Lit Han and Leia in the EU - A Discussion Thread (Life Debt spoilers must be tagged)

I remember when this review show up and when people started to ask where this quote come from because they didn't found nothing wrong about HanLeia marriage in Bloodline, this person posted on her/his blog "yeah, I agree with you!". ??????? but she/he said days before that they lived apart because of fights lol

 

I don't get why Leia keeping Vader's secret from Ben is difficult to understand. In Bloodline shows that she has PTSD and there's things that she even don't want to think. Leia suffered to much in Vader's hands and she had no idea someone could find out about her lineage, it's not like Vader was known as the kindest person in the galaxy.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kylo_Ren?action=history

Well they took out the BS of Han and Leia's tumultuous marriage making Kylo turn to the Dark Side (WTF?) but kept in the part about how their natures' clashed and their busy schedules caused Ben to feel abandoned . Apparently everything Adam Driver says is canon but Pablo Hidalgo's word is worthless.

 

I have my issues with the “Leia and Luke hid the truth from Ben” plotline as it feels illogical and inconsistent with their characters (it’s not like they hid the funeral pyre for Darth Vader in ROTJ) and it just sounds like a cheap justification for adult Ben, who had a privileged upbringing compared to every other Star Wars character, to turn evil. But it is what it is, and so I only hope that writers take care in not using this as argument to woobify Kylo and blame it on Leia/Luke.

 

Any efforts to woobify Kylo Ren by throwing Han, Leia, or Luke under the bus will only build more resentment in me, toward the character and the storytellers, and I already have plenty of that. I already feel a great deal of animosity toward the character, which is a shame considering he's Han and Leia's only offspring. I would have much rather celebrated their child's existence than rue the day he was born.

Holding back on the truth of Vader doesn't even seem like that big of deal to me. Luke and Leia didn't know the truth about their biological FATHER while growing up and found out by other means than being told by trusted guardians. Ben didn't ever meet his grandfather and he was never tormented by him either. Luke and Leia experienced emotional, mental and physical trauma because of Vader. I don't blame Leia one bit for not wanting to talk about it. If an adult Ben can't or won't understand or respect that then that reflects very poorly on him, not Leia.

I've been sparing myself more anguish by avoiding wookieepedia because of all of the bs written about the Solo/Organa family based on Abrams and Drivers words on that documentary. I have no idea why context taken from truncated interveiws would be considered facts, especially when the pieces of the story being discussed hasn't even been told yet.

 

Leia was a groundbreaking female character that, as proven by the reaction to Carrie's death, touched a lot of women. Going forward, I wonder if LFL will continue to break new ground with Leia, or at least keep up with the times? However, I feared that they have already taken her down the path of reducing her to a movie stereotype that many feminists are calling an end to?

Here’s a few excerpts from articles on the subject.

The Intern Cast Explains how the Movie Subverts Working Women Stereotypes
http://www.mtv.com/news/2281091/the-intern-women-in-workplace/

"What I don't like is the female boss stereotype that I've seen in too many movies," Meyers told MTV News at a recent press day ahead of the film, when asked which stereotype drove her crazy. "She's mean, perhaps a sexual predator for the younger men in the office. She doesn't have a home life. She's unhappy.

Luckily, Anne Hathaway’s Jules Ostin is none of those things in “The Intern,” though it was a totally different stereotype that makes the actress squirm, saying that in movies, “children [of working mothers] hate them.” While in real life, of course, “children love their mothers, until they don’t. And then there’s this period where it doesn’t matter if you’re working or you’re at home, teenagers just…don’t get along.”

“That’s one of the things I love about ‘The Intern,’ is my character has a great relationship with her daughter,” she continued. “And her daughter is in no way traumatized by having a working mother.”


