Has Del-Rey Made A Serious Mistake?

You do realize you just called Mike Stackpole incompetent, don't you?

 

GAW--

"And why did RAS write Mara having this disease in the first place? Because he didn't know a thing about her."

Not true, as you indicate yourself in the next line. RAS could hardly present the "old" Mara Jade if he knew nothing about her. Outside of reading HttE and I, Jedi, RAS also had access to the reference information LFL and DR supplied him...what I believe Kathy Tyers called the "NJO writers' bible" or something to that effect.

"He wanted to go back to the "old" Mara Jade and was totally oblivious of the fact--because of his incompetent handlers and LFL and DR--that the "old" Mara Jade is really all that we have seen."

'Tis always easier to judge competence at a distance when you haven't got a clue what goes on "behind the scenes" at Del Rey and LucasFilm. By all first-hand accounts, your accusation of incompetence is grossly inaccurate and unfair.

"Fortunately, after VP we have been able to see the "new" Mara Jade."

And two of those books were written by Mike Stackpole, whom Bob Salvatore thanks in his acknowledgements "for giving me insights into this world I was entering." Evidently, Mr. Stackpole was one of Mr. Salvatore's...*cough* *choke* *gag*..."handlers."

Added P.S.: Exactly, DL.

 

Chewbacca of Kashyyyk needs to jump in here and agree with Dewlanna. There was so much that RAS was not familiar with because he did not read many of the books. CoK has heard many of the reasons that RAS has given and they seem to be the card that he was dealt.

Still, had he been more familiar with the EU, he would have written Vector Prime diferently (maybe better, maybe worse), but definately different. If you look at balance Point and Vector Prime, you will find many nuances that indicate one author was more familiar than another.

 

Chewbacca of Kashyyyk, now there's a wrestling persona to remember. General familiarity with the EU is in no way a prerequisite. Fathoming Mara's, Lando's, or the Solo kids' character isn't an insurmountable task not reading their respective stories. Really, some editor/fellow author aide, and a flip through the SWE or other reference books can help an author pinpoint whatever caricature a character may fit in. This isn't rocket science, and these book characters, quite candidly, aren't all that complex.

 

Icognito, since the quote you attributed to me, wasn't actually spoken by me but by Jade's Fire, i'm not sure how you see me subverting your thoughts.

I would like to also ask. If your going to continue to be rude with your responses, and trying to confront others in such a way that intends to anger people then the least you can do is read all the posts fully, and then attribute your comments to the correct person.

 

Sorry COK but I think your post will be in vain.

I'm now of the view that RAS made a few errors, some his own, some LFLs. (Show me a writer who does not make errors) For me those errors came to have the status of a moon in an eclipse, they eclipsed an OK story. That's my view on VP at present.

But this thread is no longer about DR making mistakes, or anyone else. It's about saying those mistakes were not mistakes, they did not happen, whether they concern characters, plot, events, marketing or other.

Which seems ludicrous. Mistakes will hapen but they do not destroy entire stories unless they are major with a capital M.

Now:

RAS did not make any errors of that magnitude to my mind. Nor has DR. The errors DR made have been marketing ones, which they have learnt from.

There have been errors of portrayal, of pitch the story's balance of light-dark, but they have been learnt from, BP being the evidence of the learning process.

Yet what is the problem with acknowledging errors? Even small errors like Tendra/Lando?

B5 is the best example of a preplanned arc still going wrong in places and that was written by one author. NJO is written by at least nine.

Ah, but those errors are matters of opinion, unproven? OK, but in that case this'll go on forever: agree to differ.

Best wishes,

Jedi Ben

 

Let's take a look at the acknowledgments page of VP.

" . . . Shelly Shapiro, for holding my hand through the Star Wars maze, and for bringing a fresh vision to an old story. . . . To the folks at Lucasfilm--Sue Rostoni, Lucy Autrey Wilson, and Howard Roffman--who brought an honest and unyielding concern for quality that forced me to stay at my best. . . . Mike Stackpole, for giving me insights into this world I was entering . . ."

MAS is mentioned last and only for providing "insights."

Judging from this acknowledgement, the primary editorial supervision came from DR and LFL--simply looking at the language RAS used will tell you that. There's a big difference between holding someone's hand to guide them and providing insights.

