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Clone Wars Has Clone Wars Jumped the Karkarodon?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Master_Fwiffo, Sep 23, 2011.

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  1. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 11, 2011

    I agree with you with some reservations. I still despise Pursuit Of Peace, though in retrospect this hatred comes from the episode's derailment of a major PT character and presentation of a questionable position as wholly right through her. I'm not one of those people who has a gut aversion to politics in TCW or in real life. The episode's political conflict could have been better presented through some other character, perhaps Bail Organa or Mon Mothma, and it would have been decent.

    I also disagree about The Academy. Granted, it was the better of the two S3 Mando episodes, but I was hoping for something more grand and less mundane, that could genuinely advance the Mandalorian plot. IIRC, you think the S3 Mando duology was important to show the collapse of
  2. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    Your original accusation was that they were untrue. Now you're completely backtracking on that and your new allegation is that they were true but just not complex enough? That's pretty weak. Remember, the specific subject is what we expected of TCW and how that has colored our reception of it. Perhaps if you're expecting wildly complex and original political stories, that only leaves room for crushing disappointment. To me, someone expecting nothing more than a typical kids' show, all these political science references that you seem to now be admitting are realistic are pleasant surprises, since I was expecting no politics at all.

    And if you think everyone about the age of 12 knows these political concepts, allow me to be the first to tell you you could not be more wrong. I started a club at my college to do voter registration drives, and I can't tell you how many people think they're all crooks so they should pay no attention to politics at all or that none of them really believe what they're fighting for and they certainly have no clue how campaign finance works. Maybe you live in Australia where everyone has to vote, I don't know, but here in the U.S.A. the percentage of the voting-age population that votes in presidential elections is about 50% and in congressional (midterm) elections it's about 30%. Care to explain how that meshes with your assertion that everybody above the age of 12 understands the importance of keeping informed and active in politics?

    I said nothing of "adults sometimes lie" as being one of the demonstrated political science concepts, so I'm not going to defend an attack on a straw-man.

    I disagree that S1 and S2 had more "maturity, sensitivity, and depth" than S3, especially if we're talking about politics in TCW. But that's really a whole other conversation. The campaign finance example is from S2.
  3. Magellan_the_Cat

    Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 21, 2003
    We're talking apples & oranges.

    Yes, people are largely ignorant of how political machinery works.
    Yes, most people do not understand.
    Yes, they should pay attention to what politicians do.

    But, the notion that politicians/adults sometimes lie? Yeah, I think most of the people you were talking about understand that all too well. Which is (I suspect) at least partially why they gave up trying to figure out the rules. And even to kiddies in GFFA, that thought should be very clear, just from the conflicting propaganda.

    If you want a good political show, look into the House of Cards trilogy. (not for kids, but an excellent show)
    As for politicians in general, I think Douglas Adams summed it up quite well: Anyone capable of getting themselves elected should under no circumstances be allowed to to the job.

    (I'm in California)
  4. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    Sorry for going from apples to oranges, but you went from politics in TCW has been "fairly unrealistic, idealistic, and had such a poor grasp on reality as to be childishly naive," to, after I gave 3 examples you admitted to be realistic/reality-based, politics in TCW has been "very childish, heavy-handed, and simplistic," so I was kind of forced to go with the flow.

    Again, I never gave "politicians/adults sometimes lie" as an example of political science in TCW. I gave 3 examples which are quoted at the top of this page, and that just wasn't one of them. You said politics in TCW has been _______, and I gave three examples that disproved your blanket statement. You bringing up something else entirely does nothing to validate your original claim since my 3 examples still invalidate it, especially since I stated at the end of my first post on this directed at you that my pointing out the good examples isn't meant to imply that there are no bad examples or that bad examples are excusable.

    This whole discussion was based on how our expectations have affected our reaction to TCW. Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but since you're bringing up another show as a prime example of a political show I'm getting the impression you must have somehow overlooked this: I never expected any politics in TCW, because I assumed it would be a kids' show something along the lines of Droids or Ewoks. So when these political science moments come up and occasionally are done really well, I have an appreciation for it that is enhanced by my expectations. This is not a conversation about what shows on TV do political science the best. If I had gone into watching TCW expecting it to have amazing political science moments all the time, of course I would have seen it in an entirely different light, and not for the better. That's what this whole conversation is about.
  5. Magellan_the_Cat

    Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 21, 2003
    What can I say--to me it felt heavy-handed, childish, and simplistic.
    If you enjoyed it, great.