9 Female Movie Stereotypes We Should Kick to The Curb
http://thelala.com/9-female-movie-stereotypes-kick-curb/

The Workaholic

This character is pretty simple: she’s an intelligent, ambitious, and driven working woman. She’s landed her dream job doing something she loves, so she spends most of her time at the office. Overall, she has her life together (except for the romantic department, of course). When she finally falls for Mr. Right, her job interferes with the relationship, and she’s forced to make a decision. Referencing The Devil Wears Prada once again, Anne Hathaway’s character is the workaholic. After her career takes off, her relationship with her boyfriend suffers, and she’s given an ultimatum. But why should she have to pick? Why is it so unimaginable that a woman can be as dedicated to her career as her significant other?

Cate Blanchett slams Hollywood stereotypes of mothers
http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Cultur...nchett-slams-Hollywood-stereotypes-of-mothers

"When anyone plays a mother on film, there is a whole raft of judgment in that a mother is a particular archetype or that every mother is the same," she said.

"That's complete rubbish. We did discuss a lot about that particular issue because of course there is a judgment on how women parent.

"The film actually deals with it really beautifully and deeply and emotionally."

She added: "It's a certainly a question that's never asked of men. The question is only ever directed towards of women.

"How do you balance? How do you have it all?"

8 Stereotypes About Working Mothers We Need to Abolish
https://www.bustle.com/articles/110066-8-stereotypes-about-working-mothers-we-need-to-abolish

Society depicts working moms as, say, Meryl Streep’s character in The Devil Wears Prada, implying that working moms are good at their jobs, or at raising their kids, but very rarely are they depicted as both.

They Don't/Can't Pay Enough Attention to Their Families

This is the most prevalent and tired criticism that all working mothers face, despite it being so false. If men who work can still be great dads, then obviously same can be said for working mothers. Sure, working moms have to focus on their jobs during the day, but that’s only from 9 A.M. to 5 P.M., and you can be damn sure that the rest of their time is 150 percent devoted to their families.


Their Children Resent Them for Working

No. Just, no. Studies actually show that children with working mothers are better off, so shut it down.

​

4 Working-Mom Stereotypes That Need to Go
4 Working-Mon Stereotypes that need to go
http://www.payscale.com/career-news/2016/07/working-mom-stereotypes


It seems that mothers are faced with a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” scenario when it comes to juggling career and family. You’re a bad mom if you aren’t 100 percent focused on your kids, but you’re also a bad employee if you’re not 100 percent plugged into work. Typically, what ends up happening is that the pressure coming from both sides causes working mothers to feel inadequate, and they end up burning the candle at both ends as they overextend themselves as mothers and professionals. Eventually, they can burn out.

The good news is, we can all do our part – working mothers or not – to help eradicate common working-mom stereotypes so that our colleagues can have the same opportunities, support, and encouragement that every individual needs in his or her career.

1. Working moms are bad, neglectful moms because they’d rather be at work than with their kids.

Building a successful career and being a good mother aren’t mutually exclusive, and doing both simultaneously should never be considered neglect. In fact, a 2015 Harvard study found that being a working mother actually encourages your kids to be successful – like mother, like daughter/son, apparently.

Women are actually killing it in the business world. According to American Express OPEN’s The 2014 State of Women-Owned Business Report, there were some 9.1 million women-owned enterprises in 2014. These companies employed nearly 7.9 workers and generated over $1.4 trillion in revenue. More impressively, the number of women-owned businesses grew 1.5 times the national average from 2007 to 2014, with revenue and employment growth for women-owned businesses topping that of all other types of business (with the exception of the largest, publicly traded corporations). With stats like these, working mothers aren’t being neglectful, they’re being exceptional role models to their children.

Burying The Busy Business Mom Stereotypes
https://www.forbes.com/sites/debora...e-busy-business-mom-stereotypes/#66b276bc1f3b


And yet, despite the upgrade in everything from technology to lifestyle choices, women everywhere still feel the pinch of the age-old stereotypes associated with having it all: apparently you can't. Something always has to give, if pop culture has taught us anything. A mom devoted to her career is depicted as being a slave to her workspace and distant from her home life or forgetful of the important moments there. Or a mother who spends her time with her kids is looked down on by working girlfriends and is told by too many that this was her decision, her choice and made to feel bad because of it.

