Clone Wars Has Clone Wars Jumped the Karkarodon?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Master_Fwiffo, Sep 23, 2011.

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  1. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Technically, TCW is to EU what ARC troopers are to regular clone troopers. ;)
  2. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    If anyone says TCW is not EU, then they're technically incorrect.
  3. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Technically, I've been the sexiest man alive for the last 9 years, despite what that silly magazine would have you believe.
  4. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Fair enough.

    Much of C-Canon EU can be considered to take place in an alternate universe, because it is contradicted by a higher T-Canon source and thus cannot reasonably exist in the same universe as the G/T-Canon continuum, of which only non-contradictory C-Canon elements can be a part.

    Is that technically correct? [face_peace]
  5. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    No, then that just shows how stupid TCW is. ;) You're right about T-canon trumping lower canon material, but if anything, TCW can be seen as an AU because of its nonstop incompatibility with established canon.

    C-canon is not perfect either, but since we're discussing TCW, it's far from perfect in terms of continuity.

    Also I'll throw this in here: TCW also excels in contradicting its own canon. :p

    We can discuss more about canon/continuity in the canon thread if you want, QuangoFett.

  6. QuangoFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah, let's take this out of the Riff Tamson appreciation thread... :p

    Though it will have to wait a few hours, unfortunately.
  7. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    You mean Biff Tannen. :p
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  8. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    Maybe it's the fact that it's 1am here but that's not ringing any bells GG.
  9. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Didn't even think of it. :p
  10. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    Never seen any of the Back to the Future films, NotAFanBoy?
  11. Swashbucklingjedi Game Winner

    Game Winner
    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2010
    star 5
  12. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    Yeah I don't see how TCW could be considered EU but I don't care enough about that sort of thing to have a prolonged debate about it. When it comes to that stuff I agree with your sig, Swash.
  13. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Canon, canon, canon...
    Decide for yourself what is and is not canon. Lucas has been doing exactly that since at least December 20, 1978.
  14. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    "General Kenobi! Our canons are being destroyed!" - Captain "American clone" Fordo.
  15. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    Riff was definitely Biff Tannen.
  16. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    As I noted to CT when the Mon Cal arc was coming out, I totally would've gone along with the BTTF Street Shark pulling out the electronic elongating baseball bat. :p Though I believe that technically was Griff Tannen.
  17. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    So I started typing up this wall of text in another thread when I realized it was entirely off-topic, so I'm moving it here. It's not a rant, these are my honest feelings about this series:

    This is based on absolutely nothing but personal experience, but it almost seems like this series only appeals to younger SW fans. Older Star Wars fans (growing up with the OT) seem to universally hate it. I'm a member on several SW forums, and on most of them people are so hating on this series, it's not even funny. There's more or less a consensus that it sucks, to the point where the few people that actually like it or don't hate it as much don't even dare to speak out that they're watching it. Granted, most of the people on these forums are prequel haters too, but still.

    And it's not even a continuity issue either. All the time I'm reading criticisms along the lines of 'that animation series crap is so bad that it makes me ashamed of liking Star Wars'. The worst thing is, I can sort of relate to the sentiment.

    For the better part of the series, the writing has just been bad to mediocre... Honestly I must admit that the reason I started following this series was because I was really missing the days of the prequel releases. The prospect of having weekly SW on television seemed thrilling. I just feel very let down by the stories they're telling. I guess I expected all kinds of meaningful stories about the war, but most of the stuff we've had is totally non-consequential, and just casual entertainment. The saturday morning cartoon style is not helping things either.

    I'm just getting so tired of the format of this series. The Umbara arc was great because the fates of all the characters were uncertain, and the story touched upon a meaningful development (Order 66) in the scope of the saga. I just find myself waiting and wishing for continuation of established plot-lines, which rarely (if ever) happens. And when it finally does happen, there'll be two whole seasons in between. (Death Watch)

    Right now the only thing I'm truly interested in is Ahsoka's development and Rex's. Things like Even Piell giving the coordinates to Ahsoka with the explicit instruction to only give them to the Jedi Council (pinning her in a position between the Jedi and Tarkin/Palpatine) got me all excited, but then I realized that the series will never continue that plot-line. It's just one of those interesting things they manage to throw out, and where it gets really interesting they just stop telling the story. It really pisses me off. Instead we get bull**** episodes like the droid adventures and just generic 'beating up the bad guys' stuff.

