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Lit Han and Leia in the EU - A Discussion Thread (Life Debt spoilers must be tagged)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by unicorn, Feb 10, 2016.

  1. Trip

    Trip Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2003
    I normally avoid commenting on nucanon ancillary stuff because surprise, I hate it, no need to drive that point home, and nobody likes a wet blanket, but oh my god i hate everything about this and i can't hold it in. What the actual hell. Why does Leia know or give a crap about who Padme is. Why is she referring to her as her mother, without any qualifiers. Why is she hoarding ****ing gowns. Why is she daydreaming about a hypothetical granddaughter wearing ****ing gowns that were owned by her useless bio mom. AHHHHHHH
     
    CT-867-5309 likes this.
  2. Giovs

    Giovs Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2013
    I think Han and Leia fans will be happy to know that The Last Jedi did nothing to support the "Ben turned to the dark side because Han and Leia sucked as parents" theory. In one point, Ben even says "I didn't hate him" when speaking about Han.
     
  3. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Really glad to hear that, after all the pre-TLJ publicity of Adam going out about how Han and Leia sucked as parents, I was really worried they were going to go there. Though, I guess for Luke fans the blame has now shifted onto Luke, poor Luke fans.

    I wish they had made mention of a funeral for Han or some kind of reference to Han and Leia's marriage at least. I also don't understand why Leia didn't bring the dice from the Falcon with her when she left Crait
     
  4. masterskywalker

    masterskywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    It actually didn't

    TLJ spoilers

    Kylo is shown as being, essentially, a force anti-Christ. He was already fallen before Luke ever took him to be trained. He's the anti-Anakin.
     
  5. Giovs

    Giovs Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 29, 2013
    I think she left the dice behind so Ben could find it and feel regret or something.
     
  6. Thrawn082

    Thrawn082 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Also it was "Ben fell, because Luke was an out of character idiot, which is almost as bad imo.
     
  7. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I posted this a day ago and it still feel accurate now:

    My current outlook on SW:

    [​IMG]
     
    Gharlane likes this.
  8. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    To be fair, is it stated in the movie that Ben had already gone to the darkside by the time that scene happens, because Reasons Who Cares. But it doesn't change the fact that Rian wrote Luke bafflingly ooc just to woobify Kylo Ren.
     
  9. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001

    Yeah, I know it was given as a "multiple POV situation" but to a lot of fans who get introduced to SW through the ST, I fear they're going to see Luke as the villain, just like how a lot of ST fans consider Han and Leia villains instead of heroes after TFA.

    I did love hearing the Han and Leia theme play when Luke said "Han was Han about it, but Leia trusted me with her son' and when Luke gave Leia the dice. I do wish there was some kind of memorial for Han or Leia at least mentioning their marriage though. I know she's stoic and "we have no time for sorrows", but some acknowledgement that she's a grieving widow would have been a nice touch, especially since so many people thought from TFA that Han just knocked her up and ran away and they were never married.
     
    Claire1976 likes this.
  10. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    How old were Ben when he stop living with Leia and Han? The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi showed it
    [​IMG]
     
    MrDarth0 likes this.
  11. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    How old were Ben when he stop living with Leia and Han? The Art of Star Wars: The Last Jedi showed it
    [​IMG]
     
    Claire1976 and unicorn like this.
  12. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Thanks Jedi Jessy, what's the description of that pic? When he went Dark or just when he was sent away?

    I'd say he's 13, 14 in that pic? Older than the Harry Potter kids when they went to Hogwarts anyway.... :p
     
  13. MattOrgana

    MattOrgana Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2015
  14. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
  15. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    I think Han's character regression wasn't mentioned as much as Luke's character regression because most people remember Han more from ANH when he was a selfish scoundrel vs. the reformed good guy hero in ROTJ because his character was kind of sidelined in ROTJ with not much to do. With Luke, his most memorable moment is throwing away his lightsaber when confronting Vader, so the regression in TLJ is more obvious.

    My longer thoughts on TLJ here: https://ewokkey.tumblr.com/post/168615306686/my-thoughts-on-tlj (warning super long post)

    This is sweet though: https://ewokkey.tumblr.com/post/168795146806/every-day-is-star-wars-day-oh-sob Leia wearing an Alderaanian mourning braid over Han. I really wish TLJ had at least had Leia mentioning Han or some mention of being married to him.

    Someone else on Twitter said that the Resistance bombs had "Han says hi" in Aurebesh on them which is pretty cool. Shows Han was involved in the Resistance for at least a while before Ben want bad.
     
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  16. MattOrgana

    MattOrgana Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 7, 2015
    The Biggest Revelations From The Last Jedi's Official Guidebook

     
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  17. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    Spoilers for TLJ:

    Rian here seems to imply that Han and Leia were crappy parents by saying Kylo relates to Rey's parents discarding her like garbage:

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/rey-the-last-jedi?utm_term=.tiNz40npa#.wox7Naxmp

    "Of course, this being Star Wars, the news about Rey's parents comes cloaked in a bit of mystery: She's told about them by Kylo Ren (Adam Driver), the central villain of the new trilogy who nonetheless forms a surprising psychic bond with Rey over the course of The Last Jedi. In the film, Kylo appears to believe that Rey was discarded by her parents, much like he feels his parents, Han and Leia, discarded him.

