Lit Han and Leia in the EU - A Discussion Thread (Life Debt spoilers must be tagged)

I was pissed at that too. Too much fanboy service, not enough depth. In order to mourn the loss we need to really feel. The whole story would have worked better with H/L as a team trying to bring their son back when fighting against his organization.

I can live with it, but to me it is so out of character. That isn't the Han we saw in Empire or Jedi. The one who risked his life for his friends and was willing to step away when he thought he was in a love triangle.

I have mixed feelings on the whole story. If we try hard enough maybe somebody will listen to us.

It's like we know them better than the writers. As much time as we spend analyzing and watching them we should. JJ seems to be wanting to go back three steps instead of forward.

I like the new characters, but I'm as disappointed with how they handled our favorite characters as many others were with the PT.

It's like we may have watched the same film, but saw different movies.

I can only pray that the new EU gets it right. One doesn't have to become a Cleaver to be a good parent and love their partner until death they do part

I was right about George selling to Disney. They have a way of mucking up too often.

I wonder what George's version would have been, but I guess we'll never know. He shouldn't have let them have his sandbox.

It would have been so much better with them as a couple and Kylo humanized more as how he was as Ben.

I agree that it was handled all wrong. I'm not a total hater it basher, just deeply disappointed and feeling like they ignored a large part of the fan base, to say nothing of destroying almost all the character development of the OT.

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I may have over prepared myself because I figured it would happen months before the movie came out. I needed to know two things before watching the movie, was Han going to die? And were Han and Leia still together? I'd been a Han Solo/Princess Leia/Han & Leia fans since 1977. I really expected to cry during that scene, and actually almost didn't go because I kept thinking that Han is still alive as long as I don't see him die. Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous. Then for some reason I felt oddly detached when I watched it. I went back and saw the movie a second time and still no tears, and I cry very easy over sad movie scenes. I had my tissues in my purse all ready. And it certainly wasn't because of the acting because Ford and Driver were excellent.

 

I read a review that said that TFA is actually a more fitting sequel to ANH-ESB than ROTJ, with the character regression back to their ANH personalities, Han and Leia's relationship being depicted more like the ESB type than the mature, loving one we saw in ROTJ and most of the throwbacks to ANH and ESB.

Also the idea that Han Solo, galactic hero with a famous ship could go back to a discrete profession like smuggling makes no sense. How was he not recognized everywhere he went?

The old EU did this really well in the later books (The Bantam era struggled to find a place for Han post ROTJ but Del Rey did much better.) Han was still a wisecracking scoundrel while being a devoted husband and father. It isn't black and white. I hope the new EU follows suit by showing Han as a good father and husband while still getting to get his thrills with his dangerous career of being a racing pilot. When they do show Han separated from Leia, I hope the books show him as being heartbroken that he isn't with his family and not like a divorcee happy to be back to his bachelor days. How can he be happy when his son is a mass murderer and he's separated from the love of his life? I really don't want the new generation of Star Wars fans to remember Han as a petty smuggler and deadbeat dad as a lot of them seem to see him now. I want to see his heroic arc continue after ROTJ and see him grow as he takes on responsibilities as a husband and father.

Funny, I just saw the Fuller House trailer on Netflix (looks cheesy as expected) and was surprised to see Uncle Jesse and Aunt Becky are still together. I guess I'm so used to revivals breaking up long-standing couples (Han and Leia, Mulder and Scully) I just expect every couple back in a revival to now be broken up

EDIT: Here's a nice Han/Leia quote from Smuggler's Run. Anyone who's read the book can tell me if there's any other good Han/Leia stuff in it?

She was angry and not afraid to show it, and Solo had to admit he took a certain pleasure in winding her up. Her buttons were so easy to press. She was, undoubtedly, one of the most beautiful women he had ever met, and coming from Han Solo that actually meant something, because he’d seen a lot of the galaxy and his share of beautiful women. That she was smart, brave - perhaps, given her position in the Rebellion, suicidally so - and gave as good as she got only made her more attractive to him. She was also stubborn as a gundark, and he appreciated that too. In fact, he kinda liked her, especially with all they had been recently been through together with the kid and the old man.

 

Hmm, mulling things over - Ben falling in his early twenties would have a certain sense to it, in that people tend to think they know everything about everything at that point and how the world should be, but they just aren't running it! So Snoke comes along and says: Hey, I can give you that kid, you don't have to be some management consultant, you'd be in charge of the galaxy and out-doing your parents and really showing them how it's done, what do you say?

Jump forward six years and doubts are starting to arise in his mess of a head....