In the case of LFL, we have to bear in mind that these are the same people who allowed Barbara Hambly and Yolanda McIntyre to receive contracts to pen an SW novel or two.

"Really, some editor/fellow author aide, and a flip through the SWE or other reference books can help an author pinpoint whatever caricature a character may fit in. This isn't rocket science, and these book characters, quite candidly, aren't all that complex."

As someone who has all the Essential Guides and the Encyclopedia, I honestly do not see how they can help provide insights into a character when all they do is summarize the plots of novels and the characters involvement in those events. I'm not diminishing these terrific reference materials, just saying they don't provide the whole picture that an author needs.

AniSS,

Allow me to rephrase. RAS didn't know a thing about the growth of Mara's character in VotF, and for some reason his handlers (and I'm not counting MAS in this, since he certainly was not involved in every step of the editorial process; he only provided insights; he didn't do any hand holding) didn't provide him with copies of SotP or VotF, although the one they really should have provided him with was VotF since that shows Mara's character growth.

 

GAW--

According to the acknowledgements, MAS provided RAS with "insights into this world I was entering." Don't the alleged mistakes concern the world RAS was entering? Isn't that the subject?

I can't see why the order in which people are mentioned has any importance whatsoever. If anything, from what I've heard from RAS on this board, in interviews and in person, the book's acknowledgment modestly understates the support Mike Stackpole provided. Also, I seem to recall that Mike Stackpole read an early draft of the novel, to which he gave a thumbs up.

So please excuse me if I regard your distinctions as splitting hairs.


Jedi Ben--

I'm sure Vector Prime contains some "errors." But honestly, I can't judge the three subjects of discussion as errors or mistakes.

Mentioning Cilghal in Vector Prime would only have accentuated a point that RAS actually made using the phrase "best doctors in the New Republic." Had RAS known more about her, he still might not have included her--just read his thoughts on the subject. There are other issues as well--like the fact that VP was designed as a jumping-on point for new readers, so the editors wanted to avoid unnecessary EU references. I cannot regard her omission as a "mistake."

As for Tendra, she never appears and never gets mentioned in ONSLAUGHT, UNION, and YJK #13, and appears only briefly in THE ESSENTIAL CHRONOLOGY. If it's not a mistake that authors who knew (or probably knew) about Tendra fail to mention her, I can't regard her omission in VP as a mistake. Furthermore, I'd make an educated guess that if RAS had known about Tendra, he'd at least have asked if he needed to include her...to which the reply, presumably, would have been "no."

Until Ms. Tyers specifically asked LFL to let her show Lando and Tendra as married, LFL did NOT consider them married. So not showing them together was hardly a mistake.

Finally, as I've said a couple times now, Mara's relatively weak Force bond with Luke in VP is a direct consequence of her characterization, for which the author explained his reasoning several times. Also, on this thread, you can also read Mr. Salvatore's opinions regarding the use of the Force in EU novels. Clearly, the author carefully thought out Mara's characterization and the depiction of Force use in VP. I have no sound reason for believing that much would have changed had RAS read VotF.

 

GAW...
"I'm not diminishing these terrific reference materials, just saying they don't provide the whole picture that an author needs."

And therein lies the whole crux of this problem. I'll just begin to list what the Star Wars expanded universe is made up of the following items (by no means an all-inclusive list, either), a majority of which contain multiple stories...
1. Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith
2. Tales of the Jedi: The Fall of the Sith Empire
3. Tales of the Jedi: Knights of the Old Republic
4. Tales of the Jedi: The Freedon Nadd Uprising
5. Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith
6. Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War
7. Tales of the Jedi: Redemption
8. Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace movie
8a. Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace novelization
8b. Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace screenplay
8c. Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace script
9. Star Wars ongoing by DHC - some 24 issues already
10. Star Wars: Jedi Council
11. Star Wars: Darth Maul
12. Star Wars Adventures: Search for the Lost Jedi
13. Star Wars Adventures: The Bartokk Assassins
14. Star Wars: Adventures: The Fury of Darth Maul
15. Star Wars Adventures: Jedi Emergency
16. Star Wars Adventures: The Ghostling Children
17. Star Wars Adventures: The Hunt for Anakin Skywalker
18. Star Wars Adventures: Capture Arawyne
19. Star Wars Adventures: Trouble on Tatooine
20. Star Wars Adventures: Rescue in the Core
21. Droids TV (too many 1/2 hour episodes to list)
22. Droids: The Kalarba Adventures
23. Droids: Rebellion and Season of Revolt
24. The Protocol Offensive
25. Jabba the Hutt: The Art of the Deal
26. Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire
27. X-Wing computer game (and mission packs)
28. Dark Forces: Soldier of the Empire
29. Dark Forces computer game
30. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope movie
30a. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope novellization
30b. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope radio drama
30c. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope script
31. The Paradise Snare
32. The Hutt Gambit
33. Lando Calrissian and the Mindharp of Sharu
34. Lando Calrissian and the Flamewind of Oseon
35. Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka
36. Han Solo at Stars End novel
37. Han Solo at Stars End comic adaptation
38. Han Solo's Revenge
39. Han Solo and the Lost Legacy
40. Rebel Dawn
41. Tales from Mos Eisley
42. Marvel's Star Wars monthly - 107+ issues (9 years worth)
43. Vader's Quest
....

