Clone Wars Has Clone Wars Jumped the Karkarodon?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Master_Fwiffo, Sep 23, 2011.

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  1. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    I debated putting this post in the episode thread, but I realized it transcends just that episode, and is more of a critique of the series as a whole.

    And the premise of this scholarly work is: I'm fairly sure that Clone Wars has jumped the, err, Karkarodon

    There are a number of telling signs, and I'm using the most recent episode, "Prisoners" as the discussion point because I feel it exemplifies the problems with this series (and it's hilarious appropriate given the species of the villain). I'll spoiler the spoiler-bits.

    1) It's retelling stories from the original Clone Wars series, but not nearly as effectively. Which considering those were only 7 minutes long...
    2)The stories are getting dumber. Prince Whiny Fishhead had the dumbest plan ever that only worked because because the Bad Guys have gone from mostly evil to I KICK PUPPIES BWHAHAHAHAHAAH evil.
    3) in an attempt to compensate, they've ramped up the violence considerably and gratuitously. I mean, exploding grenade knives? Decaptiations? Torture? Slaves? There's this thing called 'Grimdark', and it's very appropriate here.
    4) Jar Jar saved the day by spitting on Padme. Read that again to yourself.
    5) And if that wasn't bad enough, MORE JAR JAR NEXT WEEK. OH FRIKKEN YAY.
    6) Random OT Cameos that detract rather than enhance (Like Ackbar)
    7) More and More 3-Parters as opposed to single-episode stories (See last seasons especially egregious last episodes)
    8) This isn't a big deal for me personally, but apparently they're screwing up canon something terrible too.

    Now, if this was just this one episode, I might be inclined to let it go. But the truth is, I've been seeing some or all of these kinds of things since midway through LAST season. By the end of it, we'd had a Darth Maul clone (and maybe Darth Maul brought back to life), something like 4 3-parters in a row (as they apparently forgot how to tell single episode stories), a lot of the grimdark combat (WE TOTALLY KILLED ZIRO!), a needless appearances by Grand Admiral Tarkin, Greedo and Chewbacca (and Darth Maul, and echoed with Admiral Akbars appearance this season), and that entire mess on the Force-Planet. In short, Clone Wars is now throwing every single thing it can and praying something will stick. It's out of stories. It's jumped the Karkarodon.

    I'm fairly sure Clone Wars jumped with that Personified Force 3-Parter last season. After that, there was no turning back. Well, that or the Darth Maul Clone. Whichever came first.

    I'll still watch like the loyal starwars fanboy whore I am, but this series is on its last legs.
    Abadacus likes this.
  2. JediMasterEllic_Kier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 3
    That's your opinion.

    Mine is that the series is getting better, the animation better, the stories are getting better, and I don't give a rip what "canon" they mess up.
    GL is involved, this supersedes everything else but the movies. (I know about the Senator. But I frankly don't care. It's a minor, minor character)
    I like multiple episode arcs as it seems they try to do too much in one episode. The 3 episode arcs have been the best of the whole series (for the most part.)

    I'm sorry, but if you didn't like the episodes with the Brother, Sister and Father I don't know what you are watching for. That was some of the best we've had.
    Also, we don't know yet what Darth Maul is. You're jumping to conclusions. Tarkin was fine. It's nice to see him and Anakin start a relationship. Greedo, who cares, it gives a better connect then just some random green alien. If they just kept creating Bounty Hunters then people would complain that there are too many. They can't win so they do what they want and you can either deal with it of not.

    Using the term "Jumping the anything" is itself now a jumping the thing. I'm so tired of people bringing out this term. It's tired.

    So now we have two opinions.


    BTW, the episode tonight saved the arc for me. I didn't really care that much about the first two, they were alright. But tonight was a better episode.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  3. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I've enjoyed these opening episodes, and everyone knows I hate everything all the time, even these opening episodes which I just said I liked, I really hate them.

    I LOVE that it's grimdark, gimme more.

