JCC Half a century later there (still) was a conspiracy in the JFK assassination

Discussion in 'Community' started by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. EmpireForever Chosen One

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    thank you for removing any validity to anything you have to say on the subject on your own; you might have looked foolish otherwise.
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  2. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Actually I'll tell you what happened:

    I was there. I was only 7 years old at the time. I was playing in the building overlooking the street with my shiny new sniper rifle that I had gotten from cousin Ralph for my 7th birthday. Then all of a sudden, my friend Timmy the Magical Talking Pizza Roll appeared and told me "Use the sniper rifle to shoot the President. Come on! It'll be fun." So I shot but missed entirely hitting the secret service agent instead. Then, out of nowhere a giant flying saucer fell from the sky and started firing at JFK and the crowd. Minutes later, the MIB appeared and wiped everyone's memories. BUT NOT ME. I was hiding. I know the truth. I was there. Aliens did it!
  3. Bib Fartuna Jedi Grand Master

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    [IMG]

    Human Services are on their way...
    Last edited by Bib Fartuna, Nov 19, 2013
  4. Saintheart Chosen One

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    [IMG]

    "I came to confess! I was the second gunman on the grassy knoll."
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  5. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

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    Oh Empire.

    Here we go, bullet three.

    This is it people! Is it going to happen? Will I say something that ryhmes with track and to the cleft?
    Will we delve into the endless arguments about what the motion of JFK's head indicates? I'm sorry to say no, that rabbit hole has no end.
    Let's instead use this bullet to focus on how the image is so dangerous to the LG theory that, even if it doesn't indicate a shot from the front the coverup went into action.

    I've already detailed how a lie as plain as day (JFK shot in the throat while turned completely around) was deployed to explain away the entrance wound in the throat.
    The same dynamic is at play here.

    Slides of Zapruder frames were submitted to the WC flip book style.
    You know, because you wouldn't want the men writing the WC report to actually see the video of the crime, would you (LOL)?

    So, the track and to the cleft frames were in the wrong order so that flip book, if you will, showed JFK's head snapping forward.
    You can believe that was an accident if you want. Really, go ahead.

    This is evidence tampering, plain and simple.

    Now let's look at the WC exhibit showing the two head wounds (image on the right)...
    [IMG]

    Minor detour- look at the magic bullet entry point! As we know, there's no question that isn't even close to the correct location. It's almost, almost as if they're trying to mislead the Commissioners and anyone else seeing this to show the MB entered above the throat wound in front.

    Anyway... clearly the back quarter of the head is blown out. Nice because that, for once, matches the Dallas medical staff and witness accounts...
    [IMG]

    Who knew bullet three would turn into such a love fest?

    Yeah, that couldn't last and you knew it.

    Right or wrong, the WC and it's ballistics experts from the FBI clearly felt they needed to draw a line that explained how (angle warning) a shot from the sixth floor/rear could explain that. So here's how they did it...
    [IMG]

    So yet more intent to mislead (or artists on drugs),
    [IMG]

    Once again, the real physical world easily demonstrates how preposterous the official theory is. I thought Oswald was on the sixth floor, not lying on the street after all. This one isn't ballistics, it is geometry.
    Last edited by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 19, 2013
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  6. Saintheart Chosen One

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    I guess the first question I'd have there is: accepting the hypothesis the bullet is increasing its altitude when it hits JFK's head, how do you deal with the possibility of a ricochet instead of a straight shot? Was there any damage to the car in the back, the road, sidewalk, anything that might suggest Oswald got a lucky rebound? Not trying to shoot holes in this (pardon the pun), I just wonder what investigation was gone into around that.

