Lit Han and Leia are jerks to their kids in "Ambush at Corellia"

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Brenapp, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    star 3
    To continue meta-ing a little, for the fun of it (just tell me if it annoys you) --

    # We read a book that tells us what the characters do.
    # The book also (sometimes) gives reasons for these actions, it evaluates these actions (e.g. describing a deed as "reckless" or "brave") and offers direct characterization (like calling someone "scheming").
    # What we do, then, is to take the characters' actions in a given book and substitute our own reasons and evaluations for those given in the text.

    Which is interesting, because it means treating one aspect of the text as more "real" than the others. We're treating the books (and comics etc) like historical texts in the way that we try to separate "fact" from "stuff the author just says because of his or her skewed perspective" -- only that we don't usually doubt the accuracy of the events described, rather the mode of description and the logic ascribed to them. Also, unlike historians, we have no way of confirming where an author is "right" or not because the characters and events never existed outside of the book -- though we might get multiple different accounts of the same event through IU or OOU secondary works, complicating things even further.

    (Coming to think of it, it might be funny sometimes to treat all EU lit as in-universe fiction, and try to figure out when and where the author would have lived, under what circumstances he/she wrote that book, judging from the amount of information he/she has -- retcons -- and from the slant they give their stories. When in the history of the GFFA would a Karen Traviss have lived and written? A frustrated would-be lover of Boba Fett stranded on Mandalore post-Inferno after some really horrible experiences with hypocritical Jedi?)

    Yes! So let's get into morality...

    What you're doing (and I think you're doing it great, never would've though of most of that) is
    # construct hypothetical "social norms" in the GFFA by expanding on the few "clues" the texts give us, using inductive reasoning and analogy (with "real" places like Somalia),
    # and then say we should judge the Solo parents' behavior on the basis of these hypothetical norms rather than on our own.

    Now IMO there are two ways to look at this:
    # For descriptive purposes, your approach is probably the best one. If we ask, "How could Han+Leia do that, leave her kids in the care of a droid nanny at an age like that?", that question is best answered by a) saying "it's inevitable if they want to save the galaxy" (like Ceiran does) or b) saying "it's common practice in the GFFA, so they wouldn't even think of it as weird" (like you did) -- both of which are good explanations for Han+Leia's actions.
    # When it comes to expressing our own moral stance on these actions, however, I think we're perfectly within our rights to say that some of their decisions are morally questionable. They might not be to them -- as Robimus said, of course they were not "intentionally" bad parents -- but cultural relativism aside (and no matter how historically/culturally contingent my own moral compass may be) I can say that even if this is common practice in the GFFA, it's still wrong. I can understand why they do it, but understanding it doesn't mean I have to approve of it.
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  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    annoying me? NEVER.. I love that, my friend!
    got essays that I am sure you might find interesting. give me your email if you want a preview.

    Basically one is about Star Wars as History, a long time ago and all sources are historian perspective or retelling of events and people long past. With continuity trouble being conflicting historian theories and the like. Essay is based on Star Wars and History book recently published for it provided very cool intel backing my thesis up with Movie quotes as proof.

    Another tied to this and your points is about Interpreting the texts we got according to its intended levels of readership... f.e. how we analyse a young reader source differs from how we interpret an adult novel. Best example: compare Movie novelisations in young reader and adult novel editions.

    Basically a lot is open to interpretation and as in this topic, else where too, we are bound by our own beliefs and knowledge and experiences in interpreting a galaxy far far away, deducing often wonderous and interesting different conclusions. Basically this is why authors got stuff so different from the same source they claim to reference and create continuity hickups only because author A interpreted it different than author B. And as in some cases, Author A interpreted his own work different in a later work due to no longer remembering what the heck he wanted back then.

    but to bring this full circle: we often treat some elements as more real than others based on our own preferences... be it the characters we love deserve less continuity trouble than others, or be it little details like who got the longest stardestroyer, the Mon Cal cruiser with most knobs or best Force philosophy based on our real world beliefs which differ quite a bit often.
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  3. Brenapp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2012
    star 2
    So she thinks that treating her children like dirt will stop them developing nasty tendancies? Yeah, pearls of wisdom there, Leia. Why don't you just disown them and dump them all in a mining facility while you're at it? And as for denouncing your own firstborn son as the Ultimate Evil Incarnate and baying for his blood, you really haven't learned anything from what happened with your own father, have you? Honestly, Leia's probably fortunate her kids didn't try to kill her and Han years ago.
  4. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    If we presume uopn some sort of universal morality then we can make moral judgments, yes. Star Wars does have a universal morality via the Force (one that is very differetn from any traditional legal structure mind you, thanks Kyp Durron), but that doesn't apply to everything.