Well, that should give people a _BASIC_ idea of what people should read to get an account of the characters they're dealing with. Now, some may have different opinions on what matters "more," but that's purely subjective. Some things to note - there are a scant few people, much less fans or authors who have read the entire expanded universe Star Wars saga. In fact, I highly doubt either Tim Zahn or Mike Stackpole (just naming some perceived fan favorities) has read all of the stories either. If fans as well as other authors haven't read it all, how can RAS author be expected to know about all such stories. Now, if people wish an author to know an "important" (again, subjective) story - that's according to their own opinion.

The simple fact was that there wasn't any "mistake" by keeping RAS focused on the movie feel of Star Wars. There wasn't any "mistake" in not having him read one or another story. There's literally thousands of expanded universe stories, most including the main characters which RAS wrote about.

If people are going to complain about "why wasn't XXX" addressed, that's simply an unreasonable requirement to make in the face of so much information. RAS was given a job to make the NJO feel like Star Wars again - and the only "mistake" would have been to concentrate on things other than what he did.

 

Absolute errors must be "factual discrepancies." If the alleged error stems from idiosyncratic or biased roots, that by itself annuls it as an error. However, you may have a more *qualified* opinion than me, presuming you have the credentials as a *renowned* critic of literature. Even if you are more certified, if I can produce counterexamples to your data, your criticism still doesn't amount to a "mistake."

"As someone who has all the Essential Guides and the Encyclopedia, I honestly do not see how they can help provide insights into a character when all they do is summarize the plots of novels and the characters involvement in those events."

...the reference sources in combination with editor and author aide. MAS has a firm grasping of Mara in your stance, no? [Even if I feel his Mara is basically the equivalence of a wiseacre Mirax] Stackpole discloses his insights, and RAS writes using his own perception of a married woman with a strong sense of self-sufficiency, which isn't that far-fetched to Mara.

 

AniSS,

Thanks for the reply, but I do not believe you are able to prove the errors I see in VP to not be errors, objectively.

What follows is aimed at everyone:

SW is not and never will be a story for which standards of proof exist, people read and interpret it as they see fit. This entire thread is testimony to what happens when people see their subjective views to be objective fact. One who thinks they are Right will try to impose their view on another, one who recognises their view to be right for them will not.

It is true that where morality is concerned I have no truck with relativism, but I see no problem in using it here. Or else we end up opening the doors to ideas of truth and falsity, canon and apocrypha which only does damage to Sw in my eyes.

I do not see anything else to say on the topic, which is why I advise everyone here to agree to differ. Each of you surely knows those who dispute your views will always do so, due to whole subjective nature of the discussion and vice versa. Each of you knows those who dispute truly do so with counter arguments and evidence to your own.

It may be that the whole clash of opinion is an example of incommensurable ideas, engaging with others nonetheless, but the engagement itsef may be mistaken. To accept this is to reject anyone can be truly right or wrong but dores it matter to you if another accepts your view of SW over their own?

My interest here is no longer debate but conflict resolution.

To GAW: I truly don't wish to kill your thread but things have become so entrenched, that my proposals here may, if accepted, result in this happening. Alternatively, the thread will change direction, OR continue going round in circles.

Regards

Jedi Ben

 

I've been lurking but I didn't want to jump in but finally after reading the last post I decided to get an account name. Because all I want to say is listen to Jedi Ben. "The truth he does speak." This thread was interesting to read but now its just a bunch of shouting the same things over and over again.

