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CT Han Solo in Rotj

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Dark Ferus, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    Criticism of ROTJ back in 1983 and more recently partially stemmed from poor usage of characters in the film. I see this especially with Han Solo, who seemed to have lost his personality from IV and V. Several other characters like Leia, the droids, Vader and Luke has been criticized for this as well.
     
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  2. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Yeah they were very different though it made the Saga seem epic. Their journey had changed them so it made sense that they would act differently unlike the Emperor who acted all hollow as an evil tyrant would be expected to. A lot had to be done in ROTJ. Big battles, save the day and Han & Leia getting together. The other two films could spend a lot more time of developing the characters & creating the world.
     
  3. theMaestro

    theMaestro Jedi Master star 3

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    Oct 16, 2015
    I think it would have been cool if the movie had followed up on Leia being the "other". Maybe have her do something related to the Force and include her on the Death Star. Or maybe establish that Luke had been teaching her about the Force in between TESB & ROTJ, thereby setting up the possibility that Luke could die with someone still around to continue the fight. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that the movie should have had Luke & Leia in more scenes together since they could've bonded over their mutual Force sensitivity and, you know....their parentage. That relationship had room to grow whereas the Leia/Han relationship felt a bit stagnant since there wasn't anywhere to go for them beyond declaring their love for each other.

    And, going back to Han, he could've started to feel left out and isolated from the other two (kind of like Ron in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows when he feels left out of Harry & Hermione's plans to acquire more Horcruxes). The movie could have then had him go on a solo (no pun intended) mission where we'd feel real tension at the possibility of his death since he's the only lead character on said mission. I think this setup would give each main character something to do:
    1.) Luke: dealing with the truth of his parentage, trying to become a Jedi, resisting the dark side....basically the same stuff he goes through in the film as it is, but with the added bonus of him teaching things to Leia
    2.) Leia: starts learning about the Force, gets more involved in the Vader storyline, might have to come to terms with potentially being the last Force user if Luke dies
    3.) Han: perhaps starts to feel like he's not so needed (even though he & Leia still obviously love each other), volunteers to go on solo (okay, pun definitely intended here) mission where there's a chance he might die

    In the end, I think Han should live and there should still be that same type of reveal where he finds out that Luke & Leia are siblings. Having Han die in the final chapter of the trilogy would be too much of a downer for Star Wars, but I do think it's a good idea to have the audience seriously consider the possibility.
     
  4. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    ROJ is set approx. 1 year after ESB so this may have been the case. Han was gone and Luke knowing that Leia was his sister may have provided her with some lessons in being a Jedi. While Luke was not fully a Jedi at this point he could still impart some knowledge and experience about the force to Leia for the big mission they were going on to rescue Han.

    We don't know for certain what the Rebels did during that year but C-3PO, Chewbacca and Lando were hardly fun to be around for Leia. She had to concentrate on her work with setting up the Galactic Republic, Vader was still out there. Luke had no hand and a new Death Star was being built. I find the idea of Luke filling her in on the role of a Jedi to be important so that the Jedi could continue after him.
     
  5. Negotiator1138

    Negotiator1138 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Mar 23, 2016
    I actually just finished watching TNT and all the while I was thinking how much I loved the character growth. I agree that Empire focused more on character development, and I think the characters we get in ROTJ are the result of that.

    Han and Leia are both more gentle and caring with eachother in this film. Like when Leia couldn't tell him about Luke being her brother, at first he started to walk off, but then he came back, that is a big change for Han. And Leia is all-around more caring throughout. When she is with the Ewoks she is almost motherly, a huge change from her standoffish-rebel attitude in ANH.
    For those two, their biggest part in this movie is showing their change, and it culminating in their romance finally working out.

    For Vader, he is also much softer in this movie. For the previous two he was killing people non-stop, and then he duels his son. That is when the change began I think. We see it in ROTJ when he tells Luke "It is too late for me son." He is already thinking about going back to the light side, he just doesn't think it possible.

    I don't understand the argument that the droids are different, I think they are static characters who are more or less the same through all six films really.

    But finally we come to Luke. This movie is all about him coming to his final maturity, and it is done so well. Like Luke, ROTJ is really about these great character reaching the end of their arcs. This trilogy has changed them all in a great way, and we see that in the finale.

    If the characters had been the same, then it would negate everything that has happened to them up until that point.
     
  6. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 29, 2016
    I say the droids are different in the sense that they aren't used well in the film, like they're there because they need to be.
     
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  7. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Token characters I hear what your saying however I would add none of the droids portrayed in the original trilogy were regarded as much more than background sets. One aspect of ANH that thrilled me was the scene in the Sandcrawler. The droids really come to life and only later when Han, Kenobi & Tarkin were introduced did they take a sidestep.
     
  8. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 9, 2009
    I guess that both the people and the media who criticized and resented Han Solo's change of personality in ROTJ, did so because they had been so attracted by the character's archetype (rogue, brash, dashing, churlish, a bit cynical) in ANH and ESB, that they just couldn't stand to see him evolve that way, sort of "softened up" too much.

    He becomes much more one dimensional in Episde VI, closer to the clear-cut good guy Luke basically is from ANH.


    Couldn't agree more. Especially about Luke's journey towards maturity and the way it's been conveyed onscreen. M.Hamill really delivered an impressive acting performance, along with the screenwriters (Kershner, Lucas) regarding story arc and dialogues of course.

    Indeed, it was more or less unavoidable that the main characters' personalities had to change throughout the series.
     