 

I can see that, as a parallel to what happened with Anakin. Except it took his son's love to save him. Who gets through to Ben, anybody?

At least the novelizations acknowledges their love with last thoughts being of her and wanting to go back.

Hopefully Bloodlines will give her point of view on him. They always work best when they are you together. I always thought they would be the united we stand type of couple.

They were both smitten and stubborn. Like I said, they enjoyed pushing each others buttons. I missed that banter.

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I would like to think Leia will be the one to reach Kylo, but given that they totally ignored the mother/son relationship in TFA and sidelined Carrie Fisher, I'm not too optimistic. I'm actually not super excited about Episode VIII and IX. Seriously, how has Leia not hurled herself off a bridge with all she's gone through?

I wonder if part of Ben's weakness will be that with having galactic heroes as his mother, father and Uncle he felt like he could never live up to such legacies. He was born into privilege and likely spoiled. Then maybe Luke held back on his training because of his fears over Leia's concerns about him going Dark. Snoke comes along and promises him he can be more powerful than everyone, including his Uncle Luke. (Your son was weak and foolish...)

Some people in TFA forums are trying to say than Jen Heddle's tweets can't be interpreted as Han and Leia still being together in Bloodline because the wording of the tweet is

Jennifer Heddle ‏@jenheddle 20 Dec 2015
@amaraz43 We will definitely show happier H/L times in our books...check out Bloodline next year!

IMO, there's no other way to interpret the tweet other than that the happier H/L times are in Bloodline, but some people will see what they want. I think a lot of Kylo fans want him to have gone Dark at 15 because that goes better to the "Poor misunderstood child, it's not his fault his parents didn't love him enough" trope. If he falls at 23, you really can't blame his parents since he'd have been away from them for several years by then.

 

Unless he was a small child, he was an individual who knew right from wrong and made his own choices

That's on him, not his family.

He may have had all kinds of reasons in his mind, excuses. But ones parents are not responsible for a grown child's choices.

Regardless of how he felt about his parents, he alone made the choice to do everything he did. Snoke I'm sure was manipulating him, but his parents could only do so much.

I'm thinking there may have been a catalyst of some kind that ultimately set him off, and made him hate his father and the boy he used to be. Something that caused Leia to send him away and started the downfall of their marriage.

Something that led him to commit the massacre.

Just like Anakin showed disturbing behavior before he went off, but it wasn't' until Palptatine got to him with promises of saving Padme, that he slaughtered all the Jedi in the temple. When he believed Padme had betrayed him with Obi-Wan who then confronted him, that's when he reached the point of no return. Padme's death just solidified his darkness and his lack of any emotion.

I am thinking something of a parallel nature may have been going on with Ben.

I agree that he didn't go bad until his early 20's at least. Bloodlines shows them in happy times, that means Ben hasn't turned into Kylo yet, even if he shows some disturbing behavior traits.

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Jedi Ben
A big hello to you! Yeah, I remember the H/L Lit thread. Spent a fair amount of time there back in the good old days.

You folks have been busy in my absence and I don't know where to start.

Interesting article and the author hit on some of the things that have bothered me. Taking Han back to his smuggling days was a stupid idea in my opinion and only served to regress his character development. For one thing, I've never thought of him as being a coward who would run away from something because it gets tough, especially when it involves the people he loves. Maybe I'm totally off base and it's just my head canon speaking, but I always felt he smuggled as a means of survival, but it wasn't really what defined him as a person. His enrollment in the Academy was his attempt at making a better life for himself, although it's hard to say whether or not the new EU will follow this same life course for him. I do know, however, it was GL's own vision of the character. And I certainly don't believe that smuggling was the only thing he was good out. In fact, considering how he always seemed to be in hot water with one gangster or another, I'd say he wasn't very good at it at all. What he was good at, in my opinion, was as a military leader and I felt that was evident as to how easily he seemed to fall back into that role during the planning session on how to destroy Starkiller Base. Having met and married Leia he was finally able to have the life I believe he hoped to have and gave him some respectability, proving he was worthy of her love. Turning him back to his ANH self only served to tarnish the good name he had made for himself as a war hero.