    EDIT: Also, maybe someone can tell me more about this, but is there a straightforward reason for the seeming disparity in injuries inflicted by the different bullets? One of them passes through two bodies (assuming a magic bullet for a moment) without tearing up a hell of a lot of material, but then the other one seems to make JFK's head asplode? Would different ammo do that, or are those divergent results "within the range", so to speak, of the ammo the Carcano seems to have been loaded with?
    Last edited by Saintheart, Nov 19, 2013
  7. EmpireForever Chosen One

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    It depends on what the ballistic interacts with in the body, Saint. If the bullet were to enter somewhere with no bone, it could, conceivably, travel in a straight line, provided that it did not strike anything while in there, and that would not cause a significant amount of trauma, nor would it really impede the velocity of the projectile; but what happens to the projectile from the moment it makes contact is completely unpredictable. There's obviously quite a lot of resistance when a bullet hits a skull, causing it to fragment more easily, causing more trauma.
  8. Saintheart Chosen One

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    ...not to mention it turns out that, at least according to Mortal Error and other books like it, the AR-15 Hickey was carrying was loaded with .223 frangible, i.e., explosive, ammunition. As in, the kind that could create a wound consistent with Kennedy getting his head half blown off.

    On that score, the main issue that seems to bat against the Hickey shot theory is that the AR-15 is meant to be a loud gun. Contemporary versions of the weapon speak of it as "eardrum-piercing" at short range. If Hickey fired his weapon from the following car when it accelerated, you might have expected someone in that car to hear it. On that, there's seven people: five Secret Service agents including Hickey himself, and two of Kennedy's closest associates in government: Dave Powers and Ken O'Donnell, who were on his chief of staff.

    If you presume the Secret Service agents closed ranks to protect one of their own, that still leaves those two men as the closest, expected witnesses to an AR-15 going off. (In passing on that, reading the testimonies of the agents, there is a certain familiar bureaucratic air about their testimonies: various references to Hickey handling the AR-15 and whatnot but odd silence on what he did with it; call it the old non-denial, and I might be reading a little too much into it on that.)

    Anyway, Powers' testimony by affidavit to the Warren Commission is that he thought the shots came from above and to the right (i.e. from the Book Depository), but that the third shot came about the time the car accelerated and he thought (as I understood) there might've been a shot from in front of the car. Added to that, his hearing is strangely accurate on one point: his affidavit records there "was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall."

    O'Donnell's testimony was that the accelerator on their car was hit after the third shot came, and that he saw the third shot take out Kennedy's head. Against that, O'Donnell called his own recollection foggy on the witness stand and his best estimate was that the shots came from behind and from the right. That, at least is understandable since memory's a funny thing, especially in a time period of 10 seconds or less; we remember far less accurately than we think we do;

    On the other hand, Powers was later said, in a conversation Tip O'Neill recounted, to have more or less recanted his own testimony and by extension O'Donnell's as well. He indicated they'd basically testified the way the FBI pressed them to because the FBI and the Kennedy family just wanted to put the assassination behind them. And in addition to that, it doesn't take a terribly long Google search before you start finding debate over whether or not an AR-15 is loud or not. One account from a former soldier says his friend once accidentally set off an AR-15 round no more than 5 yards from him and he wondered if his friend had even fired.

    Either way the absence of direct eyewitness (or earwitness) evidence of Hickey firing a shot from a foot or so away is pretty damn telling and one big hole in the theory. But on the other hand, you have multiple witnesses recorded as smelling gunpowder smoke at street level, some of whom were intimately familiar with the scent, and people would have been more likely to be looking at Kennedy, not at Hickey. If the Hickey shot theory is right and it's correct in ballistics that gunpowder smoke hangs in the air in a 2-3 metre spread, then there is at least a basis to exclude Powers and O'Donnell's testimony in favour of other civilians. In any court, it's ponderantur, non numerantur, testes -- i.e. the truth is not always arrived at by consensus -- but if you've got a pack of disinterested people who more or less testify to the same thing versus a pack of people with agendae (Powers, the Secret Service agents) who testify to another, you'd normally move in favour of the disinterested. Had he gone to trial Oswald would have certainly been given the benefit of that presumption because it's a presumption of innocence.

    But then, witness testimony is always going to be difficult to work with. In some random reading on this, I came across Abraham Zapruder's testimony to the Commission, i.e. the guy who shot the footage. It makes for poignant reading and strange reading juxtaposed against the footage. Zapruder was badly affected by what he'd seen, breaking down and crying on the witness stand as he described what he saw that day, so much so that his evidence was almost inchoate and neither inculpates or exculpates Oswald or anyone else. Compare that to his faithful little camera, which recorded with an impersonal, dead eye perhaps the most significant home movie in living memory, if not possibly the only reason the JFK assassination will be debated over forevermore.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Nov 20, 2013
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  9. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    Stellar write up Saint.
    Thanks for the contribution Empire.

