Lit Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn what do people think of them ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I think Mara was not only a darksider in TTT, she was in just about every other appearance I've seen her in but for some reason everyone misses it.

    TTT, HoT, JAT/I, Jedi, most of the NJO, the DNT, etc, she's a darksider in all of it.

    Doesn't anybody notice this? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 31, 2012
  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    As should be evident from this thread, quite a few people don't buy Zahn's sophistry that she never in the dark side. Post-HoT, however, I'd say she did resist the dark side.
    Arawn_Fenn likes this.
  3. LandoThe CapeCalrissian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 3
    I cant wait to read these books. Im just waiting to read some of the others that came before this, I, Jedi, Corellian Trilogy and Black Fleet Crisis...
  4. JediMara77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2004
    star 4
    She wasn't on the dark side.

    I don't understand why people are surprised that an author wants to make one of his main protagonists to be good. Of course Zahn is going to "absolve" Mara - she's the (a) hero!

    And bedsides, I don't think he absolves her of anything. 15 years is a long time, and she definitely changes from TTT to HoT. Also, then there's Survivor's Quest, where Mara has tons of guilt.

    But this argument is an old one, and everyone is set in their arguments by now.
  5. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    yep. It was concluded that Mara did not truly fall to the dark side. She was simply serving someone else, and tried when she could to avoid killing.
  6. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Absolving her, undercuts Mara's whole journey and her "becoming" the hero.

    It is in relevant to HoT since it's specifically said that Mara along with Thrawn and Vader were Palpatine's three main people. Zahn cannot have it both ways, she cannot be a trusted assistant to the most evil man in the galaxy and not have used the darkside.
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 1, 2013
  7. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    She was an Assasin for the most evil man in the galaxy, and uses his power, while it's fine if she thinks she is doing good, that is different than being told that she is doing good.
  8. Reaper63 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 4
    I double checked, and it seems I have my source wrong. the info I posted came from Callista Ming's Wookiepedia entry. I just got the ERC for Christmas and I was checking things against the Wookie. I mixed the two up when I posted.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Callista_Ming
    If you scroll down to behind the scenes section, that's where I got it from. This could make the info questionable, but I still think it's pretty accurate.

    As for bring too much alike to work in Fiction, I think we have too much of Opposites attracting each other. Han and Leia, Corran and Mirrax, and as it turned out, Luke and Mara. I think the Issue of being able to use the Force would be a big enough issue for the couple to add in that relationship conflict that would make things interesting. I mean, if Callista was with Luke going into the Chiss redoubt in Survivor's Quest, there would be a WHOLE lot of Callista feeling useless, but having been there when the mission launched, and possibly knowing the Republic people she could have added alot more.
  9. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Ok, thanks. I thought it was be being blind LOL Wouldn't be first time, you see :p

    I agree Callista would have been a great add to that plot point (actually she's in a very goof fanfic that AU's Survivor's Quest ;)) - but otherwise, not so much. I think she and Luke would have been just too neat together. As for opposites, I agree they're very much the standard in fiction and very often a cliche. Just in Luke & Mara's case I think it works out so well - but then that's just my opinion. Full respect for yours :)
    Reaper63 likes this.
  10. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Luke pointed out that "while some of the things you did were certainly wrong, the fact that you weren't doing them for yourself, meant they didn't open you to the Dark Side".

    That said, some of the other books (notably, I, Jedi) do suggest she was actually using "dark emotions" to fuel her powers back then.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 2, 2013
  11. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    What an incredible load of nonsense.

    First, everything you do, you do for yourself.

    Second, Darth Maul's assassinations didn't open him to the dark side? He was doing them for Sidious, wasn't he? Apply the same thing to all the other dark side apprentices over the years.
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Maul's real motive for anything he did was "rise to the point where you can overthrow the Master and become the new Master"

    Same applies to most of the others.

    Mara, however, wasn't like that- she was a genuine altruist.
    kataja likes this.
  13. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Which is why she was *****ing about losing her social status when Palpatine died?