    Essentially, is leaving your children to be watched and more or less raised by droids a bad thing? Is that wrong? We really can't tell. Is leaving your kids to be raised largely by a nanny wrong? It's contreversial, but lots of people do it, and I don't think we can really say that its some sort of malevolent act unless you can point to some statisitcal outcomes it provides. Sure it doesn't match the deeply American image of a happy, tender, and loving nuclear family with two parents at home focused on their children's development, but there's nothing to say that this particular social system is superior to any other. In Han and Leia's case we simply do not know if droids make good or bad caregivers. C-3PO's attempts to educate and mind Allana in FotJ show that he's at least trying very hard, and is even willing to sacrifice himself for her, so there's certainly not a shortage of effort, at least.

    Likewise, if we wish to judge Han and Leia for allowing their children to enter military operations against the Yuuzhan Vong at a young age, we have to acknowledge that age of enlistment is a largey arbitrary boundary determined both by social construct and military ideas of physical development and capability.

    The bottom line is that there's very little in the way of criticism of what Han and Leia were doing in-universe or even of Luke's rather simlar actions with Ben. Certainly this leads to problems were it looks bad from an out-of-universe perspective at times. Of course, this happens a lot with Star Wars - I wrote in the thread about Timothy Zahn regarding how he had to, in HoT place a 'dark side influence' shroud over much of Luke Skywalker's career in order to make it so he didn't come off as a complete idiot through an objective reading of the texts. We may need a similar moment to address the Han and Leia parenting situation.
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  5. krtmd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    I just see this as an unfortunate result of authors putting plot ahead of characterization. They need Han and Leia to do X,Y, and Z to serve their high tension, high action plot, and those pesky children get in the way. What's an author to do? Dump them with Winter or Threepio or whatever. If it happened once in a book series, I don't think it would seem so awful, or paint them as such awful parents, but it was obviously a pattern for a while - send kids away, kids are kidnapped, etc., etc., lather, rinse, repeat.
    CeiranHarmony likes this.
  6. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    universal morality does not exist ;) even good and bad are just social constructs and based on opinions on what a majority percieves as good or bad, which changes over time as it did in past times. in real world as well as in the gffa actually if we look at its rich history and diverse cultures who define good and bad quite different... just ask the Hutts.. or Trandoshans... then Wookiees, Twileks etc.

    light and darkness of the Force are merely Taoism, as in creation and destrution, natural cycles, not comparable to good or evil at all as multiple sources highlight and yet still lots of people, fans and authors as well, get wrong sadly [face_sigh]
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Dec 30, 2012
  7. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    star 3
    Not what I was getting at. (I had actually included a paragraph to that effect in my post but then deleted it, feeling it was long enough already :p)
    Absent the Force (whose supposed "will" is fickle and opaque enough not to serve as a reliable basis for a moral framework, IMO) or some similar essentialist construct one might choose to believe in, there simply is no basis for any morality to ever be "objective" or "universal". A moral framework is something you either choose or invent for yourself (usually a combination of the two, I guess); it has no reality or legitimation beyond that. You can give reasons for your moral principles and judgments, but these are inevitably arbitrary, historically and culturally contingent and can be refuted as such.

    But that is no excuse for moral relativism. It doesn't matter if my moral framework is grounded in the "Will of the Force" or whatever or simply my own invention; if I have decided for it and can defend it in a rational debate, I can apply it to whatever situation I choose. For example, if I choose to believe that handing your children to a nanny droid is morally reprehensible, the information that it may be a common practice in the GFFA is completely irrelevant to that. It may help me understand why people do that, but as I said, that doesn't make it better.