    I personally don't buy the AR theory because of the throat wound which was widely reported as an entrance wound until
    1. The wound was overlaid by the tracheostomy
    2. The lone gunmen theory demanded that it couldn't be an entrance wound.

    A Dallas Times Herald reporter tells the story on video of how she interviewed the doctor who focused on the throat wound in the OR. He described it as an entrance wound three times and she naturally put it in her story.
    Bonus- The next day when she read the story she saw it had been changed to indicate it could have been a shot from the TSBD. She called up her editor and said, "Who the hell changed my story?"
    He said, "The FBI."
    Make of that bonus what you will, maybe she was on drugs but it's just one more Dallas resident with no reason to lie.

    I had a really great picture I must have deleted. Ugh, many of these are lovingly screen scraped from videos and that was one of them so I can't reproduce it easily. One of the Dallas doctors showed the very top of his finger, indicating that was the size of the wound.

    Also, the limo damage we've detailed isn't consistent with a frangible bullet post skull IMO...
    [IMG]

    At this point you plunge down the rabbit he of, "If Oswald or whoever fired bullets 1, 2, 3 and the AR was 4...
    You really can't succinctly list out all the possibilities or exclusionary (potentially) factors to each of those Monte Carlo scenarios.
    Last edited by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 20, 2013
  10. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Quick note, the only part I've really got a formed view on is that the head asplode shot came from Hickey. The others could be from Oswald or other parties; that I'm leaving to one side. On those I don't know. In particular the entrance wound at the front seems wholly dependent on the doctor's belief it was the entry wound, and given it was obscured when they cut JFK's throat open in a desperate tracheotomy to try and save him you surely would have to presume whatever examination the doctor made was a pretty cursory one ahead of trying to save JFK's life. It seems pretty much common ground that the doctors tried everything, their very hardest, to save him, which presumably wouldn't have left a lot of time for forensic analysis, at least at the stage of his initial presentation to the hospital.

    I'm still interested in how you exclude ricochets here, but I'm also interested in the damage to the outside of the windscreen. Apparently the FBI claimed that was damage done prior to Dallas; by any chance are there any surviving photos of the limo on that date showing the spot where the hole-ish damage was noted? I mean, a flawless windscreen prior to the shooting, which would rule out the FBI's explanation?
    Last edited by Saintheart, Nov 20, 2013
  11. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

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    Feb 26, 2001
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    I don't exclude ricochets as such, it's just that the destruction of evidence (fully repairing the limo without systematically taking photos of all the parts, etc.) makes it such an unknown.
    This priceless piece of evidence was tampered with before it even left the hospital (washing away blood stains).

    The chrome dent and windshield were at least captured for posterity.

    It's been many years since I've read the WC report but there was a full write up by the FBI, at least a page, explaining how a bullet or fragment from inside the limo caused a crack on the outside of the windshield.
    Obviously I don't buy that but that's their story.
    Last edited by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 20, 2013
  12. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The magic bullet theory is hilarious and incredibly nonsensical. It's like something out of a Looney Tunes cartoon.
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  13. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

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    Feb 26, 2001
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    That last post would make a great ending but alas, there's still so much more.

    RL kept me very busy, got to polish up some process flows (the only part of my job I'm happy to do) so...

    Third shot wackiness doesn't end with the above, I'll be brief.
    Here's the official press briefing where the press was told of the killing. This is at the hospital.
    Head shot being illustrated. Amazing how simple it is to say the shot came from the front before the lone gunman theory began to be enforced...
    [IMG]
    Granted that was a quick gesture but there it is.

    Now let's compare it to the Navy man from Bethesda (where the autopsy occurred) on what he saw in reviewing the original pictures, etc.
    [IMG]

    An entry point there would naturally fit much better with the back of JFK's skull getting blown out than the strained images from my last picture post.
    It would also match the Dallas medical staff description of the head wound.
    We might as well mention the Dallas funeral home employee who handled the body. He said the back of the head, "Felt like a wet sponge."
    This is consistent with what the Newman's, the closest observers to the limo when that shot hit, said.
    Same with the Willis family, both generations of which can be seen on video saying the rear of the head was blown off.
    More corroboration? The WC exhibit posted above.