    And you know what, for the first time ever Jar Jar isn't freaking unbearable. Someone's using their noggin when it comes to Jar Jar in these episodes.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  4. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 5
    The stories are getting more "out there," but I'd attribute that more to Lucas' "wouldn't it be fun if we did _______" attitude that TCW as a whole has been from the start. I see no evidence that the show is on its last legs, and I for one loved the Mortis trilogy, loved last seasons finale, and by and large liked the concept behind this opening season 4 trilogy, but did not like the execution. I agree that a lot of these arcs (like the Citadel and Mon Cala arcs) could stand to be 1-2 episode stories IMO. But 22 minutes isn't a whole lot of time to tell a story, and if they want an "epic" story, they'll have to turn to multi-episode arcs.

    The problem is, if they screw up in the first episode, as they did with Lee-Char (I personally just despised the character), then I'm not going to care at all about what happens to him or care about the story. As a result, I've spent the past two weeks just waiting for this arc to end so that they would move onto some other story.
  5. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    Well yes, that's the point of a discussion, right?

    As I made clear, I disagree. I will give you that the animation is getting better (it's a darn pretty series), and as I mentioned, the Canon changes aren't bothersome to me as I'm not caught up on extended Prequel-Era canon anyway (though I can see why they would be for some people). But I disagree fundamentally on the 3 episode arcs, and I feel, actually, that they tend to be the weakest of the whole series. The problem really is (and this is evident for a lot of the series), that they're having troubles keeping the stories contained into half-hour slots. I don't fault them for trying to be epic, but IMO, the most enjoyable episodes tend to be the one-shot stories. That's not to say all the arcs are bad - far from it, I really enjoyed the Mandalore arc from S2 for example - but there comes a point where they are just putting in too many of these arcs, and not giving us a chance for the simple, smaller stories (like, say Rookies from Season 1, which still remains one of the top episodes of the entire series). If you go back to midway through season 3, literally every single episode from then until next week has been part of a 3-story arc. At that point, you think it'd be a good idea to step back and say 'you know, maybe we are over doing it here'.

    Oh come on now, I put some good work into that pun!

    Yes, well, that's the point of a discussion, right?
  6. JediMasterEllic_Kier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 3
    Also, I personally thought Jar Jar spitting on Padme's helmet was hilarious, and well thought out. Let's not take things so seriously that we can't laugh sometimes.
  7. JediMasterEllic_Kier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 3


    Alright, I'll give you that one. It was good.

    Sorry, I was just reading the Blu Ray whining thread and had a bad taste in my mouth. I think I took it out on you.

    As long as they break up the multi-episode arcs with a few one episode...uh...episodes I'm good.

    Just no poison Gatorade, that's all.
  8. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    There's dark, and then there's ridiculously grimdark. I made fun of it in my OP, but killing Ziro and the Watto-King Guy wasn't ridiculously Grimdark. But exploding grenade knives and the bad guys gutted head? That's becoming 'violent for the sake of being violent'. It's really a cheap tactic to try and make the show look more mature, so little kids and go 'WOW HE BLEW OFF THAT GUYS HEAD AWESSOOME'. It's like Michael Bay Movie Logic (not that there's anything wrong with that!).

    Now this I just can't accept. I didn't even terribly hate Jar Jar in Episode 1 - he was for the kids, I got that, and I've seen far worse. Sticking him in the Clone Wars cartoon wasn't terrible either - I appreciate that they acknowledge the character and are trying to do something useful with him.

    But seriously. Jar Jar saved the Day by Spitting On Padme. Just read that again to yourself. Mull over it for a minute. And if you don't recoil in horror, well, I don't know what's wrong with you. :p
  9. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    No offense taken. :)

    Though the added 'NOOOOOOO' is pretty terrible. [face_mischief]

  10. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I grew up on 80s action movies, so if less than 1400 people get shot in the face I'm unfulfilled.

    My first reaction to Jar Jar's spit was "stupid", but at least he didn't save the day by juggling something, falling down or crashing.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  11. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    Can we just have a blanket policy automatically banning these types of threads? It seems like at least once a month we get some variation on the "TCW is now officially irretrievably bad because of __________" thread theme, and they almost always wind up locked for good reason anyway.

