into their parents gun collection?
     
  17. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    Yes it will cut down on those stupid accidents with guns if more people out there know how to use a gun.

    Not too mention it will also feed on to the illusion that having a gun is going to prevent someone from robbing you. If someone wants to Robb you they will, and they are not going to be thinking about if you have a gun or not. Especially if they get the drop on you. They will not walk up to you and say "hi I will be your robber tonight". What good is that gun going to do you if your unlocking your door and all of a sudden a criminals gun is already pinned to your head???

    That is why I say there are very good alternatives to not getting Robbed or being taken advantage of. First know what is around you. Senses is your first act of defense. Keep your guard up at all times, especially in places you've never been before. Avoid going to places which attract trouble. Just knowing what's going on around you helps cut down on people sneaking up on you.

    All I'm asking is more responsibility out of the citizens of the U.S. What good our your so called rights if you aren't responsible with them???? A background check and license isn't enough. Training must go into that process so that the person going in with no experience of firing a gun will come out knowing the weapon left and right and if the time should ever arise when you need it then you will be ready.

    Also for all your conspiracy theorists out there who think the government will take us over if they try to take away our guns, then why not have everyone who owns a gun know how to use it effectively when the enemy comes knocking. Think about that one. Be prepared. It's a shame that all people don't go and get training in how to use a gun, but there is a way to make them. That is make it a requirement under law that if you want a gun then you will be certified before buying tha gun.
     
  18. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    I know my weapons left and right, and no amount of awareness is a substitute for both awareness and the availability of a weapon. Knowing your environment and its dangers is a way to avoid trouble, whereas weapons are insurance for being able to get out of trouble if you find yourself in it. Two different aspects of self defense, those, and neither substitutable for the other.

    Edit: What good is not having a gun going to do you even if you are aware of a robber's presence? If a robber gets the drop on you, youre screwed with or without a gun. If you get the drop on a robber without a gun, you have no real advantage, especially if they have a gun. I suppose you could beg for mercy.

    I thought we were talking about accidents and the responsible use of guns, not crime.

     
  19. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    They are both related. I'm playing devils advocate.

    That even the most experienced person with a gun who may have a gun at the time of an attack or whatever may not help him/her get out alive. Crime goes hand and hand with this, because like I said and you agreed that knowing where you are and what's around you is also a way of self defense.

    This is what I'm looking for here.

    Why settle for average in knowing what your doing with a firearm, when you can be above average. How about a A+ rather than a C????
     
  20. Rikalonius

    Rikalonius Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    If you get the drop on a robber without a gun, you have no real advantage, especially if they have a gun. I suppose you could beg for mercy.

    Because of my extensive military backround, I have a carry permit and a number of guns. But I rarely carry. I don't need to. I stay away from trouble.

    Having a gun in your house is only one step. Call me paranoid, but I have protective lighting above my bedroom door. If a burglar breaks in, and the alarm doesn't chase him away, and he still comes up stairs despite a bright light blinding him, I'm going to assume he means me harm and I'm going to blast two rounds into his, or her (let's be fair) chest.

    Could I fight with him? Sure, I can hold my own in a scrap, but I shouldn't be required to. And If I loose, I'm putting my family at risk.
     
  21. Risste

    Risste Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2001
    I think it is every gun owner's responsibility to become capable with the weapons they own. It would be dumb for them not to.

    However, I am not the one to mandate such as a rule. I don't think every car owner should have to be able to drag race or even to just max out their personal vehicle, so I don't see why everyone has to become a Marine Force Recon operative with their guns.

    The idea is to make sure people know how accidents occur and how to prevent them. As to training the populace in tactical combat, I don't know that is necessary.
     
  22. womberty

    womberty Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Another point I'd like to make: you only need a driver's license to drive your car on the public roads. There's nothing that says a 12-year-old kid can't drive a car in my backyard.

    So why would you need a license to keep a gun in your own home?
     
  23. Moriarte

    Moriarte Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2001
    -darthmomm-
    "***walks in...see's dead horse...walks out*****"

    I wholeheartily agree with you(though in differing aspects of course)...***watches Hell freeze over, walks out***

    Ciou-See the Sig
     
  24. Rikalonius

    Rikalonius Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Gun Control is once step from Prohibition. How many of you gun control advocates would be willing to argue for banning alcohol again? How many of you are for legalizing marijuana?

    With as many alchohol related deaths in the country, I think a stronger case could be made for criminalizing alcohol.
     
  25. DARTHPIGFEET

    DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2001
    I agree that banning alcohol would be a great thing to do. It should be done. I would rather save lives rather then give someone the legal right to get drunk and run amuck and get someone else killed.

    I mean shouldn't this be an obvious priority?????? Lives over social things like drinking which may or may not be a problem for some shouldn't jeopordize a persons life to live.

    Anyone who says that someones right to drink is more important than a life needs to get their priorities in order and that is a fact.

    Also keep Marijuana illegal. I'm sick of the double standard and I agree that it's not fair to have cigarettes and alcohol legal and not have Pot legal as well. I will not budge though in keeping Pot illegal so that we have 2 rather than 3 bad habits legal.
     
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