As for Han's death, I had unintentionally happened onto spoilers and knew what was going to happen, so like others here, I went prepared with a package of tissues. I did not shed one single tear and I'm a huge Han Solo fan. What I felt was shock they'd actually kill off such a beloved iconic character, disappointment over losing this character that I love so much, and anger at those who made that decision. But I think the one thing that disappoints and disheartens me the most is the fact that there was more flak over Chewie's death in a book, then over Han's in a movie. I just find this very sad. We all have our opinions on this issue and I respect those that differ from mine, but I'm not convinced his death was necessary. Whether or not I follow the saga forward, I'm really not sure at this point. As much as I love Leia, Luke and Chewie, I can't imagine a Star Wars film with all of them involved and not Han. I'm afraid it would be too depressing. As the saying goes 'time heals all wounds' so maybe I'll feel differently by the time the next one rolls around, but for now I'm really not certain.



unicorn

Smugglers Run is mostly a good Han and Chewie book, but there is some good Han and Leia interaction in the first chapter. You might enjoy this part:

"I'm not part of this!" Han Solo said. "I'm not a part of your rebellion, I'm not a freedom fighter, and I don't work for you, Your Highness!"

Princess Leia Organa of Alderaan took two quick steps forward, her face tilting up to glare at the smuggler. If Solo's nearly half a meter of height over her impressed her at all, it didn't show. She raised an index finger, directing it at the smuggler as if contemplating poking him in the eye.

"If you worked for me," she said, "I'd have fired you already."

"If I worked for you, lady, I'd have quit." Solo crossed his arms, certain he had, for the moment, claimed the last word.

The princess remained motionless for a moment using a glare that had once, he imagined, reduced her opponents in the now-dissolved Imperial Senate to tears.

 

Talking of the recent stuff, I really enjoyed Moving Target - has a great concept that really should have been done before but somehow wasn't - how did Leia take the existence of Death Star V2?

 

I just started reading Smuggler's Run. I just got to that part and I had to laugh. I was thinking, oh yeah they're totally smitten kitten..

Even in the beginning he is referencing her. (with Chewie basically thinking "great, they're at it again. ")

He was planning to do what she asked, but didn't want her to know it, with out putting up a fight. He loved riling her up. She would in turn be "game on flyboy", knowing she could get a rise by standing up to him. I think they were both turned on, but wouldn't admit under any circumstances.

I love this description of Han:

Even Chewie could see it.

She knows how to play him.
Game, Set, Match

I'm having copy paste issues, but it goes on with her continuing to guilt him, until she wins.
Of course they were made for each other. He didn't want to give in with out a fight, and she was more than determined to give him one. Using any weapon she could. She knew what would work. He planned to give in all along, he just wanted to have a little fun with her.


I apologize for the goofy formatting. I had to jump hoops to copy paste

 

I have Moving Target but have yet to get to it. I also have Luke's book, The Weapon of a Jedi and the ROTJ rewrite Beware the Power of the Dark Side to read and am only part way through So You Want to Be a Jedi. I better get to it if I want to get all these read before the release of Bloodline. It's been a busy winter.

Edit: Great minds think alike IamZam. I had read that part earlier and was going to post it here as well, you just beat me to it.

 

Yeah. My new rule, no more books downloaded until I read what I have.

 

Frankly, that entire quartet of Journey to TFA books was some of the best SW stories in ages.

You might enjoy this:

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2015/10/force-friday-flashback-so-very-obvious-but-is-it/

 

Yeah, if Ben didn't go Dark until 23, then all this bantha poodoo about Han and Leia being poor parents who made him fall to the Dark Side can be put to rest. Even if Han and Leia were bad parents (and I don't think they were), he would have been out of their care for several years years by then and responsible for his own actions. It's like blaming the parents on a mass shooter who went to college and committed a massacre when he was in his 20s.

I think Leia could feel through the Force he was getting drawn to the Dark Side and maybe he committed some act of violence at school that caused her to be concerned, so she sent him to Luke. I'm curious as to whether they had always planned for him to be a Jedi like the old Solo kids in Legends or they tried to steer him towards something else but then felt like he needed to train because he was getting drawn to the Dark Side.

Sologal

That quote about going back to the only thing he was good at really made no sense to me. He was much more successful as a General for the Rebellion that he ever was as a smuggler. He was in debt to Jabba when we meet him in ANH, then he was being chased around by criminal gangs in TFA, so how good was he at it? And presumably he was good as a racing pilot if he was able to make a living off of it. Seeing Han as a smuggler in debt again didn't make me nostalgic to ANH, it made me think Han looked like a sad pathetic man trying to relive his glory days and failing miserably. I don't know, maybe a good EU author can pull it off in a way that makes more sense.

In the NJO, did Han do anything sketchy while he was estranged from Leia? I seem to remember he just went on missions and was still saving people, just doing it apart from Leia. That was more consistent with his character than reverting back to smuggling IMO.

IamZam

Aww, that's sweet. Not even Luke, only Leia could make Han delay his departure. I always felt like Chewie knew Han had fallen for Leia before Han realized it.