    Still, Kylo has embraced the dark side. So could he be lying? "I think that Kylo feels that he's telling the truth, and I feel that Rey believes him in that moment," Johnson said, choosing his words carefully. "I don't think that he's playing chess there. I think that this is something that he genuinely saw, and genuinely believes that because of this connection [they share], basically. It's less like, 'I can use this on her.' It's more, 'Oh my god, we have this in common, this is more of a kindred spirit that even she realizes.'"

    This makes me worried we'll read something like this in the novelization that Kylo was actually talking about Han and Leia when he tells Rey how he parents treated her like garbage.
     
    Jedi Jessy likes this.
  18. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    [face_hypnotized]

    unicorn

    during Rey and Kylo conversation (I think it's in their second Force talk) Kylo talk as if his parents treated him as a garbage. Also Luke thinking in kill young Ben just show Lucasfilm don't care too much about the big three
     
  19. grungebunny

    grungebunny Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    You really don't read nucanon stuff do you? Leia has a strong connection to Padme, its around things related to Padme that Leia's force powers first are shown. She gets vivid dreams of her in Leia: Princess of Alderaan. Sort of like Anakin in episode 3. In comics she gets visions and feelings on Naboo related to images of Padme and places Padme was. In Bloodline we are told both Luke and Leia know about their mother. We've yet to find out how, when. I hope they save that for an animated series. She cares because its her dead mother. Padme doesn't deserve 'qualifiers', she very clearly gives Anakin qualifiers to the point of downright not acknowledging him. As we know, that doesn't go well. Snoke gets to paint a picture of Vader in Ben's head precisely because Leia was in something of a denial.

    As to why she's got her dresses. I would think it makes her feel closer to her mother, especially if she can get force visions off them which is as of yet unconfirmed. She has nothing of Bail and Breha. This is something she can pass on to her grandchildren.They are as much a Skywalker heirloom as Anakin's weapon.
     
  20. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    I've never heard a single person consider Han or Leia a villain. :confused:

    And I doubt that about Luke, anyway. Especially after his final scenes.
     
  21. unicorn

    unicorn Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2001
    LOL stay out of where the Reylo fans hang out then. There’s tons of them who think Han and Leia were abusive parents and are the villains of the OT/ST.
     
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  22. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I saw comments about Han and Leia being terrible parents, or that Han abandoned Leia & young Ben etc
     
    unicorn likes this.
  23. littlepadawan91

    littlepadawan91 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2016
    For almost two years now I’ve been saying that there’s no point fretting over what Adam Driver, JJ or Rian Johnson say about Han and Leia as parents because it’s what makes its way to the canon material that counts. So I said “let’s see what the movie actually tells us”.

    How anyone could interpret the Kylo/Rey dialogue about her parents to mean that KYLO’S PARENTS treated him like garbage is beyond me. It means the exact opposite of that. Just watch the damn scene.

    Rey angrily asks why he killed his father if he didn’t hate him. Kylo throws the question back at her: HER parents (that is, REY’S) treated her like garbage and she still can’t stop yearning for them. It’s her greatest weakness. So what he’s saying is “I didn’t hate my father. On the contrary. I loved him so much that it weakened me and I had to get rid of those feelings”.

    The “Han and Leia were bad parents” narrative already didn’t make sense in the context of TFA. Kylo killed Han because his feelings for his father were quite literally tempting him to turn back to the light. How does that compute with a lousy father that didn’t care for his son?

    But fine. Let’s wait for TLJ. Turns out nothing changed. It’s one of the few plotlines that remained consistent with TFA. Kylo gets his ass handed to him by Snoke because killing Han messed him up entirely. He can’t bring himself to kill his mother. Luke literally says “if you strike me down I’ll always be with you. Just like your father”. That hilarious fit when the Falcon shows up on Crait is yet another example of how any reminder of Han sends him over the edge.

    If not even the movie is enough to ease people’s mind, then I don’t know what to say. It is what it is. I just don’t see the point of actively seeking Reylo shippers’ opinions (those can easily be avoided). They’re by no means representative of the general audience’s perception.

    If I talk about soccer with Arsenal fans, I’m gonna reach the conclusion that Chelsea is the devil incarnate. And this is not even a proper analogy, because a lot of Reylos are fans of Han and Leia and root for Ben’s redemption for their sake. I’m not a Reylo, but I include myself in this group. It’s what Han and Leia would have wanted, so it’s what I want too.

    All things considered, I’m at peace with how they ended up. Of course it could have been better, but they had more than 20 years of happiness. Leia had a great last movie. Han’s death was bittersweet as a conclusion to his 40 years long arc from a selfish scoundrel to a man who put everything on the line for his son and the woman he loves. I’ll never agree that TFA regressed his character.

    That may sound too optimistic, but the thing is... I’m not an optmistic person in general. At all. So that says something.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2017
  24. Endor_boy

    Endor_boy Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 24, 2013
    TLJ converted me to being a Reylo shipper, but I don't think all Reylo shippers are going to be the same. I loved their connection and their chemistry and dynamic, but I still don't blame Han and Leia for his problems, and I'm still conflicted on Kylo because of his murder of Han. Before TLJ I wanted Kylo to die at the end, I didn't even want him to be redeemed. At this point I'm open to him being redeemed but he's really going to have to do the hard work of earning it to satisfy me.
    I'm aware that some people think Kylo can't do any wrong somehow and that just makes no sense to me. Just because I'm now finding him interesting doesn't mean he's not evil or that his actions are wrong. I've never understood people who will be blind to their favorite's faults. Their faults are often what make them the most interesting.