    Even assuming she wasn't doing it for herself (which imo is literally impossible), the conclusion that serving others cannot open you to the dark side is nonsense.
    Darth_Pevra and fett 4 like this.
  14. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    You forgot the 2nd part of the quote "but because you weren't doing them for your own purposes the acts themselves didn't open you up to the darkside"

    Thats not just ment to be POV either as confirmed by Zahn himself. It also one of the dumbest ways to wanting it both ways.

    As for IJedi well (it was tepid anyway) that was written by Stackpole beforehand Vision so unless it's written by Zahn it won't count, as things he doesn't like get retconned.
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's also supposed to be one of the major credos of the Jedi:

    "Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy".

    Stackpole and Zahn consistantly check with each other about portrayals of each other's characters- so it's quite probable that Zahn was OK with that reference.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 2, 2013
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  16. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    A charachter being an altruist is one thing even when they are not. An author twisting himself in knots when it clearly makes no sense, to try and shoe-horn that scenario is something else.
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "On the dark side" in Zahn's terminology might mean "completely fallen"- Anakin did evil things in AoTC, but he wasn't "on the dark side" until after he killed Mace.
  18. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    There is no such thing as selflessness imo.

    That aside, when Mara was serving Palpatine, it was ruling over them, and it wasn't for the good of the galaxy.

    That Jedi credo doesn't prove or even state that serving others cannot open you to the dark side.

    You're changing the subject. The quote said "open you to the dark side", no?

    Surely slaughtering Tusken Raiders in anger opened Anakin to the dark side, no?
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 2, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Lucas would disagree. In fact, in the RoTS novel Qui-Gon explains that the way to become a Force Ghost is through perfect selflessness.
  20. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
  21. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Why? If a major conceit of the SW universe is that "selflessness exists" why throw it aside?
  22. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I'm not throwing it aside, I'm agreeing that is true for the sake of an argument about the Star Wars universe, even though I don't agree with it.

    I'm even willing to assume that she was altruistic, even though I disagree, because of her whining about not being able to go to Imperial parties anymore.

    There's still the fact of her serving evil and dominating/ruling over others, which certainly wasn't for the good of the galaxy.

    This line:

    Is complete and utter nonsense.
  23. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    Yes - then again, that was never the conclusion. The conclusion was that serving others might save you from the dark side.

    I wouldn't say that... [face_thinking] There are many things that annoy me but Mara DS or not isn't one of them, simply because it doesn't really matter IMO. To put it up a bit clumsily : doing bad beeds is bad - doing bad deeds because you think its the right thing is appeasing (is that the right word?). Being a dark sider is ... bad? I suppose - but if you're just sitting fueling your DS ego in a sofa and never do bad deeds - then how bad can it be? And is being DS while you do bad things becasue you think its right (and you honestly had no chance to know better!!!) - is that really worse than doing bad deeds beacuse you thnk its right without being DS? :confused:

    Besides - isn't there grades - even when you talk the DS? I mean, one thing is, say, Jacen Solo who turns bad as grow up - another thing is Mara who's been kept in the dark since she was a toddler. It's more interesting that Mara's been kept int he dark- Walked in t he dark, is actually what Saba Sebatyne says at her funeral - I liked that! Where exactly line goes when you're an DS'r, I have neither idea or that much interest in. The interesting thing is the path from dark to light.
  24. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    She personally, isn't ruling over anyone.

    And, at least from her perspective, her killing of corrupt Imperials, on Palpatine's orders, is for the good of the galaxy's inhabitants.

    Going by Allegiance- she's unaware, at least consciously, that Palpatine is evil.
  25. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Serving the dark side, whether you know it or not, leads to the dark side.

    Ignorance leads to the dark side.

    The idea that Mara wasn't using the dark side is ludicrous beyond belief.

    Again, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, because Mara was a darksider even into the NJO. She had major anger problems, she was hyper aggressive (did this ever change?), she was quick to kill and killed in anger, she was totally domineering and at times let her fear take over, she has a permanent scowl on her face, she constantly responds to people with sharp, harsh comments, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. How is this person not a darksider? She's like some combination of Anakin Skywalker and Jorus C'baoth. This stuff is celebrated by fans, that's probably why they're ignorant of it, because they like it.

    I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS
    TKT likes this.