    On a different note, I actually think I do remember Leia and Han agonizing over the way they have to treat their kids in order to save the galaxy from time to time -- so my impression wouldn't be that the standard moral framework in the GFFA is so different from ours in that regard. Having to choose between being a good parent and doing the best for the greater whole is such a basic staple of fiction that I'm sure it has come up at least a few times in the EU.
  8. Brenapp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2012
    star 2
    They were still jerks to their kids. I can't ignore that simply because at the time, Han and Leia felt that it was "for the greater good."

    It should be noted though, that a comic book published fairly recently portrayed a different view of the relationship of Leia with her children to the sometimes cold one of the novels. I honestly can't remember what issue it was, but it had Jacen, Jaina and Anakin sneaking into the senate chamber to watch their mother conducting a dialogue with some delegates. At one point during a somewhat serious discussion, Leia's attention is drawn to the gallery, where she sees her kids making funny faces at her, and despite the gravity of what's going on, she can't help it......She cracks into a big grin at the innocent mischievousness of her offspring. Afterwards, Leia is still warm and kind to them. This kind of attitude is what should have been shown more in the literature.
    Last edited by Brenapp, Dec 30, 2012
  9. Mechalich Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2010
    star 4
    That is a highly debateable statement. However this thread is not the place for such a debate, so I'll say nothing further on that front.

    This seems very contradictory. You are reducing morality to a matter of personal opinion. You're saying that everyone has their own moral framework and can make judgments accordingly. However, if that's true then all person's frameworks are equal and you're opinion has no influence beyond your personal viewpoint. As a result the fact that you, as a person, might find Han and Leia's actions to be reprehensible, but that doesn't mean anything, because I or anyone else have absolutely no reason to either agree with you or care what you think (this is not meant as an attack that's simply the only way I can parse the meaning of the above statement).

    Now, we can, collectively, talk about the appropriateness or lack thereof of actions with regard to their outcomes. Meaning we could judge Han and Leia as parents based on the results of their parenting, given suitable comparative groups under the same conditions. The second requirement is very difficult to achieve, since there are very few famillies with children in the same timeframe whatsoever, never mind having anything close to comparable circumstances. The Antilles and Fel families come the closest, and if we look at those two groups they actually have a surprisingly similar parenting path: parents who are absent a lot, children taking on very dangerous career paths at young ages.

    Somewhat tangentially related: if we are talking about outcomes, we can't blame Jacen's fall to the dark side on his upbringing. That change occured during his sojourn in the Unknown Regions (FotJ pinpoints the process) when he was fully an adult. If anything Han and Leia managed to raise three astonishingly heroic children who avoided any of the common pitfalls we might expect of having extremely famous, rich, and well-connected parents: debauchery, ruininous finanicial problems, etc.
  10. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    star 3
    Yeah I guess I'm having some trouble getting across what I mean...
    What I mean is, I know and acknowledge that my moral framework, whatever it be, is the result of a) arbitrary social and historical circumstances and b) my own choices. Because IMO there is no objective morality out there, so this is all we have. And if somebody claims their moral framework is objective and absolute for some reason or other, I will ignore that claim and treat that person's opinion like everyone else's, i.e. as arbitrary.
    But that arbitrariness does not mean that my (or anybody else's) moral framework counts for nothing. It just means that no moral framework is objectively privileged over any other, so moral judgment is always only a matter of assertion and discursive interaction. I can try to convince you to agree with my moral judgments or even to conform to my moral standards, as you can try to convince me, and in the process maybe we can work out some intersubjective agreement, but neither of us can lay claim to having the "real" thing, to be arguing from an "objective" standpoint.

    I don't know... maybe I should just drop it because re-reading the above it still doesn't seem all too clear... I'm just trying to say that knowing my opinion isn't "better" than anyone else's needn't force me to just accept everyone else's actions. Or, in other words, that non-essentialism isn't reason enough to give in to moral essentialism. Erm. Well. Okay. It's late night where I'm now so I guess I'd just go to bed now. :p
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  11. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    in reply to your reply to cthuga: yes this does reduce morality to something personal... but, what you forget is that it is not just the opinion of each individual but also the collective opinion of groups, families, cultures, societies, nations and entire species like mankind. These sociology (which I once studied btw) treats as collectives that based on the sum of their individual opinions form a collective opinion or moral that then becomes the moral for all of them with some deviating to several degrees from it thus inducing either exclusion or a reform in the collective moral if they can change the individual opinion of enough people to transform the collective against initial behavior contrary to the collectively set norm.