    CT's dead right about Jar Jar.
  12. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    Jumping the Karkarodon does not mean 'irretrievably bad'. It means its best days are behind it. While it still might have some good episodes on occasion, the series will slowly begin to degrade from the Jump Point.

    I'm still going to watch it. I'll still buy the DVDs. But I can't kid myself: The Shine is Gone.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  13. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    It was nice that they explained it was part of their underwater adaptation, keeping their respiratory tract watertight.

    All I know is that for the first time ever (including the PT and previous TCW appearances), I don't hate every second Jar Jar is on screen.
  14. JediMasterEllic_Kier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2002
    star 3
    First No ok....second pushing it, but it's fine. I have 8 versions of these movies so I can always watch the one I want.


    The boards are just in a very complainy mode right now. The last time it got this negative I took like a 3 year break.
    Might be time again.

    I love Star Wars, warts and all. I just don't see the reason to get angry. Just laugh and accept. Like Jar Jar's globular spittle.
  15. Seerow Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2011
    star 6
    From my point of view TCW has not jumped the shark at all and I've seen many of my favorite works of fiction jump the shark at some point. For me TCW is fun to watch. I enjoy more episodes than I hate from all 3 previous seasons. I really enjoyed "Prisoners". I don't know if its because I like campy stuff or because I had a really crappy last few days at work that may end with me in the unemployment line on Monday. None the less when I got home and started up TCW for 22 minutes all those worries went away. It was just fun, mind numbing, escapist bliss. In the end that's what I want from a good TV show. To help me escape reality. Archer which I think is the funniest TV show on cable didn't do much for me Thursday night. Serious TV shows, reality shows, and comedy don't do it for me. But TCW does and that's worth a lot in my book.
  16. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
    Answer to question in the name of this thread- YES

    there is still hope but looks like it is happened- they really need to redeem this show with something or this goes towards disaster..... or is this already there? This arc on Dac was just so lame can they really top this?- I gave better scores to Mortis in fact Dac-arc is bad- upcoming arc looks even worse- TCW is steadily losing all my respect- come on can you do anything right anymore? Looks like they cannot- i really feel bad watching the show with so much promise but with so poorly made plots- animation is getting better while plots are getting worse......

    In fact Star Wars has jumped the shark IMO - entire franchise with blu-rays and other crap:oops:
  17. rumblewagon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    I started to read this post, but then I realized all it said was "yak yak yak yak yak yak" over and over. And then I realized that you, Master_Fwiffo, had not posted on these forums in over a year. So you must be some alt of someone who just likes to repeat the same old tired line that TCW is done and finished; when in fact it's gotten better than ever.
  18. GGrievous Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Rumble: http://boards.theforce.net/live_action_clone_wars_classics/b10467/31912567/p1/?72
    See what Garth has to say about the no personal attacks. ;)
  19. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    I'll admit that for the past year or so the episodes have been either really out-there (In a bad way) or really bland. But even though the season premiere of S4 wasn't perfect it was a major step in the right direction, and even though the finale of the premiere arc was pretty weak IMO I still have hope. For some reason the TCW crew felt the need to tell some strange, strange stories in S3 and it seems that they're spilling at least a little bit into Season 4. But I believe that is going to end soon and we'll get back to quality quickly. I mean look at what's coming up: Umbara, Nightsisters, Death Watch and more!

    I'll admit that I was as negative about S3 and last night's episode as anyone but I really believe the best is yet to come. Now that they've hopefully gotten the poisoned tea and Jar Jar mucus out of their systems the TCW crew should be able to get back on track. :)
  20. InterestingLurker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2011
    star 4
    I disagree with the point about puppy-killing bad guys. The Quarens were sympathetic and you need a card-carrying villain once in a while like Riff Tamson. Those are generally the coolest villains.
  21. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 5
    People like myself who just started watching relatively recently, and some who have been watching from the beginning, think that overall the show is improving and continuing to improve. Instead of only complaining about the season opener, perhaps explaining what exactly S1, S2, and S3 did that you liked so much that was lacking here would allow people to build more constructively off your comments.