    Maybe I should just acknowledge that this series is more for kids than for me (although the Umbara arc proves otherwise), or maybe it's just the simple fact that the Clone Wars era has been completely exhausted (as I have always felt it is), and there's just not so much to tell.

    I just wish they'd done the Live Action series instead. For all I care they just animate it, like this series... as long as they're going to tell a meaningful and continuous storyline and get rid of the simplistic, black and white, good guys vs. bad guys, villain-of-the-week-style self-contained episodes where everything will be fine and dandy by the time the credits roll.


    Mod Edit: Language...
  18. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2011
    star 5
    ^Good read Humble.

    Recently, I just stopped pretending TCW could ever be what I wanted it to be. We're four and a half series in and I've decided that no matter how they dress it up, what's all too clear now is that it's just a Star Wars-themed kids' show, and nothing more. It's not in any way an addition to the EU, much less a valuable addition. The fact that they try and give it undue credibility by sandwiching it right between the movies and the rest of the EU material in the 'official' canon hierarchy does not make me accept it any more. As I've said before, I don't abide by their system, and I certainly do not respect it when they expect us to believe that both the Bane Trilogy and Shadow Warrior come from the same universe. The range of quality across all the material supposedly contained within this single entity just baffles me.

    TCW is what it is. It's aimed at kids, and so it's written for kids. The plots are incredibly contrived, predictable and ham-fisted because that's how kids' shows are written. Becoming a Bronie a few months back was what really brought all of this to my attention. My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is a delightful little show, great fun. Sure, the plots in each episode come off just as simplistic as an average episode of TCW, but at no point while watching did I ever feel the need to raise issue about it. Why? Because it is aimed at young kids. You can't criticise a show with a primary demographic audience that's still in primary school for not having complex plots like you'd expect from shows aimed at older audiences like Dexter or Lost. Trying to apply the same method of critiquing to two completely different shows with completely different formats is an utter waste of time. Would anyone criticise the Teletubbies for not giving the main characters enough character development or for having simple plotlines? It's naivety and futility in their purest forms.

    TCW is no different from Friendship is Magic or any other kids' show in that regard. I was expecting The West Wing from Bob The Builder. Hopefully that sounds about as silly in your head as it does in mine. The fact that they're attempting to conflate the two is just a ploy to sucker in older viewers with false hope.

    So what does this mean for my interest in the show? Not a whole lot of positive, unfortunately. I can't take kids' shows seriously. I just don't care for it any more. Even when they present Umbara as the pinnacle of their achievements, they still fail.
  19. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    The extent to which expectations color our interpretations is not to be underestimated.

    I came into TCW expecting it to be a decent kids' show that at best would hopefully have lots of lightsaber action. When I tried to watch Droids and Ewoks I cared so little for them that I stopped watching after just a few episodes. My fear was that TCW would be as bad as these shows, my best case scenario was that it might be tolerable.

    Going in with such low expectations, each season of TCW has impressed me more and more. S1 was more or less what I expected, although there was more violence than I anticipated which is really all I thought they could do well so I was just happy with that.

    S2 introduced all kinds of stuff that surprised the hell out of me: they began addressing the metaphysics surrounding the clones, they began to use political science and actually used it well (Burtoni saying she'd never murder the Rodian senator because she was always able to use his quotes for her fundraisers was brilliant, I never expected anything that sophisticated from this show in a million years), there were ethical dilemmas addressed regarding the Zillo Beast, and on top of all that they had Holocrons and the Emperor kidnapping babies to experiment on them.

    S3 took all the political and philosophical issues I never expected to be addressed at all in this show and expanded on them, and did it well. The Academy had Ahsoka explaining, in a classroom setting no less, many important fundamental political science concepts that many people never hear. I think it?s especially important for kids to get the message she was sending because many of them won?t otherwise. My personal favorite example was that it?s wrong to assume that all politicians are evil and corrupt, but regardless it?s still important to keep yourself informed on who they are and what they?re doing because it?s YOUR job to make sure YOUR representatives aren?t evil and corrupt. Heroes on Both Sides shows how real politics is never as black-and-white as TCW typically portrays it. And of course Overlords touched on the philosophy surrounding the Force in a more direct way than we?ve ever witnessed on-screen.

    S4 is only about half-way done, and already we?ve gotten more on the metaphysics surrounding the clones than ever before. Of course I?m disappointed we haven?t gotten much in the way of politics yet, but we?ve more or less been guaranteed further philosophical development in the form of whatever ?return to Mortis? we?re supposed to be getting as well as the return of Darth Maul. This is also looking to be the first season to seriously address slavery in the Clone Wars.