    Some people actually like the prequel movies.
    Some people actually like mayonnaise.
    Some people actually fit the target demographic of the Transformers movies.
    Some people think the Matrix movies are immensely deep metaphors for the human condition
    I am not in any of those groups (not that I'm implying that you like mayonnaise, the Transformers movies, or The Matrix--I wouldn't presume)

    That said, I feel that season 3 totally failed to live up to my expectations--expectations founded on seasons 1 & 2.
  6. ImNotAStarWarsFanboy

    ImNotAStarWarsFanboy Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Feb 25, 2011
    Screw it, here's a deleted section from the post I made in this thread earlier in the week. This was actually first written a little while ago - I think the day after Plan of Dissent aired. Usually when I'm working towards a longer rant I type them up in Word first to format them better and so I have them saved for future reference should I feel the time is not right to share my opinions with the rest of the internet. When I proofread the whole thing though I felt this part didn't really gel with the "I don't care anymore" stance of the rest of it. I couldn't be bothered to rewrite the whole thing but I didn't want the time I put into it to be wasted, so I cut it and saved it in a separate document. This is slightly old, in that this was my opinion of the show before I came to the conclusion that what I was doing was stupid and pointless.

  7. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    And some people actually don't like sour neon gummy-worms and chocolate ice-cream. But I don't think that's evidence one way or the other in our debate. Nor is simply reiterating the original assertion after it's been rebutted.

    Also, I personally don't think S1 and S2 are that much better than S3, if at all. S1 had its share of clunkers the nostalgic seem to overlook.
  8. Magellan_the_Cat

    Magellan_the_Cat Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 21, 2003
    There's a difference between clunkers, meh, and "Holy ****ing Christ, what the hell are they doing?"
    I don't remember seeing anything in the first 2 seasons that fit the last category.
    When the best episode in the season is ok/mediocre, and the rest goes downhill from there, I think it is fair to say there is a problem.

    Remember that cheezy old Battletech cartoon back in the early 90s? The idea of getting any of the information from the Battletech universe besides giant robots fighting each other was impressive. No way they were going to touch on the concept of Freebirth vs the Genetic/Eugenics program. Oh wait, they did. Not in detail, but they managed something. That impressed me far more than the political attempts of TCW. (No one else seemed to agree with me at the time, and probably not now.)
    Perhaps we are having the same type of reaction, for different reasons.
  9. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    Interesting hypothesis. I'll just say that in my opinion S1 definitely has episodes that are as bad or worse than anything else in TCW (Bombad Jedi, Gungan General), and S3 has some of the best TCW episodes out there (Overlords, Nightsisters).
  10. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

    Oct 4, 2010

    I am a little behind on the Clone Wars right now; I just finished the Krell arc that culminated with "The Carnage of Krell".

    I must say that Carnage of Krell was the greatest episode of the entire series so far! Even though the main characters were absent, it successfully focused on the clones, especially Captain Rex, and the character development was phenomenal. Krell was a terrific villain, and the drama of the "clones vs clones" scene was some of the best we've seen.

    I am not going to say that my mind is changed about the series as a whole (see my previous post above), but this is definitely a good start to reviving the series before letting it sink to deep. I hope this spells great things to come!
  11. Master_Fwiffo

    Master_Fwiffo Jedi Master star 3

    May 29, 2001
    After tonights episode...

    Yes. Yes it has. Yes it SO has.
  12. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 15, 2011
    I'm still waiting for the "and then Obi-Wan awoke from his terrible dream, promising to never again think about or mention it"
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  13. 13thsithlord

    13thsithlord Jedi Knight star 1

    Aug 30, 2005
    Date Posted: 9/23/11 9:02pm Subject: Has Clone Wars Jumped the Karkarodon?
    I'll still watch like the loyal starwars fanboy whore I am, but this series is on its last legs.

    answer to above


    i just caught up with this thread and unlike some sites it nice to see a debate rather than slagging.

    i was just thinking about Dc and thier new universe and i guess clone wars fits in with this.
    (bear with me)a while back i read that Dc said that their readership renews about every 5 years and applying that to star wars the "average" punter probably hasnt read dark horse comics version of the clone wars and may not have seen the micro series.

    so this is their version- is that a shame i think so.
    why? because as others have posted and i have elsewhere clone wars contradicts itself and in some places is a poor fit with the movies themselves.
    and whilst it has had some great episodes a lot of it has been instantly forgetable for me

  14. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 7, 2009
    Much like the OP, I debated getting involved in this thread.

    I'll do it because I have a few minutes before the washing is done.

    Was this thread merely an excuse to cart out a play on words?

    Pretty much.

    These are the same, tired old prequel complaints all over again.

    People who complain about lack of originality really should come up with something more original.