 

I think the idea of 'having it all' is a load of crap for both men and women. It's why, in generational terms, more men are using their paternity leave where they can get it, because they do appreciate that that time with their kids doesn't come again, the job? That'll still be there.

It may be that in a particular relationship one partner is better suited to working than the other, so an arrangement is decided, or both work part-time in one way or another, there won't be a one-size-fits-all template here. Just what gets decided by people.

It'll probably take 5-10 years or longer, but eventually stories will catch up to the social reality. Some people, however, will remain the judgemental gits they always were.

 

Pablo Hidalgo even commented that he is totally against "women can't have a career" or "Han didn't grow up". It's good that LFL group know that fans don't like it but they need to show that they don't agree with it in their books/movies.

Of course maybe just Norra thinks that way but still is unnecessary another woman thinks like "dude she needs to choose between her family or work". No, she doesn't need to choose lol. What she could do? Stay in home 24 hrs just because she is mom now? Breha and Bail was 24hrs with her?

 

It's always women who have to "choose between family and work", never men. They can't have both.

Leia is already getting slammed by people saying "Shara Bey and Kes made the right decision and left the Rebellion to be good parents to Poe! Leia never made that sacrifice, that's why Poe turned out great and Kylo is all screwed up". (A lot of these same people also want Episode IX to end with Rey leaving the Resistance/Jedi world to go make babies with Kylo while Kylo goes into exile so I can see why they're not so pro women having careers....)

Also sexist so many people assume Han wouldn't be a good father because he's an alpha male, therefore of course he couldn't be nurturing and kind to his child.

 

Shara still worked as part of the civilian defense of their colony (unfortunately she died 6 years after Endor). She just wasn't in mission all the time (like Leia, who became a New Republic Senator).

 

Did we ever learn how shara died?


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By the time Leia was a mother she was no longer fighting in the Rebellion. She was a senator and I'm sure many of the other senators were also parents. In fact, Leia's own father was a senator and a great father at the same time. Why is it that Bail Organa could pull it off but his daughter couldn't? Daughter like father were both dedicated to fighting causes. And I'm sure most kids would prefer a working parent to a dead one. The list is long for Star Wars characters who grew up with only one or no parents.

Shara and Norra both left their sons for an extended period of time while they fought in the rebellion. It appears that Norra will also continue to work after the rebellion. Leia wasn't a mother while fighting in the rebellion, and by the time she founded the resistance, her son was a full grown man who hopefully didn't need mommy to wipe his nose for him any longer.

I agree that Han is a victim of sexual stereotyping as well. I still have hope that the coarse LFL seems to be taking with these characters will change. It's not set in stone until it's told in a story. I think that I'll know more about if I'll stick with this new canon or not after episode viii is released.

 

I actually read criticism of Leia that when she was asked what she wanted to do in her retirement she said she wanted to travel with Han instead of go live on the same planet her son was on. Ben is 23! That would be like a retired wife moving to her son's college town and moving in with him.

Has anyone here seen the new movie Logan?

Spoiler

The way Hugh Jackman played Wolverine reminded me a lot of how Harrison Ford played Han in TFA - someone who's lost everything and is a husk of their former self. Patrick Stewart as Professor X also made me think of what Mark Hamill will be like in Episode VIII playing the teacher who's lost all his students through a terrible tragedy.

 

See I just have a hard time believing that, given all of the trouble that having her true lineage hidden from her caused Leia, that she'd do the same thing to Ben. Also I feel like Luke would hold Anakin up as an example of how virtually no one is "irredeemable." But that would require him acknowledging that Anakin was Vader.

And it's hard to believe that BOTH of them never considered the possibility that keeping this secret from Ben might just cause problems down the line. They're both smarter than that.

 

Right.

I mean if it was just a case of Leia Organa never happening to mention “oh by the way, I’m actually Luke’s sister and Vader is my father”, I would get it.