    thus, moral is not just individual, even if it is opinion based. Yet it is not universal still, just the group that defines it is however large you make the group you base the moral on.

    now, another interesting point you bring up is, if we judge Han and Leia's parenting on their intentions or the outcome. I think, both would be onesided. This gets close to force philosophy 101 again I know.. so I will be careful to stay on topic here ;)

    By outcome, the Solokids are prepared well for the harsh life in medieval-esque gffa with dangerous places and wars despite centers of peace and harmony in civilised space. The Solokids got their own morals that are very good guidance for them. Jacen does question the universe and everything instead of relying on preset morals of others. Anakin simplifies that by less questioning yet stays aware of the dangers of following preset morals, while at the same time counting more on instinct and inner guidance (the Force) rather than rational thought, like Jacen does. Jaina on the other hand is pro-action and less philosophic, yet accepts the morals of the Jedi as well that of the NR military as her own balancing blind military obedience with Jedi conscience and obligation to the Force. Thus the kids turned out well, despite chaotic times around them. Anakins death was that of a selfless hero, Jacen Solo's fall was out of altruism more than being selfish and despite the death and pain he brought, the LOTF plot shows clearly that his intentions were the best, and that often the Force was at play too in many coincidences where misinterpretations between him and his parents or Luke lead to more chaos instead of a solution. So I'd say one can not blame that on his parents if judging by outcome.

    By intention, the Solos definitely did not want any bad for their kids. they wanted to have family live with them yet protect them away from them too.

    a third way you did not mention is, judging by methods they used, neither intention nor outcome. here we got the Solos using:
    ... protection by keeping them away from danger (which intentionally good, kept them from making many friends and socialising too with uncles, droids, wookiees as companions mostly)
    ... protection by keeping them close (lead the kids to danger sadly and might create more fear than trust in parents and family time)
    etc.
  12. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    ok... add on: Do we have to judge at all? really, I mean... why judge anybody? however we twist it.. in the end, judgment is opinion and not universal and what does it help? We cannot undo the past, nor can we forsee the future, we live in the present and what good does it do us if we judge somebody? If we judge somebody as bad we might either ignore, punish, evade, kill etc. him/her. If we judge someone as good, cute, whatever we seek closeness, wisdom, etc. So judging essentially is just a personal guiding compass based on ones own experience and individual moral compass. It tells us what to avoid/seek, what to do and not to do. Yet.. is it really necessary? we learn out of bad experiences, we could help bad people and might even redeem them or improove things if we try and ignore judgment for one. Sometimes it just needs one to listen to somebody, to trust despite all moral and society telling you not to to make things better. (see Luke and Vader in ROTJ.. contrary to "kill the Sith" he showed trust and love against all judgement and won!)

    What I am saying is.. judgement does more harm than that it helps. Be open, tolerant and accept that there is no dark side, no bad people. Just people with different experiences and decisions in life, different opinions, and learn to accept them, tolerate them yet also to discover that different is not always to be feared or bad.

    PS: I know the obvious reply to come will be "Shall I accept a murderer, tolerate a kidnapper, love one who hurts children?"

    What can I say to that? On papers I am christian, yet in reality I am much more than that and share believes with christianity, buddhism, taoism and many others that I would not put myself in one category here. I could say follow Jesus example who loved without conditions even the worst people. I could quote philosophic texts on the matter of everybody getting his punishment/karma thx to universal laws with no need for people punishing other people, life will do that automatically one day, somehow. I could go in depth into that and more to discuss the above obvious reply away, but I know many will not accept that. Many will say this goes too much into believe and philosophy and is less unifiyable with their believes and experiences.

    Thus, I just say on that matter: I believe the message of Star Wars as of ROTJ (as well as in many other real world sources) is, Jedi warriors are not. Do not fight, do not kill evil or you turn into what you fight. If you need to become a martyr or not I do not know but even if so, stick to your believes and do not give in to fear. You do not need weapons to defend yourself, all you need you have with you since you were born. True Love.