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  9. Darth Chuck Norris

    Darth Chuck Norris Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 13, 2014

    Except that Luke doesn't know that Leia is his sister, much less about her force sensitivity, until Luke returns to Dagobah to see Yoda. Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Jedi took place closer to 3 years after Empire?
     
  10. LordDallos

    LordDallos Jedi Master star 3

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    Feb 2, 2016
    Yeah, I see Han's acting different in ROTJ as more character development than anything. Han from ANH would have just kept walking when he saw Leia crying. That was Han's character arc. He gained empathy and compassion.
     
  11. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Yep. Han as the loving man who doesn't run from a fight. He embraces it fully.
     
  12. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Darth Chuck Norris at the end of ESB Luke reached out to Leia and she rescued him from Bespin. He was still weak from his encounter with Vader and he had a lot to take in from his stay at Dagobah. Once he got well he would have put all the pieces together and realized Leia was his sister. Than in ROTJ he verbalized what he already knew to be true. That's my reading of the situation. As for the timeline yes it was a year after ESB. Plenty of time to clear his head and train himself to become a Jedi.
     
  13. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 9, 2009
    Kasdan of course...Not Kershner.
     
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  14. Lazy_Ewok

    Lazy_Ewok Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Aug 21, 2016
    I don't have a problem with that, it simply about character development although I like the fact that he is sort of sarcastic in episode 7. Unfortunately the sarcasm seems to be gone in 5 and 6, at least in 6.
     
  15. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    I like him best in Jedi. Good character development to see him mellow a bit after he definitively settled into his new life. Han's pretty annoying to me in ESB to be honest.
     
  16. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    I liked him best in ESB and then ANH and then TFA. I really don't like ROTJ.
     
  17. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    I honestly never had a problem with him in any of the movies, although I thought he was the most interesting in TFA, since we got to see how much he'd changed since ANH.
     
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  18. PaulWrightyThen

    PaulWrightyThen Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jan 11, 2016
    He's a bit too chummy with Lando. I would've liked a bit more suspicion in there.
     
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  19. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I would argue the one thing Han most definitely did NOT lose was personality, he obviously mellowed compared to ANH and ESB but does still have a lot of charm to him and indeed I think Fords comic performance is really what holds the Ewok scenes together, TFA tries for a similar tone quite often but I don't think either the writing nore anyone's performance(including Ford although he is good) is up to that level.

    Personally I think the issue with ROTJ isn't so much Han's arc not being massively strong as really it had reached its natural conclusion but rather Leia's arc being a bit weak after ESB were I'd argue she had become the co lead with Luke. As has been mentioned I think Leia's force abilities could have been played up more with Luke giving her a bit of training then perhaps her using them to help destroy the shield generator(she wouldn't need to be a full blown Jedi, maybe use some simple telekinesis) but I think more than that the film could have exploited the fact that Vader was her father more. When Luke reveals this to her we don't really get much reaction at all, she reacts to him being Luke's father and then Luke being her brother but not what this obviously implies.

    Maybe they could have introduced a bit of conflict here? Leia arguably has more reason to hate Vader and they could potentially have made her react to this negatively, maybe questioning Luke's desire to try and redeem him. That would have I think given even more edge to Vaders baiting Luke about her, we see that yes there is the potential for her to turn and perhaps Luke comments to her that hate is the path to the darkside. A good conclusion to that would I think have been to have Leia with Luke when he burns Vaders body showing both the two of them coming together and her letting go of her hatred of him.
     
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  20. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    All that would add a lot of humanity to the story, and in my headcanon a lot of it happened offscreen.

    From a practical point of view, though, would Carrie Fisher have been up to the task of acting all those scenes and emoting believably? It's my understanding that those were some of her dark days of substance addiction, and I'm not sure she could have handled the pressure. Maybe someone more familiar with her personal life than I am could comment on that?
     
  21. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Pretty much everything different about Han in ROTJ can be explained by 1) having spent a year frozen in living death, which would do a lot to tone down a colorful personality (so really, the real question should be "why isn't he more different?"), and 2) having let go of the "solo" personality and accepted that he's part of the family (so character development, which makes complete sense given what we've seen in the previous two movies plus the fact that when the chips were down, it's his friends, not his lone ranger act, who saved his life).

    I have fewer problems with ROTJ than most, and Han Solo isn't a problem at all - I consider his portrayal a feature not a bug.
     
  22. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    I would say Fisher did a very good job in ESB Sarge, indeed I actually think that kind of role that would keep more of an edge to her character would be more suitable for her than what she got in a lot of ROTJ. To me she always seemed to come across as someone well suited to playing themselves, not a space princess obviously but personality wise and the story I mentioned I think is more naturalistic than a lot of the more over the top soppy stuff she had in ROTJ that she wasn't as great at for me.

    Not really an expert on her private life outside of having seen that Stephen Fry documentary on manic depression/bipolar disorder, I get the sense that was really the serious issue that got progressively worse in the 80's/90's and the drink/drugs were a side effect.
     
  23. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016
    The old ROTJ novelization even mentions this idea in a few places.
     
  24. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013
    I thought Han was ok in ROTJ, he just matured and mellowed out, his character had developed. What I dislike is that in TFA they had him regress back to his ANH state, just lazy.
     
  25. WebLurker

    WebLurker Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 12, 2016

    I don't think he regressed at all. He was trying to go back to way he was, but it was an important plot point that he couldn't. Also, even in his "regressed" state, he's clearly become a different person than the guy we met in the beginning of ANH.
     
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