I started reading Star Wars books about a year ago and so far all i've read is the first three Thrawn books by timothy Zahn and Vector Prime and a few comic books

The only thing I have to add to the thread is that I liked Vecotr Prime and I have no porblem with it, anyway, it's just a story and not a cure for cancer. But some of the arguments about Mara and the Force are making any sense. Especially whoever said taht Mara has no power in the Force based on the story in the Star Wars Tales comic book. That was set before Mara met Luke in the first Thrawn book and Luke helped Mara get her connection to the Force back. By the end of the Last Command Mara was very strong in the Force and in the last chapeter of the Last Command it says "She stretched out with the Force; but she knew who it had to be. And she was right." and it says "From his sense she could tell he was here for an answer." And whoever is arguing about Mara being unable to use to Force to contact anyone is forgetting the scene in Vector prime where Mara sends good thoughts to Jaina. Someone else pointed that out frist but I thought it was a good point. So while I don't see why it such a big deal I do think that some arguments need to be thought more about.

But its only a book. So listen to Jedi Ben.

 

Its amazing of how we're still entrenched in our positions over VP.

A new direction is in order, and I believe Genghis has provided us with one.

Let's talk about "getting back to the feel of the movies."

What does this phrase mean to each of you?

 

SSJ2:

Choewbacca of kashyyyyk agress with you..totally, the books are not complex. That is why so many people where (and are?) so disappointed with VP.

If you objectively look at the reaction from BP and VP, you will see that BP was more of what the people expected from the characters. They behaved as they had in the past. They were familiar, and because of that, better received.

CoK is not saying that RAS had an easy task. It almost seems that he was thrown to the Rancor on this one and CoK is willing to accept that. It was also tough to drive the SW EU in a different dirction. Understood!

But as far as mistakes, there was but one for me. The moon. CoK does not buy it...and CoK likes the Vong and their biological creations a lot.

The timeframe was the problem for CoK. It was a stretch, shall we say. One could argue that the Vong became cartoon like after that..not realistic. After all, if we accept that a moon is falling, would there not be enough time to evacuate a planet. Sure there would. Say it with me..Sure there would. This was, as CoK said earlier, a stretch. Did it accomplish its goal. Debateable.

CoK can understand wanting to make the galaxy more dangerous. It was the way it happened, a falling moon disappointed the peoples wookie.


OK, deep breath.

 

Taking up your suggestion GAW, the "feel of the movies for me" are these elements:

1. A clearly defined, if a tad murky at times, line between good and evil.
2. A suggestive portrayal of close violence while descriptive explicit violence is restricted to lightsaber duelling/space battles.
3. Humour between the characters as well as conflict.
4. Character growth and development.
5. A restricted role for politics, must not overwhelm the story.
6. Highly improbable victories, or surprisingly snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.
7. Redemptive aspect to be involved, mostly focused on a character.
8. Emotional and rational aspects to a character.
9. Chance

If DR wants to go back to the movies these elements are needed, all of them that is, OK, applying this to VP, with a few digressions along the way:

VP has elements 1, 5, 6, 8 and 9 but I am uncertain of the others. VP was more violent that previous 'mainline' novels. I use the term 'mainline' to distinguish between books like TAB, TTT, DE, JAT/IJ, HOT and books like COPL, XW1-9, COTJ, D, POT, BFC, NR, TCT, which have optional status in that I truly believe you could not read the books and still follow the main Bantam story line. I didn't say some, like XW, were not worth reading. I just dispute the supposed need for graphic violence, as SW has got by just fine without it.

There seemed an absence of humour, though there was emotion with Chewie's death and the fallout from it. Element 4 does not really fall within the book's remit: to provide an introductory episode that sets things up. Yet in terms of characters, there is a lack not dissimilar to the characters in TPM. They seem lacking depth, which has only really been supplied by BP, the job that is one of BP's main tasks as the next instalment. Han and Luke were well-written, except for Han's interaction with Leia after the Wook bites it.

Then again, I have found very few authors have written Leia as she is in the movies, her caring aspects often seem to be forgotten in favour of the aristocratic, cool career woman devoted to the 'higher' cause of politics. Leia in the movies, in the end, struck a balance between the two e.g. her going to Tattooine to rescue Han. It may have took her a while to find it but she did balance out the conflicting causes, of friends and love versus the rebellion. The Bantam line is perhaps guilty of having Leia neglect her children in a way the Leia of the films would not. (In answer to the question of how she is supposed to meet commitments of family and the NR, the answer is to tell the NR to get stuffed on those occasions when Leia judges she is not needed.)