I have a question, I haven't read Smuggler's Run but the beginning has a prologue where Han is pre TFA right? Does it say exactly when it is - is it before or after the Falcon gets stolen? And does Han seem happy in it? Just wondering, it would make me sad if he seemed to be happier in his single pre-TFA days than he was as a husband and father.

 

Smuggler's Run takes place before Han loses the Falcon. There's nothing written to really substantiate this, but I get the impression that he's not a very happy man.

 

It does make reference to him being an old man, and twice he makes reference to one of the women reminding him of somebody .

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He doesn't flirt with her, does he? I hope not...

Sologal, in reference to your comment that people seemed more outraged over Chewie dying than Han, I feel like more of the old Legends fans were fans of the OT and the Big Three. With TFA, you have mostly fans who are invested in Rey, Finn and Kylo and don't care much about the original three, the same way fans of the OT don't care a lot about Obi-Wan and Yoda. Sadly it seems to be out with the old and in with the new. Hence why you see so many teenage Kylo fans so eager to throw Han and Leia under the bus to make Kylo a more sympathetic character that "oh, it's not his fault he fell to the Dark Side, his parents just didn't love him enough."

 

I think the woman he's reminded of though, is the Imperial Officer Alecia Beck or at least that's the impression I got.

 

I haven't read all of it yet, but it didn't sound like Leia



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Was going through Claudia Gray's tweets and she has a bunch of how much she loves the Han/Leia relationship. She even said she used to write fan fiction about them. I really, really hope Del Rey lets her give them some romantic scenes together in Bloodline.

She also said there is a reference to Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy in Bloodline. Wonder what it is? Hopefully not Bria. Maybe a reference to Dewlanna or something.

 

One of the earliest EU decisions I disagreed with was pulling Han out of the military and putting him in a place where he has no real job but could go back to hanging out in cantinas talking to the fringe and dodging bounty hunters and other shady types. Obviously it was because the writers figured Han the scoundrel was what everyone fell in love with and we should just continue seeing that, but I would've found it more interesting if he'd kept going in the new direction ROTJ set him on. I.e. by staying in the military.

 

I certainly agree. I know it was mentioned before, but I was always under the impression that smuggling was just a means of survival for Han. Leadership in the military seemed to be his calling.

 

I agree also. His piloting skills are what he was best at, as well as being a leader.

I see smuggling as something he was familiar with. But was happier as a military leader and boyfriend/ husband.

They risked their lives for each other too many times to walk away.

It's an old cliché, but in this case it's true. They complete each other, like soul mates.

I see the as until death do we part. In good times and bad. They were always better together.

I'm a assume the GFFA would have some kind of similar vows, that they would take seriously.

If my father hadn't passed away 20 years ago, my parents would be celebrating 48 years together.

People can work through bad times, if they both put in the effort. It would have been worth the effort to them.

Look how tight he grabbed her and how she melted in. And the *wink wink* memory of good times.


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Han and Leia made it on the #1 and #7 list of Star Wars Top Romantic Moments: http://www.starwars.com/news/7-of-the-most-romantic-moments-in-star-wars. Nice to see some of TPTB care about them!

Yeah, we saw in the OT that's where his strength lay and it would have made sense for him to continue that post ROTJ. He knew he was more than a smuggler and found something he could belong to when he joined the Rebellion. "You're a good fighter Solo. I hate to lose you" "You're a great help to us. You're a natural leader". Then we see him lead his team in ROTJ. Him in some kind of military leadership role would make sense. The old EU really struggled to find a role for him post ROTJ with him seemingly just going on random missions and being a house husband. It got better post NJO with him teaming up with Leia at least. It'll be interesting to see what the new EU does - maybe he'll be in some kind of military leader role like he was in Shattered Empire then after the Battle of Jakku is where he takes up being a racing pilot.

Wonder how Leia reacted to him being a racing pilot. I could see her not being too thrilled at first because it's a dangerous profession - kind of like the modern day equivalent of race car driving.

 

Just when I think I've seen it all...

!? Eh? What? That's nuts.

Now, on the parenting front, I'm wondering: Do mothers in the US sometimes have the same dragon status so to speak as over here? To wit: "You're in trouble son, I know your mum!" And we know Leia can deliver verbal batterings very well, right?

Because the question over whether or not Ben was loved enough surely pivots around how he was loved. There's been this direction over my lifetime of 'I don't care what they did, they're still family' which has never made any sense to me whatsoever. If one of your family is proven to have killed someone there is no way the relationship with that person continues as it was, nor can I see the killer getting unconditional support from their family after it, yet that outlook says they would. Doesn't add up to me at all.