But this more a case of Leia and Luke doing concentrated efforts on hiding the truth after they revealed to the world they were magically twins, which is what feels out of character. (really, nobody asked them who is the mother and the father? And surely, someone – if not just historians - would also question how Luke managed to escape the Death Star II, did he kill the Emperor, and why was he doing a funeral pyre for Darth Vader. They would have to straight up lie if they wanted to hide the truth.)

I suppose that in the case of Leia you can make up excuses like “oh she had PTSD” which I guess…okay, but that’s just not how I imagined Leia from the movies would deal with PTSD. No matter what, she had always been brutally honest and ready to face the worst. But whatever. Either way, it does not make any sense that Luke would do the same. And I agree, he would use Anakin/Vader as an example that the light side always triumphs.

 

Well that's what happens unfortunately when the movie's creative team wants to basically recreate another movie - you get plotlines that don't make a lot of sense and characters acting out of character.

 

To be fair, TFA never states that Han & Leia didn't tell Ben about Vader. It doesn't go into how or when he found out at all really, just that he knows it now.

 

I agree I think it's out of character for Leia to hide something like that from Ben. Whatever you can say about her flaws, she's honest to a fault with the people she cares about. I feel like TPTB are setting up for Ben finding out his grandfather was Vader to be the catalyst for his turn, which is exceedingly lame to me since he never met Vader and he had been dead for 24 years when Ben turned.

Also, how adorbs is this? From a children's book:

 

Leia is the adopted daughter of a male politician and activist.

I wonder if, and how LFL will assist to alleviate the double standard imposed on mothers? Here's a timely article in the New York Times on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/us/women-politics-voters.html?_r=0

Mothers Seeking Office Face More Voter Doubts Than Fathers
By SUSAN CHIRA MARCH 14, 2017

Portraits of candidates with their children are a campaign staple, but they may hold particular pitfalls for women: A new study has found that it’s harder to reassure voters that women who run for office can balance work and family.

In the latest examination of the double standards that continue to afflict women in politics, voters were most concerned about how married and single mothers of young children would juggle responsibilities to their office and their family, but far less worried about fathers whose wives also worked.

Drawing on 11 focus groups in five cities and an online survey of 1,000 likely voters, all conducted before the election, the Barbara Lee Family Foundation tested voter reactions to an array of candidates: married mothers of young children, single mothers, unmarried women without children, lesbian couples with children, divorced women and married fathers with young children.

The researchers described profiles of fictional candidates and then tested the effectiveness of responses those candidates could make to possible political attacks or voter doubts.

Even voters who worried that fathers might shortchange either their young children or their office were reassured if the candidates issued statements addressing that concern. But they continued to hold the strongest doubts about married mothers of young children after they issued similar statements.

“We confirmed that traditional gender roles are still powerful, influencing what we perceive to be acceptable and appropriate behavior for men and women,” said Adrienne Kimmell, executive director of the foundation. “For example, despite sweeping societal changes, many people still assume motherhood is a central role for women. That, in turn, affects how they view women candidates.”

Many women who have run for office echoed the study’s findings.

Jane Swift, who was pregnant while she was campaigning for lieutenant governor of Massachusetts in 1998, set off a national debate about political office and motherhood. Later, she drew criticism for asking aides to babysit for her daughter and for using a state helicopter so she could fly home to see her when she was sick and avoid Thanksgiving traffic. Her pregnancy with twins when she was serving as acting governor renewed the debate.

Ms. Swift believes a double standard still operates

“The governor dad who takes his kids along to the county fair is a huge political asset, but it doesn’t work as well for the governor mom,” said Ms. Swift, now the chief executive of Middlebury Interactive Languages, an education company. “Being with children was seen as being distracted from doing your job. I found that part of my challenge was that whenever folks started to think about my children, it just took all the oxygen out of the room. Nobody knew all the work I was doing on educational reform or the work I did to improve the lives of foster children.”

She said that the criticism had prompted her to wall off her professional and personal lives, but that doing so also had a political cost. “I was most successful politically when I shut down the ability for the public to have a view into my private life,” she said. “That’s unfortunate, and it made it harder for me to be relatable to folks.”