    I can't understand how people can hate something so vehemently and yet spend money on it, hours watching it and years moaning about it.

    I can't understand why people are so negative in even starting threads - "where des CW stand in the best and worst cartoon" for example. Is it that the whiners make the most noise and the happy people are too happy to spend much time on the forums?

    Come on, folks. Lighten the stang up. Turn the frowns upside downs.

  15. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    That thread you're talking about is my thread, and it just so happens that I put TCW in my top tier of all-time favorite cartoons. Would you have preferred I assume everyone loves the show and not accounted for people not having it in their list of favorites when I made the thread? If so, I disagree.
  16. Hoggsquattle

    Hoggsquattle Jedi Master star 5

    Feb 7, 2009
    Yes ;) because peeps who don't like the show (and consider it in the lines of worst show) are wasting their time watching it.

    Not that a person can't choose to waste their time in whatever way they wish, but is it right to watch something just to complain about it.

    However, my point in mentioning your "best/worst" thread was to show an example of the negativity to be found on many forums like this.

    I don't mean you intended it that way, but your wording puts that kind of a slant on it - perhaps encouraging the naysayers and discouraging yahsayers in posting.

    Why not "How does TCW rate in your "all time list" of cartoons?" or something like that?

    It is a more balanced sounding statement but it isnt excluding one side or the other.

    I'm not saying we should love every second of the frachise but we don't need to be all grumpy pants ;) - and I don't mean that you are, I just mean people in general.

  17. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Feb 28, 2003
    There's really nothing that is original, when it all boils down to it. Star Wars itself can be argued as unoriginal and is pretty much just a hodgepodge of different influences that are put together in a well thought out and creative way. Some things are just lazier attempts than others. Which is why I find it curious that some people praises seasons 1 and 2 then bash 3 and 4. Season 2 may have had some of the best episodes, one of which was just a Second Battle of Geonosis, but the season also just homage after homage. There was some of that in Season 4 with the droids episodes, but Season 2 had the Godzilla episodes, a Lassie inspired episode, one based on the premise of Seven Samurai, and Zombies, all of which left me saying to myself "OMG, what they hell are they thinking?" more so than anything this season aside from the Gulliver's Travels/Wizard of Oz "homage," those were lazier attempts that really didn't inspire much creativity IMO. Shadow Warrior was inspired by Kagemusha, and while I didn't think that episode was great (but I didn't absolutely hate it either), I didn't think that the resemblance between the episode and film were as strikingly obvious as the other examples.

    IMO, I really don't think the show has changed that much as people claim, I actually thought Season 3 was a step up from 2, and while there have been some pretty bad episodes this season, the Krell arc; Massacre; Bounty; and the Cad Bane/Rako Hardeen episodes (minus The Box), were all good.
  18. Dark Lord Tarkas

    Dark Lord Tarkas Jedi Master star 5

    Apr 29, 2011
    I don't know why you would get the impression that a "best/worst" thread is excluding peoples' views and encouraging haters while discouraging fans. It's "best/worst." I don't see how that encourages someone to say they hate it any more than to say they love it. And if I left out "worst" as you suggest, wouldn't that be a case of excluding peoples' views? I wanted people who don't love the show to also participate.

    I get what you're saying in general because there are a number of threads just like this one whose sole point seems to be thoughtlessly bashing the series for the fun of haters, but you're missing the point of my thread if you think it's one of those. Did you actually read it?
  19. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    I believe Tarkas created the "Best and Worst Cartoon" list thread to gauge where TCW ranked on people's lists of best cartoons. It degenerated a little to an opinions war as most threads do here but mostly stayed on target. I learned a bit from that thread.

    We're not all haters btw. To quote myself from the other thread out to laziness.

    Let me reemphasize how great it is to see overarching plots and subplots growing in this series. Its also fantastic to see TCW moving away from using the monster of the day and CIS invades planet [blank] formula all the time.
  20. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 18, 2002
    I said with respect to Mortis last year that I give them credit for simply going for the home run, rather than playing it safe. Unfortunately, they didn't quite make the home run. And that's generally where they've been the last 2 seasons. Threatening greatness, but delivering episodes in the middle of arcs that slow down momentum or are generally superficial and could have been done in the newsreel.

    This season, I think the Krell arc is the only arc that has made sense as four-episodes as presented. Every other arc either should have been shorter, or they spent time on the wrong parts of the plot.

    The writing is by far and away the weakest part of this show. I think we can universally agree the show has never looked better, but the lazy writing, plot holes, and generally (even for SW) terrible scripts just start to grate after a while.