    And if anybody now might mention that if that were true the world would not have evil since all always just want the best. Well.. that'd go too far beyond this discussion I think, but I'd love to elaborate on how it all makes sense and works together. Coming back to aforementioned universal laws.. as well as to the collectives of my earlier post, one can say that the future is created by all life, much as the Force is. Yet not all our wishes come true. Not all our fears become reality. What is within us, will be and is mirrored around us, yet like with moral.. we are no Daiman who created his own universe according to his belief. All wishes, thoughts, dreams, fears accumulate into what the universe is and will become. Change within yourself, and you change the world around you. Fear is the path to the dark side, it prevents your positive thoughts to become real, much as doubts do.

    Ok, enough esoterics and metaphysics, philosophy and religion for now. I am a believer and a scientist too.. so who wants to discuss that, lets do it. Otherwise, back on topic now.

    Do we really have to judge others? Do we want to be judged by others? And, honestly.. how would others judge us, if they knew all our secrets, our dark sides, our sins and our good deeds alike. Judgement is so unreliable. Often it is based on the exterior alone... good looks, fashion, makeup and the person behind this is ignored or not even recognised, hidden behind a mask that was created for others to be liked, to be adored. Some people hide their darkness, others wear it proudly, some people are true to themselves and do not try to be someone else, or appear different from what they are. Some show their fears, hopes and believes, live by them, others live a masquerade (no offense to cosplayers :p) and only those with a really good judgement or sixth sense can see beyond the facade, beyond the mask into the hearts of those who hide in plain sight.

    argh ok, can't stop ranting.. sorry.
  13. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    I wonder if Jabba spent more time with Rotta than Han & Leia spent with their kids?

    Leia and Han get emotionally destroyed by Jacen's actions, but ultimatly they do not have the ability to do anything about it. The Luke lead Jedi Order makes an attempt to capture Jacen in Fury. In Revelation Luke offers him redemption as well.

    Jaina's mission is a worst case senario in Invincible - And yes I thought the book was poor and that Jaina should have tried to save Jacen.

    My point is lets not pretend that the Skysolo's went from finding out Jacen was a Sith to deciding to kill him in a couple seconds. There is a lot you are leaving out that happened along the way.
    Last edited by Robimus, Dec 30, 2012
  14. Zeta1127 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    And people wonder why I think that the post-NJO is insane?
  15. Havac Some Guy Who Moderates Lit

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    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    One of the things that I think is missing is that we're looking at a very limited time period for most of the Bantam stuff that's being cited. The hiding on New Alderaan and Anoth, that was a long-term thing. But that only lasted for about two years, less for Anakin, and was a response to tremendous fear about threats to the children and their development. After that, we had a situation in which, the majority of the time, it's implied that the kids were on Coruscant and Leia was working regular hours. Han's situation is less clear; he was a stay-at-home father at least some of the time, and may have gone on a handful of occasional missions or had to go into the office on a regular basis for at least some years, but even in that situation, all we have is Leia leaving the kids with a droid or biological nanny during the workday. Which is hardly unusual.

    Most of the situations we actually see in the books are implicitly unusual. The kids are on their own with Threepio in JAT when Han is sent off on a diplomatic mission and can't be at home, then a crisis erupts and we get more missions. Han and Leia are away from the house when they're doing things, yeah, but they're not fighting Daala every day of the year. When Leia is away from the house on routine diplomatic duties, as in TCS, she takes the kids with her, and when Han and Leia go to a diplomatic summit, they take the kids with and make it a vacation. The kids get sent to hide out during TNR, when there seems to be the possibility of a threat directed against them, and during HOT, when there's a galactic crisis and their parents are busy trying to save the galaxy and keep their kids safe at the same time. None of this is usual situation, and even so I'm struggling to see how it's supposed to prove terrible parenting.
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  16. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    star 3
    I completely agree; just didn't mention it because I don't think it makes any difference. My whole spiel there is about "how do we deal with the insight that any moral framework we may have is arbitrary" -- and that insight stays true whether it's ages-old Christian or Buddhist morality or my own idiosyncratic mad system :p