The new study suggests that women in office or seeking it must confront any criticism, and it offered templates for how to do so based on the focus group and survey responses.

The voters interviewed, both women and men, understood that they were judging women more harshly, but many believed that the presence of a mother was more important for young children and saw women as nurturers. Candidates’ responses were most effective when they offered specific examples of their commitment to their children, explained their support systems at home without going into too much detail about their personal lives, and then moved quickly back to policies.

The study did find some signs of changing attitudes. Voters balked, for example, at criticism of divorced candidates and did not seem interested in the dating lives of candidates, whether men or women. They were accepting of lesbian couples with children, particularly if there was a mother at home caring for young children.

Annise Parker, the mayor of Houston from 2010 to last year, said there had been political benefits when she and her wife adopted children during her tenure, even though her wife was working. “People want to know you understand their lives,” she said. “Having a family and being able to share my experiences with folks as a family with kids was helpful.”

“I would make a joke and say, ‘They’re in high school, they don’t want to be with me anyway,’” she said. “All the moms would roll their eyes and laugh and go on.”

In fact, after mothers of young children, voters harbored the most doubts about unmarried women without children, fearing that they would not understand issues important to their lives, Ms. Kimmell said

Ayanna Pressley, a Boston city councilor, was unmarried and childless when she first ran for office. “I had women say to me, ‘I don’t know if you can relate to my life because you’re not married and you don’t have a kid in the school district,’” she said. ”Well, that was the story for most women of color — unmarried and single; a caregiver to my mother, who I’ve since lost to leukemia. I would say, ‘Just because I don’t have a child in the school district doesn’t mean I feel any less of a moral obligation to them.’”

Ms. Swift, for one, said she had found private life far more forgiving of motherhood.

“I still have bad days, running through the airport to get back for my daughter’s hockey banquet,” she said. “But I don’t have to justify every one of those choices to the public. I still believe I was a better mother because I was a governor, and a better governor because I was a mother. I wouldn’t change anything, except for society a little more quickly.”

A version of this article appears in print on March 15, 2017, on Page A11 of the New York edition with the headline: For Mothers Seeking Office, a Familiar Double Standard.

 

"ScreenJunkies‏ Verified account @screenjunkies 6m6 minutes ago
Look Disney, we know you own Han Solo, but re-using animation is one thing, character design though?
"

And Leia/Rapunzel has a big hair and only discover about their biological family during adult life. Lol now I want this scene with HanLeia

 

Great tumblr post on the comparison of family man husband and father Han in the old EU vs. man child can't settle down in the new EU: https://corellian-smuggler.tumblr.c...arming-tothelast-the-concept-of-han-solo-that

 

Yup - both Han Solo trilogies projected the idea of a decent man whose callousness is mostly a facade, developed out of the hard things he's been through.

I'm wondering how much of that will make it into the Han Solo movie - the general idea of Han as "idealist turned cynic".

 

I'm sort of dreading out Han will be written in the new Han Solo movie. Kasdan always equates Han = Indy, so I'm thinking he's just going to write him as a pseudo-Indy, someone who could NEVER settle down and is a perpetual manchild roaming the galaxy swindling and looting.

Then a million more stupid articles will come out how the Han Solo movie explains how of COURSE Han and Leia could have never worked out because Han's not the "type" to settle down. Or that Han and Leia didn't work out because Han never got over "insert new love interest".

 

The EU (Han Solo Adventures, Marvel SW) tended to portray him as Indy-like in a different way - regularly getting involved with interesting archaeological discoveries, even before Raiders of the Lost Ark came out.

 

Yeah, that'd be fine. I'd expect that he's been having adventures and all that before ANH. It's more I have a problem with the way Indy treats women terribly and behaves like a perpetual manchild even in his 60s. Han isn't Indy, but I feel like Kasdan doesn't see the difference. Kasdan's the one who always compares Han and Leia to the incredibly dysfunctional Rhett and Scarlet and wanted ROTJ to end with Han and Leia breaking up.