Lit Hand of Thrawn Duology by Timothy Zahn what do people think of them ?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by fett 4, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Think of Mara as like Kyle- she could use the Dark Side, without it taking her over and turning her into a villain.

    "A darksider" is something a bit different from Mara, or Kyle, or the Jensaarai- crueler, more selfish.

    Source?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 2, 2013
  2. CaptainPeabody Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2008
    star 2
    I'm not sure what the problem is, exactly. Being evil does not equal falling to the Dark Side. Mara was an amoral, mass-murdering assassin, but that doesn't mean she had to be drawing on the Dark Side of the Force to be that. There are plenty of evil characters in the Galaxy who do just fine without the Dark Side.

    The point of the Luke quote is just that Mara was never any more than a tool. She was never anything even close to a Sith apprentice, or a regular Jedi, or even a youngling. She seems to have been taught nothing but the most basic the-Force-is-a-flashlight techniques, with absolutely no philosophy, theology, moral doctrine, or even the most basic Sith dictums to go along with them. Really, she was little more than a spec-ops agent with a slightly better toolbox: a completely brainwashed, indoctrinated spec-ops agent who apparently loved the Emperor as some kind of twisted father figure and believed what she was doing was just wonderful. Now that certainly makes her one royally screwed up character, and also a not very good person--but it doesn't make her a Sith or even a Dark Jedi.

    In short, being an amoral tool with some rudimentary Force abilities doesn't automatically make Dark Side energy start flowing through you, your eyes turn yellow, and lightning shoot out of your palms. That's really all Luke's quote has to be taken to be saying.
    Last edited by CaptainPeabody, Jan 2, 2013
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  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Return of the Jedi, Dark Empire, the post NJO comments on Vergere's teachings. Take your pick.

    You can't serve the dark side without being corrupted by it, that's Star Wars.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 2, 2013
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Specifics? Which characters in Return of the Jedi "served the Dark Side unknowingly" and thus became dark? Or Dark Empire for that matter?

    Zahn isn't the only writer to have "non-dark Force using servants of villains"- Stackpole's Jensaarai in I, Jedi were similar.

    "Serving a villain" is not the same thing as "serving the Dark Side".
  5. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Lucas also says that Vader when he turns doesn't think of himself as evil and that he felt he was protecting the republic.

    Again no one is saying she cannot be selfless or thinking she is doing selfless actions, while she is serving as monster, Its the author wanting it both ways. Both in Allegiance (god I hate that book) and Choices her abilities are pretty impressive for an 18 year old so she has to be getting them enhanced from the Emperor. Yet she does not use the Dark Side ?
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    That's fine perfectly fine and Palpatine manipulating her is credible.

    What's not fine is the author stating she was always on good and never did a bad thing while working for the Empire.
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 2, 2013
  7. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Yes but she wasnt sitting on the sofa she was a trained assassin, and considered one Palpatines top 3 people vyingfor 1st place with Thrawn (as Vaders stuck in 3RD) even if she was only going after "bad people"
    Last edited by fett 4, Jan 2, 2013
  8. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Luke Skywalker. It was only temporary, but that's because he realized he was serving the dark side. Is there any doubt that finishing off Vader would have sealed it? He only came back from the dark side in Dark Empire because Leia did for him what he did for Vader.

    Then we have the Vergere's teachings in the NJO and what happened to Jacen.

    Mara was in it deep for over a decade.

    I disagree that the Jensaarai were "non-dark Force" in I, Jedi.

    If you can use the Force, it does in Star Wars. How can anyone serve Palpatine and not serve the dark side? It's ludicrous.

    Even non-Force sensitives, like the Old Republic Senate, were unknowingly serving the dark side, and they were totally corrupted by it. "Good" Senators like Padme and Bail realized this and turned away from it.

    Even the Jedi in the PT are portrayed to be serving the dark side unwittingly, which was why they were becoming more and more flawed, which led to their downfall and mass destruction in the galaxy.


    The answer is "Mara is so special she can break the rules, that's how."

    Yes, it does.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Jan 2, 2013
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  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Source? In Hand of Thrawn and Survivor's Quest it's acknowledged that some of the things Mara did qualified as "bad things" - was there an interview in SW Insider that retconned this?

    Fate of the Jedi seemed to be suggesting that Jacen's fall had less to do with "Vergere's teachings" and more to do with his obsession with changing a perceived bad future.

    According to Leland Chee, Luke didn't actually "fall to the Dark Side" in Dark Empire at all.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 2, 2013
  10. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 4
    i do think that Mara was opening herself up to the dark side when she went after Jacen. This is why attachments are bad for jedi. Yoda was right to some degree. But i think Yoda took it too far. That said he did care about the jedi order, and had great fondess for Obi Wan and some others.
  11. Pearlsaber Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2013
    star 4
    I feel like resurrecting this thread just because I am excited enough about Specter. I just made it through the New Rebellion and the Corellian Trilogy.

    It is BEYOND refreshing to have Zahn's prose back. The other authors were not awful, but Zahn's story is much more fluid and easier to read.

    I haven't made it through Specter yet, but I am enjoying the ride! [face_dancing]
  12. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    There enjoyable and they finished off the Bantam run well enough, but bewarned they are Zahn's book version of RTJ.
    Last edited by fett 4, Mar 4, 2013
  13. TigerCraneFist Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 4
    And what's wrong with RotJ? ;)
    I reread THoT duology the other week, and I must say they are among the best SW books I've read. Sure, there are a lot of flaws - most of them mentioned earlier in this thread - but all in all the books are very enjoyable.
    I love the character of Thrawn, and rereading TTT and THoT made me go out and by Outbound Flight (a story I was interested in reading more about as far back as in the mid-nineties when I first read TTT). I've read about 100 pages now, and I'm loving the Car'Das/Thrawn parts. The C'Baoth parts not so much. I think it was a poor choice of Zahn's to have the original Jorus (with one 'u') basically be a dark sider (I mean come on - and right in the middle of the PT era too? And interacting with Obi-Wan and Anakin?) - it makes him too similar to his crazy clone. I would have liked it if Jorus C'Baoth was presented as a noble, altruistic Jedi - a sort of Qui-Gon Jinn character, giving us a clear distinction between the PT era character and the TTT character. Anyway, that's off-topic.

    Again, I really like The Hand of Thrawn, those books gave us the Chiss - maybe the coolest species of the SW universe - and I'm looking forward to reading Survivor's Quest after I'm finished with Outbound Flight.
    Don't think I will bother with Zahn's other books though.
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  14. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Survivors Quest is definitely a great one to read, though I would have read it before Outbound Flight...
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    His promoting himself to Jedi Master, and his being something of an attention-seeker, come straight from TTT (Dark Force Rising) though.
  16. Manisphere Force Ghost

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    Aug 25, 2007
    star 5
    Last edited by Manisphere, Mar 23, 2013
  17. Danzo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 2012
    star 1
    Awesome :D Since they did TTT I've been hoping they'd follow it up with doing some others. Hopefully once HoT is done they'll get some of the NJO, still waiting on an unabridged Star by Star!
  18. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    With the release of The Jedi Path and The Book of Sith, I think that the EU post YJK should have been a mixture of adventures in the Unknown Regions like Survivor's Quest and adventures with other Force traditions along the lines of some of Luke's and Ben's encounters with these traditions during the FOTJ series.
  19. Force Smuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yeah and push the YV war back. Maybe have the YV be in the background and push the UR enemy to conquer the galaxy or something.