    That's part of what I mean: not only are the moral values we assign to particular things arbitrary; the choice of what we choose to take as a basis for our moral judgments (intentions? methods used? the actions themselves? the eventual results of these actions? the eventual results of these actions as far as the acting person can potentially be aware of them? the actions on their own or relative to the average behavior of somebody's social group? etc ad nauseam:p)

    And to reply to your other post (which I mostly skimmed for now, may rant later), yes I think it is important for us to make moral judgments, if only to guide our own behavior and consciously position ourselves in relation to other people and modes of behavior. That doesn't mean we always have to force our opinion on everybody, but trying not to judge people while going through life (yes I know this has become something of a popular notion these days) strikes me as a) unrealistic and thus mostly hypocritical and b) not preferable because it doesn't allow you to enter into any sort of meaningful and honest dialogue (at least on matters of opinion and morality) if you refuse to tell (even yourself) where you stand in relation to them.
    And when you're faced with something you find you disagree with -- like, say, people treating their kids abominably -- not speaking up or acting against it would be the worst possible course of action IMO.
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  17. Brenapp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2012
    star 2
    I think there's a line early on in Ambush at Corellia which pretty much states that Han, Leia and Luke are all happy when their kids aren't in the same room with them. Yeah, lots of love and tolerance there......:rolleyes:
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In Black Fleet Crisis- Han's the one in charge of discipline under most circumstances- as the househusband. A case could be made that Leia's distance is due to her full-time, very demanding job as President.
  19. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    just a short reply to your last part: I think even without judging, one can speak up or act upon people treating their kids abominably. though that would be less lecturing/punishing them and more trying to understand their view on things. One does not have to agree with them, yet nevertheless should act to protect children from harm they themselves do not understand. Or at least to help the kids understand why the parents do it that way. Of course that works only if no bad intention on parents part here but just suboptimal methods used f.e. others find questionable. If truly the parents are trying to hurt the kids or do not even recognise they are in their selfish abuse be it as workforce or worse or whatever, then one may try to stop it, help them and the kids. Not just help the kids and condemn the parents. The crux here is, to help all involved parties, to understand them all or try to, and to not judge and condemn but rather open them to different points of views without forcing them on them. Not merely helping the victims only but also those who really need help, those who lost themselves or their moral compass and need someone to listen, to help despite the stuff they did. If judging, help usually, not always though, gets onesided to the victim's getting help and the others being pushed more into their errenous path with resentment, punishment and whatever. though there are nutcases that are tough to help that way I see too!

    Basically, the Jedi way where Jedi do not take sides (I'd be glad if they'd stop taking sides for once :p) but rather become the arbiter who listens to both parties, however bad one might percieve the other.

    but that leads me to another jedi topic I wanted to discuss separate from parenting here if people are interested... Jedi and morality, as well as Jedi and their place in the galaxy.

    the PT had the Jedi as part of the government, taking sides with the galactic government and essentially ignoring Hutt Space, and those parts that are not under Republic control, thus neither ending slave trade, nor involving themselves in stopping other troubles beyond their republican obligation. The order was flawed and that in part lead to the Sith being able to exploit them for the Clone Wars.

    (just noticed.. my short reply is not so short anymore.. oh well)

    After the Jedi Purge, Jedi are stateless and as such not bound by one government, free to act upon their own conscience and morality, or the will of the Force if listening to it for a change. Thus they live in the regions they formerly ignored and help occasionally without drawing too much attention.

    By the time of the OT the order is much more centered and balanced and even Yoda has learned from the orders Prequel flaws, which the EU authors should stop using as blueprint for ideal Jedi Order NOW.

    So, Jedi have the Force, like religion and universal morality, despite the Force being far from universal. Sure all life creates it and all life is created by it, etc. but the Force is not just the Light Side and thus encompasses darkness too, Mortis taoism and that is not what I want to go into now for your sake, but basically, the Force's will is mysterious and guides the galaxy through darkness and light, not prefering one over the other. Balance, not extremes. Yet, the Jedi follow its will as if it is law and wonder when some fall who just follow its will in doing so. Thus, SHOULD Jedi listen to the Force? Should they listen to a government? Are they beyond laws or should they obey them, however flawed they are? Jedi tend to force their opinion on others in that they assimilated several forcecults into the order as well as per Jedi Path book view themselves as superior and ultimate Force belief being true. Very catholic church here. And I do not know if them ignoring all beyoned one government they serve is ideal, then again, them serving just the Force and not tied to any government turns them into lawbreakers sooner rather than later if those are in the way. Not optimal either to get public trust if they are lawless bound only by their blind faith in their deity, the Force.