    There's also Jackie, in that tragic image climbing to the very back of the limo to remove a piece of brain or skull.
    A head exploding can certainly send bits everywhere but it's there to see.

    So to wrap up bullet the third...
    -Gov't needed a truly laughable entrance angle to justify a rear entry (literally below the car)
    -Pretty much everyone in Dallas describes the back of the head getting blown out (not saying that's conclusive)
    -The WC itself shows the back getting blown out
    -The initial press briefing indicated a front entry point
    -Track and to the cleft is a red herring used by both sides to waste time or because they're stupid. The entrance angle is far more problematic.
    -Even I'm tired of discussing bullets
    Last edited by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 20, 2013
  14. Condition2SQ Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 5, 2012
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    Are we going to hear the harrowing tales of kidnap and blackmail that caused the ballistics experts of the HSCA to eschew national fame, fortune, and immortality in the next post?
    Last edited by Condition2SQ, Nov 20, 2013
  15. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

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    Absolutely.

    And by absolutely I mean I'll keep my promise which was to finish the damn bullets tour before moving on to the HSCA
    Edit: ballistics included
    Last edited by Kiki-Gonn, Nov 20, 2013
  16. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

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    It's also completely consistent with getting shot in the back of the head.



    Edit: Admittedly, there's a lot of material that should be coming out of either end of a struck skull in either situation; but as there's nothing inherently contradictory about backspray I don't think you can deduce much about angle of entry from the... um... particulate.
    Last edited by Ramza, Nov 20, 2013
  17. Aytee-Aytee Force Ghost

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  18. hudzu Chosen One

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    i 've been reading this thread for 8 pages now and there is just something that keeps bugging me. i just don't understand why they just didn't get the shooters fingerprints off the bullet like batman did in the dark knight.
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  19. Saintheart Chosen One

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    I might say that, looking again at the Zapruder footage, the irony of it is that its graininess and the fact it's been gone over again and again over the years has almost turned it into a Rorschach inkblot: if you watch it a lot you can see just about anything you want to see in it, FLACK AND TO THE BEREFT included. One thing that does occur to me which may just be my impression, but as the limo comes out from behind that sign, it seems to my untrained eye that Connolly reacts to something before JFK reaches for his throat. Or it could just be Connolly shifting in his seat; I don't know.

    Again descending (or ascending) to the philosophical for a moment, I came across an article which makes the case that the JFK footage in one sense is the destruction of cinematic reliability, in the sense that it records exactly what was going on when JFK was killed but still doesn't tell us really what happened.

    ...all right, it was one of those sorts of articles.

    Still, Andy Warhol of all people apparently liked the Zapruder footage as a work of art quite apart from its factual content. In a gruesome way, I agree: it records the bloody end of Camelot. Jackie Kennedy largely created the "Camelot" myth, of course, but that aside, the film carries almost a story to it. Prior to the shot, the motorcade comes turning down the street, and the slight blurriness gives the footage a dreamlike quality, a sense of being a fantasy story. The limo disappears behind a blank, unrevealing sign, and a moment after it emerges, horrible reality sets in, almost building as if towards a climax: Kennedy buckles, Connolly turns in pain, Jackie looks over to her husband, and then frame 313 - the frame Zapruder found so disturbing he never wanted the public shown it, the bloody, final climax in which it seems we can just about see every drop of blood that goes flying from JFK's head, followed by the tragic denouement as Jackie struggles literally to put her husband back together again and secret service agents scramble in the wake of their fallen charge.
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  20. Saintheart Chosen One

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    STAHP STEALIN MAH JOKES
  21. hudzu Chosen One

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    oh. i actually lied about reading this thread for 8 pages.

    busted.
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  22. Lord Vivec Chosen One

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    WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL HAPPENING
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  23. Saintheart Chosen One

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  24. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    BECAUSE WE CAN'T LET THINGS GO
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  25. Lord Vivec Chosen One

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    Kiki, have you yet considered that the JOOZ were behind the assassination?