    Even with that, you're still making a huge assumption by implying, if not directly saying, that the remaining 19 episodes of S4 can't or won't be any better than the first three. Even if someone hated all three episodes, which I was luke-warm on the first two and happier with the conclusion, it's still just the-sky-is-falling, doomsday the-end-is-near, wolf-crying to say that the rest of the season can't or won't improve. None of us know what will happen, and many of us have seen spoilers of things we're still really psyched about.

    There are two areas that really bugged me about early TCW that are almost entirely gone now, but even though I know many others hated these things also, there doesn't seem to be a lot of expressing of relief and joy that they're gone. Of course, I'm talking about droid humor/antics and gratuitously borrowing lines from the films. There was plenty of these things in S1, slightly less in S2, a lot less in S3, and it looks like they're continuing the downward trend because I noticed no examples of them in the first three episodes of S4. To me, that's solid movement in the right direction. Add that in S3 they got more political and more philosophical than ever before, and this season it looks like they're focusing on how the CIS enslaves worlds which I've been waiting for for quite some time, and I'm looking to be one happy camper.
  22. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Did you read the chill out thread? You're heading for a ban with posts like this.


    The problem with "jumping the shark" is that you only really know in hindsight.

    I agree these long arcs are tiresome and could probably be more effective as two-parters.
  23. KeltheDor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2011
    star 1
    I like the direction the Clone Wars is going. Outside of the Blue Shadow Virus episodes and Evil Plans there hasn't been episode that really bothered me in a quite some time. The animation has improved drastically, and it looks like we have some great stuff down the road.

    Just because the first episodes of season four could have been better doesn't mean that the whole show is gonna suck. People these days are so quick to call foul and freak out over silly things. Cynicism is rampant, and to be honest, quite annoying with this generation. As the stickied thread says. Please calm down everyone.
  24. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3
    I take high offense to that. I'm no alt, and I've been here (if somewhat inactive) since Episode II was hitting theaters. Granted I've turned to more of a lurker since Episode III, but I'm nobodies alt.
  25. Master_Fwiffo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2001
    star 3

    All right, fair enough. The first seasons (and this is fresh in my mind as I just finished a retrek through the S1 and S2 DVDs) tended to tell smaller-scale stories, even within the 3-episode arcs. For example, the Ryloth trilogy was three completely seperate stories, with only the conflict on Ryloth being the bridge between them. In this opener, the Force Mess, the Darth Maul Clone and the Prison trilogies, all of those were the same single story stretched out over three episodes. This is not always a strength, because all three of those trilogies felt artificially expanded and unnecessarily long. If you do Epic too much, Epic begins to wear thin.

    Secondly, they're beginning to rely on the OT like a crutch. While I'll give you (as you said below) the repeating of OT lines could be annoying, the inclusion of a LOT of OT characters for no reason is really badly forced - Greedo and Chewbacca were horrendously out of place, and while I don't mind the idea behind having Ackbar and Tarkin show up, most of their screentime just felt like they were going HEY LOOK THESE GUYS WERE FROM THE OT! I'd much rather see the focus on some of the new prequel era characters who have a reason to be around.

    Third, and again as I mentioned, the violence feels likes its being ramped up in an attempt to compensate for the series other shortfallings. Don't get me wrong, I was estactic when Rookies first came on and I realized this series was going to take the idea of a War seriously, but the end of the Mon Cala arc and the prison arc felt like it was just being overtly violent for the sake of being overtly violent, like it's flaunting what it can do as a cartoon because of Lucas's backing.

    So there, several things I felt the first seasons did better.

    I could be wrong of course. If Clone Wars rights itself over the next couple of episodes, no one will be happier than me. But keep in mind, I don't think that the Mon Cala 3-parter was the jump point - the jump point was midway through LAST season, and the Mon Cala arc continued the trend I'd been seeing since Midway Through Last Season. I wouldn't have made this topic if I thought Last Season was completely up to par with the first two seasons - it's the continuing trend I wory about.

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