    Why do I smell Saba fighting Kenth now... well one more incident where the same topic arose and there are many in the EU.

    and I wonder how this Force philo and Jedi positioning plays into Han and Leias beliefs, even Lukes, and their judgments. We know their povs changed/evolved over time.
  20. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I love your points!

    The moment you do - you condemn their actions in-universe. That's what happened with Luke - and I still think it sucks. While Luke & Leia's parenting skills still remain open to discussion.

    Very true, as your other points. We only see the unusual. And this 'seiding kids away in crisis' is widely practiced in RL My (finnish) mom f.ex was in Sweden during WWII. I actually remember I always though sounded like a smart thing to do. (Until she very serious faced stated that she'd never send away her own child, now she'd experienced it. But that's a opinion based on experience - not cultural accept.)
  21. T-boy-wan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2006
    star 3
    Leia FORGOT about Allana in Outcast. Whether she was a terrible mother previously or not, she certainly was at this point. Such a facepalming moment when I'd been trying to convince myself that Han and Leia weren't too bad as parents.
  22. krtmd Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 4
    Well, it's not like she left her locked in the Falcon while she and Han did something else for a few days. Oh wait...
    Last edited by krtmd, Dec 31, 2012
    Robimus and cthugha like this.
  23. cthugha Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2010
    star 3
    Sounds nice -- only I think you can neither understand other people's moral stance in a meaningful way nor make them understand anything about their own moral stance (and its deficiencies) without offering a standpoint of your own. Meaningful communication and debate is only possible if both parties have a recognizable (and admitted) position -- if one is or pretends to be merely a neutral something, a mirror or a sponge soaking up others' moral views, the confrontation will lead to nothing.

    Besides, even to recognize the fact that something that somebody's doing is wrong and to make the decision to interfere you need a moral stance that "judges" other people's actions. I think you're kind of conflating "judging" with "unilaterally declaring something as abhorrent, telling them so and then leaving it at that" here :p
  24. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Did Leia actually ever forgive Darth Vader for his actions? I recall a lot of Luke telling her that she should, but I don't know that she ever took that plunge.

    Anyway, as I already mentioned, I think the story presented in LOTF are getting a little bit twisted here.
  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    well the sponge approach might work... if you see a parent hurting a kid, hurt the parent and ask if he likes that :p

    And this was another example of where language fails what I wanted to express, I see your point there. Leads me to the thought of, are we even meant to ever be neutral? But that is not for here to answer. The mediator bit was more like the Jedi mediate in a conflict without offering their own opinion ideally but listen to both parties and guide them, towards their mutual goal they have to find, not get preset by the mediator. Like in our essays and discussion, we gave points on how it might work to discuss, how one might understand each other instead of joining into the "at each others throats" discussions and show them that some arguments, as your essay pointed out, are leading nowhere with essentialist assumptions. then again that needs two parties willing to be mediated I guess. In cases where that is not possible and they just are not listening or not willing to give up their position, this does not help. But I am convinced, there fate will find a way to teach them a lesson or two.. even if it is neither as fast nor in the way we would expect/wish the lesson to come.

    PS: still your point stands that in order to see the need for such action, you need to judge them. And that is true. So how can/does one live in a world of decisions without deciding, in a world of judgment without judging? Is it possible at all? I still believe it is. Thing is, you can't escape your own moral compass and judging, but you can stop basing actions on your judgement. You may judge them, but in mediating you can not introduce a third party, your own opinion, yet take the two you are dealing with and mediate despite your judgement. One thing in court judges and advocates have to two daily. How can some defend criminals despite condemning them too? They use the technique of leaving their own judgement out for fairness sake. In the end, the mediated resolution shall work for the involved parties, not for you necessarily, but for them. So long that is achieved it is enough.
    Last edited by CeiranHarmony, Dec 31, 2012