Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix [Spoilers Allowed]

Discussion in 'Star Wars And Film Music' started by General_Quenobi, Mar 18, 2006.

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  1. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    I think you're jumping the gun and not giving Hooper any credit at all. First of all, he is on the project at the request of director David Yates. Yates and Hooper have worked together many times. Secondly, Hooper has been nominated for 3 BAFTAs, winning one, for his various televtision scores. Just because he's not a mainstream composer does not make him a terrible composer. This is his big chance to make it into that mainstream crowd -- he most likely won't take that lightly and will put a lot of effort into this.

    I think everyone needs to stop being so negative and give the guy a chance.
  2. Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2000
    star 8
    No offense? But Yates doesn't exactly have an impressive track record either. Unless they do something spectacular to impress me, I'm going to have my doubts about them both. [face_peace]
  3. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Well in all honestly Mike Newell was in the same boat as director and he did a wonderful job with Goblet of Fire. So I am willing to give these people a chance.
  4. Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2000
    star 8
    Don't get me wrong; I'm still going to see it. :p I just have thing thing that if I fear the worst, I'll enjoy it more. (If it doesn't bomb, like Doom. ;) )
  5. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    Not to be rude or anything, but have you actually seen any of his TV movies or are you just making an assumption?

    Personally, I've never seen any of them, but I've talked with and read from many people that have seen them and they are pretty much of the consensus that he is quite talented.
  6. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    So was the guy who directed Star Trek Generations. He'd done great TV shows. But not film. And we wound up with a film that looked and felt like a big TV show. It doesn't work that well as a film. I don't want to see that happen to Harry Potter.
  7. AL_Patterson Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2007
    star 2
  8. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    Not exacly music related, but I thought I would point out that you can view the international trailer here.

    It looks quite good, but the guys who edit trailers are so good, it's impossible to tell.

    I will say that I despise the trailer music though. It's so generic. It could easily fit into any other blockbuster movie trailer. Why couldn't they use music from the previous Potter films?
  9. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yeah the music is terrible. But the trailer is quite good. The film looks to be awesome. I really hope it is. They've taken a lot of risks with this one, IMHO.
  10. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    The new issue of Film Music Weekly has an article/interview with Nicholas Hooper and Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. Pretty interesting; you should check it out.
  11. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Yeah it looks like they will make the same mistake as Doyle and only use Hedwig's theme... and that only a few times. Lame.
  12. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I don't think themes from an original film are effective in sequels when they're constantly shoved in your face. Makes them feel like retreads. Conserving Hedwig's theme is the key to making it pay off; at least, it was for GoF. Except that that score sucked. If Hooper has actually written good original material, then I'm excited. I've already preordered the soundtrack.

    The taiko drum and "electronic elements" sound promising.
  13. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    No my point is that he should use more than just Hedwig's theme. There are a few other themes from Williams' scores that should return in the later films, even if he does not use the score. Sorry but the Window To The Past theme should have been used when Harry's parents appear to him in the climax of GOF. Hedwig's theme was used a decent number of times in GOF, but a few other themes should have come out. Oh and of course Doyle's new themes should have actually been great and not mediocre.
  14. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    I have to agree. I don't think we need to be hit over the head with the old themes, but it seems ridiculous to introduce new themes for characters and situations only to never have them show up again. As you said Strilo, to not use the theme for Harry and his parents/Sirius in GoF was a huge musical mistake. I can't even begin to think how powerful that would have been. If I'm not mistaken, the theme that Doyle used there is considered as Harry's love theme that we hear earlier in the film when he was around Cho. I suppose that makes sense as love for his paretns, but...

    The themes I would like to see show up in OotP include: Hedwig's Theme, Harry and his parents/Sirius, and Doyle's love theme for Harry (although with a bit more variation than we heard in GoF).
  15. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I've written scores for a lot of Star Wars videogame projects (custom mods, scenarios), and the more I do it, the less I want to include the Force theme, the Imperial March, etc. Adapting another's material is a fine starting point, but the more you discover your own talents, the less desirable it becomes. Take Nicholas Hooper; he's been scoring television films for years and years, and this is his very first chance at a blockbuster score. Do you think he wants to be constrained by having to use Theme A for situations A or C, Theme B for situation B, Theme D in the end credits, and such? A composer cannot write at his best if he is constantly including nods to other music. I make an exception for Hedwig's theme, simply because it defines the film as Harry Potter, period. No other theme written by John Williams (or by Patrick Doyle) is so associated with the series.

