Discussion in 'Literature' started by dylan24601, Mar 23, 2015.
I wouldn't recognize the Marvel SW characters, but the others are exactly what I was referring.
I only realized after getting the Marvel SW omnibuses - reading them - then rereading the HST.
All the tie-ins to the other books and comics makes the HST one of my most favorite trilogies.
That's what I remember about those books, that they were a virtual smorgasbord of EU references. A.C. Crispin was sort of the Abel G. Pena of her day.
Those references to the Lando trilogy were pretty much the first time those books were ever directly referenced anywhere, IIRC, other than some talk of a WEG "Lando Adventures" sourcebook that never materialized.
I'm sure I saw "The Luceno of her day" somewhere.
The Battle of Nar Shaddaa was one of the more memorable space battles of the Bantam novels, I think.
Stop the author bashing
I do think that those sort of tie-ins make the universe feel "living" so to speak.
That is the fundamental why the new canon doesn't interest me, because they are basically starting from scratch and including stuff I don't believe in.
Dude, seriously just make that your signature. It's quite literally 95 percent of you posts with slight variations, save everybody some time already.
Just set him to "ignore" already. It's not like anything you say is going to make a difference.
That was my first exposure to Soontir Fel.
While it's not a Crispin story - The Yavin Vassilika
is an interesting take on what happened between Han dropping that spice, and Han meeting Luke and Ben in Chalmun's Cantina.
I enjoyed the art in TYV. And those Jawas everywhere.
Another "overlaps with HST" story (a novel, in this case) is Shadow Games. I think there's a reference to Jabba being upset after the Ylesia raid.
I think the Mary Sue character was there to fill a void, which is the lack of female characters in sci-fi/fantasy. Sure, many of these fill-in characters were poorly written but you have to wonder if there were enough female characters already in canon to play with, then there certainly wouldn't have been this need to create these OCs (who are obviously going to feel out of place because they're being inserted into an already established story). That said, any critiques leveled at supposed Mary Sue characters probably also apply to popular male characters like James Bond, Indiana Jones and Batman (who are desired by everyone, insanely competent and too cool for school). Only difference is those guys have history and an established franchise built around them.
For SW in particular, Leia was the ONLY female character of significance for a long time. If you were a girl and your personality didn't quite click with her, then you were out of luck. Mara Jade clearly filled some void otherwise she wouldn't have become such a popular character. In retrospect, Mara Jade really doesn't read as a Mary Sue to me, but more as a "cool girl" - a woman who does everything boys do, who can drink with the boys, but still looks smoking hot.
Mara did not become a Sue until later Zahn books, KJA books and the NJO.
And it certainly is possible for a male character to be a pet. See also: Thrawn and Corran Horn.
I'd argue against the idea that pets/Sues are necessary because there aren't enough female characters. It is possible to fill that void with well-written female characters who mesh well with the other characters instead of being the central focus or taking over.
Sure, but anytime you have to create a new character outside the ~official canon~ fans are a lot less forgiving and any character who displays specialness gets called Mary Sue-ish. As I said, a lot of male characters who lead established franchises could easily be seen as Gary Stus but because they are the LEADS of their own franchises, this criticism doesn't get leveled at them. I guarantee you that if you wrote a character like Katniss but she wasn't a lead in her own franchise, she'd get called a Mary Sue (.. hell I think she still does even now).
To me, Mara Jade has always been a male fantasy character more than a Mary Sue.
People are way-way-way too harsh on these books. They rank very highly in my list of Expanded Universe novels. They're not close to my favorite books (KOTOR, Clone Wars Darkhorse comics, TTT, and so on) but they're definitely better written than the vast majority of Star Wars fiction. They also have an excellent attention to continuity, past uses of Han Solo, and have an imaginative fun use for the character.
What they don't do well is mesh with people's preconceived idea of who Han Solo is, which is something I think people need to get behind. Han Solo as a Dickensian orphan raised by a Wookiee, as a genuine FRIEND to Jabba the Hutt, as a guy who manages to save the whole of Nar Shadda, and an idealist who got burned one too many times is not who many fans saw in their imagination.
But I didn't see that as bad.
Really, the majority of hate is reserved for Bria Tharin in what is possibly the most ridiculous complaint regarding the Han Solo Trilogy. Why? Because Bria Tharin is a GOOD character. She's got an elaborate backstory, sensible motivations, and a heroic death. She's also got plenty of realistic flaws which work well in the storyline.