    Now let me be perfectly clear. I?m not saying any of this to absolve TCW from any of its poorer aspects exhibited thus far. You both made the point about how high your expectations for TCW were and how you feel let down by it supposedly being nothing more than a kids' show. On the other hand, I never expected anything more than a mediocre kids? show, and because of that when they started implementing political or existential or ethical dilemmas or concepts that I never expected to see on this show in a million years, it has proved to me over time that it?s more than the mediocre kids? show I expected.
  20. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Yes, expectations do affect us a lot.
    I was a little worried about ep 1 when I saw all the trailer stuff that was put out, and my trepidation was well justified.
    Even with expectations lowered by ep 1&2, 3 was worse than I ever imagined. And then there was the other cartoon in the flat 2D flash style that left me wondering why it was being made after the very first micro-episode.
    So, I waited for the DVD of The Clone Wars movie, and with low expectations and only glimpses of the trailer to go by, I had very little hope that it would be anything more than eye-candy, and it turned out to be the best thing since the prequels were announced. (my view--I realize there are people who like the prequels, but I don't want to argue that here--it has already been done to death)
    So I started to look forward to the cartoon.
    And Season 1 was even better than I imagined.
    Season 2 managed to top even that (though there were some goofy eps).
    Based on that, I had very high hopes for season 3.

    And they were dashed. I was staring at the screen wondering how they could have made such a complete hash of the property so quickly.
    "To go from this, to this, as from Hyperion to a Satyr"
    I would argue that the political elements being 'taught' were fairly unrealistic, idealistic, and had such a poor grasp on reality as to be childishly naive. But then so was the whole children detectives setup. Very Scooby Doo. Not at all what had been presented before.
    While sometimes pretty, and sometimes providing some technical innovations, as a whole, season 3 utterly failed to live up to the expectations and standards of the previous 2 seasons. It was a major disappointment.

    If they cannot keep the standard at least in the same range as the first 2 seasons, they should just stop. Better nothing than something like that.
  21. Humble_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 4
    True what Tarkas said about expectations.

    Thing is, I really, really liked season 1. Even back then I was complaining about the format, but there was a lot of diversity to the episodes. IMO season 2 was even better, until suddenly the series turned into Homages-R-Us. Season 3 had some good stuff but was mostly rubbish. And season 4? Well, so far I only really liked the Umbara arc. Shadow Warrior was hilarious, but the story was bogus.

    And despite the fact that I generally love politics just as much as Tarkas does, I agree with Magellan that TCW take on politics is just face-palm-worthy. Heroes on Both Sides was a good episode though.
  22. Darth_Gamek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2009
    star 6
    They should just completely forget about politics. I don't htink the target audience wants that anyway. :p
  23. GGrievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    star 5
    I don't think they even know what their target audience is.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  24. Dark Lord Tarkas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think the principle that you need to be informed on what your politicians are doing with their power rather than assuming they're all crooks and ignoring politics is unrealistic, overly-idealistic; it's the opposite of its childishly naive counterpart. Do you expect mediocre kids' shows to do random campaign finance references, and actually have it make perfect sense? I don't know how craven politics is in other countries, but here in the U.S. of A. you can bet your sweet Aunt Petunia that politicians use their opponents' words in attack ads all - the - time. If that's a childishly naive political science concept, surely you can explain why that is? And just one more example off the top of my head: I think it actually displays an exceptional grasp of reality to show that sometimes people with totally opposite ideas, be they political or otherwise, can be equally well-intentioned and fighting for what they believe in. Do you really disagree with me on that? If so, we just have fundamentally different understandings of politics.

    In the context of the larger conversation, let me clarify that I am not saying this to imply that TCW has always done politics right. From my point of view, that of someone expecting a mediocre kids' show with nothing to do with politics, that is simply an impressive short-list of decently nuanced political concepts done right.
  25. Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2003
    star 4
    Yes. All the Time. And usually out of context, just to make the opponent look even more of a boob. So if this concept is somehow new, then the audience would have to be... under 10? under 12? Too young to have heard of much of anything.
    Considering the relative maturity, sensitivity, and depth of many season 1 and 2 stories, this view of the politics is very childish, heavy-handed, and simplistic.
    "Wow, really? Adults sometimes lie? But they taught us that was a bad thing to do. My poor little head hurts."
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