    I just realized that this article actually matches the ideas I've had for an OotP score. Sparse use of Hedwig's theme, an annoying Umbridge theme, a mind control theme, electronics... cool.
  16. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I disagree. Williams has established other important themes besides just Hedwig's theme. Doyle should have realized his own limitations as a composer and worked more within the existing thematic structure of the HP films musically. He is clearly not on the level of Williams for writing memorable and well designed themes. Again, I am not talking about using Williams' themes for everything and just not creating any new themes of his own. I am talking about using only the Williams themes that are appropriate for scenes in the film and already exist. You are inheriting a score world from someone else who spent three films developing and evolving the world. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. There were enough possibilities in GOF for Doyle to establish his own themes and his own ideas. He failed. "Harry In Winter" is the only solid theme he wrote and it was pretty boringly orchestrated.

    Now, I am discussing all of this existing GOF stuff because I fear the same thing will happen with this score from Hooper. Maybe I will be proven wrong and his work will be phenomenal. We'll see.

    All I know is that for the HBP film, whoever does the score had better use Fawkes' Theme for the scene-which-should-not-be-named that serves as the denouement in HBP. Otherwise someone is a complete idiot.
  17. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    We're not saying that he has to use theme A for every situation involving such and such characters, but to not use it at certain points defeats the purpose of even having a theme in the first place. By retaining 3-4 of the more important themes to be used at important moments, Hooper (or any other composer for that matter) would not necessarily be limited by what they could write. Restrained use of the themes makes them that much more powerful. And I think most people will agree that a variation on theme A will be much more powerful than something completely new.

  18. andy1044 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2006
    star 2
    And don't forget, Hooper could always write themes similar to ones established by John Williams. That way he somewhat maintains his artistic individuality while still tying OOTP back to the previous movies. I think GOF would have been a much stronger score if Doyle had done some of this.
  19. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    See, I disagree. That theme isn't necessarily the best choice for such a scene. How about hauntingly original music? A reprise of the theme for that character? Whatever. It's a case in which our opinions totally conflict, and there's no real logical argument to make. Hooper will probably be doing HBP with Director Yates, by the way, so let's hope OotP is a good one.

    The Potter films have been handled by four different directors, two Dumbledores, two or three different set designs, three composers, etc., etc. I believe that each should be able to boast some identity. And what's wrong with ditching everything but Hedwig's theme? Williams did that for PoA, and it was a great score. At least, I haven't heard anyone complain about it.

    Although, to be honest, a little Nimbus 2000 would be nice.
  20. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    I've been listening to Goblet of Fire and thinking that it's actually pretty good if certain creative decisions are accepted. Obviously, abandoning Williams's themes is one of those, but another that I'm starting to grasp is Doyle's brassy, pompous approach to scoring. "Hogwarts Hymn," though not exactly new ground for Doyle, isn't necessarily bad. What I found bothered me was its excessively proud portrayal of Hogwarts. But is Williams's "Hogwarts Forever!" really any different? The latter simply boasts more whimsicality and child-like heroism. I believe the weakness of Doyle's score is his themes and their simplicity and lack of memorability. There is lots of interesting material in the underscore, however. Above all, this score is very certain. The conviction of the composer is evident. Doyle can throw almost the exact same orchestration at us for three minutes of "Harry in Winter" and get away with it. You can't not like the music because it takes a sledgehammer to your musical tastes and won't give up until you submit.

    Adding unreleased music like "Owl Post" and the end credits helps with the Williams connection.

    I just listened to the end of "Voldemort" and almost shivered. "Harry in Winter" has a dull melody, but it can be orchestrated beautifully.

    Anybody listening with iTunes and using the Sound Enhancer option? It seems to bring out the subtleties of GoF really well.
  21. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Haha, triple post, sorry.

    The first clip of the score is up at the official site. There's Hedwig's theme, there's more. This is going to be great.
  22. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    Hmmm... that really did not impress me. It was an OK rendition and take on Hedwig's theme, but what the hell was that horrible piano meandering at the end? My hope is that it's the start of something that goes somewhere. I'm not going to pass judgement on the whole score based on that obviously, but I certainly hope for more.
  23. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Is it "horrible," or are you just unaccustomed to a piano in Potter?
  24. Darth_Vader-Anakin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2002
    star 3
    Probably some of both. It sounds to me like somthing is "off", almost like there's a flubbed note the second time the piano notes repeat (I know very little about music so I don't know the techincal term here). It might turn into something great, it's just that it didn't do anything for me the way it was used on the site.
  25. Cerrabore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, I thought there was a tempo flub the first time I heard it, but it's just a syncopated rhythm. Listen to it again and it will sound fine.

    I think that section perfectly establishes the dark, brooding mood of the first chapter.
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