Yes, people object to Han Solo having any other "love of his life" rather than Leia. That's the thing, though, Bria DOESN'T love Han Solo and vice versa. If Bria loved Han Solo, she wouldn't have betrayed him constantly. It's not just one occasion, it's multiple occasions. Bria always betrays Han because her cause (motivated by revenge and a desire to fill the void in her life) is always more important to her.
The difference between Leia and Bria is Han THOUGHT Bria was an idealistic girl who had a sense of honor. Leia paid Han Solo his reward, Bria cheated him out of it. Bria is a drug dealer, Leia believes the Rebellion has to rise higher than that. Leia always stands by Han when things go to hell. Bria has many wonderful redeeming qualities but they're not the ones which Han could get over because he chooses his friends and family first.
I think she makes a great CONTRAST to Leia in a way which works wonderfully. It's not like Bria is Han's only girlfriend too since Crispin gave Han a much more healthier relationship with Xaverri.
I think the term "Mary Sue" gets overused and the term "pet character" is better. I agree with you to a point, because I am personally not very forgiving of a character who steps in later in the game and takes over the story as opposed to meshing with other characters. But...I love it when a new character comes in, works well with the established characters and contributes to the story rather than taking over it. I am also not very forgiving when an author is obviously more attached to his or her favorite character than the overall plot or the franchise as a whole, and the story reflects that.
I won't get too much into Mara here but I will say that "male fantasy character" is just as pointless and terrible as "Mary Sue" or "pet character." Having a character just for male fantasy purposes (or female fantasy purposes if that happens) contributes nothing to the overall plot.
Also, I *AM* a professional author and every author develops an affection for some characters over others and can even project into them.
To be a Mary Sue requires a number of criteria, the most important?
"The character must suck."
A Mary Sue must be awful or any hero could be one.
Unfortunately, a lot of female characters fall into these tropes (like the femme fatale, the 'cool girl', the manic pixie dream girl, etc) but it only becomes noticeable when she's only there to serve the male character's development and not there for her own. If the character has her own arc, then really, her "type" doesn't matter the same way Luke being the naive farmboy type or Han being the scoundrel aren't the only important things about them.
Really, the sad fact about Bria is she would have been a great character without Han but gets now defined as Han's crazy ex.
While I read and enjoyed the books....looking back it seems to me like it was an attempt to account for every single second of Han Solo's life while working all the already known details into it.
It was, really, but I think it did a decent enough job despite stretch marks.
So I just finished the trilogy for the first time. Didn't want to hijack the thread about Bria Tharen and the Solo trailer.
get in here and chat with me, I know you read this for the first time relatively recently, like me.
First things first. I enjoyed reading this trilogy, I really did. It was a breeze to read, one fun little adventure after another, with lots of cool/dirty fringe elements, some decent action, some good Han quirks (though maybe a few too many), some sweet ship gearhead stuff that I like, tons of world building and references to alien species and their habits and all the in-universe stuff, it would make for quite a few Wookieepedia links. It's like a mix of Daley's adventures and Luceno's continuity references. I enjoyed it. 8/10 overall? Sure.
I think Paradise Snare is by far the best of them. Han's Oliver Twist background works surprisingly well.
The flashbacks to him as a starving little orphan not knowing wtf is going on are really vivid, pretty well written, though of course they feature one of Crispin's major flaws as a writer as an actual feature of the narrative. SLAM! That's what happens in Han's mind every time little Han tries to remember his mother. It's also the sound of the sledgehammer Crispin uses to make her points. For example, after Dewlanna dies, Han basically promises her/himself (in his thoughts) that if he ever runs into a Wookiee named Chewbacca in the future, that he'd be sure to help him to pay Dewlanna back. And before she dies, Dewlanna tells him about something Han translates into the "life-power", but he thinks power might actually be "strength" or "force". I mean, come ******* on. Oh hell, here's part of it.
I mean, Jesus. This is the first damn chapter. Yeah, thanks for setting that up for us, Crispin. Han swears he'll save Chewie when he meets him.
His relationship with Dewlanna is actually quite touching, but this kind of thing is just annoying and it's kinda giveth and taketh away.
This really doesn't need to happen. Han doesn't need to swear to help a Wookie, he can just do it, because deep down he's a decent person who just can't stand to watch slavery. You can keep Dewlanna in his background, that's fine, but cut out the sworn promise. Just leave it unsaid.
More later. Hope you guys don't mind double posts. Someone post for me so I can post again. Let's get a rodeo going.