    It might not be that the show is in a tailspin, simply that it's plateaued. Or if it is in a tailspin, it's because they want to tackle some SERIOUS BUSINESS in Star Wars and don't have the talent to properly pull it off.

    It did concern me that 3 of the major arcs this season (being the beginning, middle arc and ending) have already been done before:

    -we've already seen Mon Cal with Genndy's series;
    - we've already seen the Slavers in the comics;
    - we've already seen Darth Maul and thought he died.

  21. rumblewagon

    rumblewagon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 24, 2004
    No, we will not universally agree, GARTH_MAUL. TCW did hit a home run with the Mortis Trilogy.
    -The Slavers arc was originally intended to be a TCW seris if you listened to the ForceCast, which obviously you do not.
    -Thinking Darth Maul dead is not the same as discovering he survived.
  22. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 11, 2011
    I believe the "universal agree[ment]" was supposed to be in relation to the animation, sound design and other technical aspects of the series. ;)
  23. 13thsithlord

    13thsithlord Jedi Knight star 1

    Aug 30, 2005
    im one of those wasting my time watching it...

    why? cause i hope it will be better - because i want it to be good because i like cartoons and love star wars and want to watch star wars cartoons

    but i genuinely just havent enjoyed the series - some parts of it yes but the series no.

    i understand that others have and thats great, but as a hard core fan (at least in the eyes of most who know me) i just dont like it. its not a PT thing- i enjoyed it although there were obviously things i imagined differently over the years.


    HEDGESMFG Jedi Master star 4

    Nov 20, 2010
    I do love that the show looks pretty, but even I still can't stand the stylized look of some of the characters at time, namely the spear beards. I'm used to it, but it truly hurts my potential appreciation of Dooku. He's just so much harder to take seriously in animated form, and the first TCW show had this problem too. I have always, always hated the look of the original TCW cartoon, but enjoyed it for the simplicity and fun of its action.

    Still, that's getting off point. My argument is that many people are still turned off by character designs alone in some cases, so even the love of the visuals isn't quite universal. They've gotten better, but the show is best when the CGI takes steps to create more realistic looking people who much more clearly resemble their live action counterparts.

    As for the writing? It's hit and miss. I find the show easier to absorb in marathons when I'm no longer concerned for continuity and future episodes. I actually really enjoyed rewatching the season 3 blu ray set, DESPITE how much I disliked parts of the first 7 episodes. I loved the nightsisters trilogy, and enjoyed Mortis. I'm not sure I'll feel exactly the same way about season 4, but who knows? I just may.

    There is good and there is bad. More than anything, there's simply too much filler content (if one can say that for a show which exists entirely as unnecessary filler). The droid episodes weren't horrible, but I found myself very annoyed with them. Simply put, a lot of episodes bore me now. Maybe I hate the utter blatantness of the show's kids cash grab nature. Star Wars has always been this way, but it feels like it's more intense with a television show. They can only do so much in the 3 year war. Will it end at season 6? I kind of hope so. This saddens me because I very much like the concept of the series, but I don't know if I'll be able to enjoy it as much until I know how they intend to end it. I almost feel like I'll enjoy it more once the ride is over, and not merely because of continuity messes.
  25. Seerow

    Seerow Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 7, 2011
    IMO TCW is definately the best looking animated show on TV and I'm certain thats probably the only thing we'll ever truly agree on. I rather enjoyed the Slave arc and looking back on it I think the Mon Cala arc is highly underated and would have been a home run had it not been the overhyped season premier it was. Do you really expect Dave Filoni to say these episodes suck in interviews? I've never been sure how much is to blame on the writers. Sure there have only been 3 writers since the show started that truly are cartoon/kids show writers and the rest write adult shows and seem like they would probably rather do other things but I don't think the problem is sheer laziness. The writers are limited in the kinds of stories they can tell, how they can tell them, and what they can do. This is why most cartoon spin-offs are reboots or exist in their own continuity. There also seems to be only a couple people pitching ideas. I can't imagine a storyboarding session would be quite a liberal as the ones for South Park. Thats a whole other animal but its the only storyboarding sessions for a show I've ever seen in detail. Everyone pitches ideas even though in the end Trey Parker will get the credit for writing the episode.

    Things like retcons, remakes, and comic book adaptions just don't mean much to me like they do to life long SW fans. I'm used to those sort of things being normal including really obvious marketing shots and don't view them as laziness. I also probably don't pay as much attention to the writing quality as most. I love things that are campy and full of plotholes. Really I'm glad I've never gotten deep into Star Wars and don't think I'll ever delve deeper into franchise than I have since I started watching TCW and started visiting forums. I wouldn't want to feel like my fandom for something is a job I hate.
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