The role of politics were restricted if a little simplistic, for balancing politics to other story elements I see Zahn to be the best author at this. Stackpole is good at this but he does allow politics to override morality which is not SW in my mind, in Zahn there is a recognition of politics and the corrosive effect it can have on truth and morality, Stackpole also does this but in a weaker sense. But Zahn seems to reject the idea of cultural difference equalling an escape from moral demands, in a stronger way than Stackpole who allows Fey'lya to cite culture as a permission for his wrong acts towards Asyr, Fel, Luke, Corran, Leia and others.

Getting back on track, element 7 is absent but this is similar to 4, it isn't the book's remit, but Salvatore does make the Solo brats hugely flawed egoists, setting up their growth, learning and possible redemption for future errors from those flaws nicely. The chance element, of things just happening is here but is a tad stretched, like it is in TPM. Luke and co happen to pay Lando a visit, who sends Han to a planet under attack, eventually our heroes end up foiling the first invasion strike. TPM: Jinn goes to Tattooine, stumbles across Anakin, who later happens to land inside a ship, happens to hit the torpedo switch, which happens to blow up the ship.

Let us compare the 1st and 2nd eps of the two stories: Classic Trilogies and NJO, with

 

I posted this essay on a different thread but discussion has convinced me that it belongs here instead. So ...


I too wonder about the future of Star Wars literature, specifically the EU following the original movie trilogy. I know this thread isn?t specifically about the marketing of the books but that side of the story interests me greatly so I thought I?d insert my observations and speculations here. I figure this thread is as good as any and, for whatever reason, I don?t ever start topics myself.

I was looking forward to the NJO like nearly all of us were but was disappointed that Del Rey decided to take the story in a darker direction with an overly ambitious, five year arc generically written so as not to ?disenfranchise? young or new readers, many of them brought into the world of Star Wars by the Episode I movie earlier that year. This approach was bound to alienate at least some faithful readers (which it has) and Del Rey should have seen it coming. Maybe they did but it was a risk they were willing to take, who knows?

Anyway, Let?s look at how the NJO books have been received by the public, specifically their sales numbers. I know the public data is not definitive, but it certainly can illustrate some general trends.

The first book, "Vector Prime," was heavily promoted, more than any Star Wars book in history, and sold well, better actually, than recent hardcovers from Bantam Spectra. I believe it debuted at #10 on the New York Times bestseller list and stayed in the top 15 slots for about a month. This isn?t surprising considering the hype it received and the fact that this was the first hardcover book to come out following the Episode I movie.

The subsequent NJO paperbacks have sold well too, but their chart performances don't tell the whole story. Many copies of "Ruin" and "Jedi Eclipse" have been sold on the wholesale level (which is where the bestseller lists get their numbers from) but large quantities remain on store shelves even today suggesting that their excellent positions on lists were somewhat inflated. In other words, they don?t accurately reflect books sold to individuals. Also, the paperback version of "Vector Prime" had abysmal sales for a Star Wars novel. Its numbers were reminiscent of those generated by the later Bantam ?Tales of the ...? short story anthologies which never made it into the top 15 on the NYT bestseller list. This suggests that anyone even remotely interested in reading this story bought the hardcover edition ... which helps explain its strong sales record.

A year later, the second NJO hardcover was released, ?Balance Point,? and it was probably the single best NJO book so far. With little of the fanfare and the hype of its predecessor, it debuted at #13 on the NYT list, slid to #18 a week later, #21 the week after that and #30 today. This performance is reminiscent of the last few Bantam hardcovers by Mike Stackpole and Tim Zahn. So, after all the hype, a change of publisher, a story redirection, some new authors, a different editing style, etc ... we are back to where we were 3 years ago. So, anybody feel like celebrating? I doubt Del Rey and LFL will be joining you.

What these numbers tell me is that some marginal Star Wars fans were persuaded to try the NJO series kick-off book but that aside, post-RotJ Expanded Universe readership is ESSENTIALLY FLAT. All of the initial (and expensive!) promotion has failed to make faithful fans out of people who purchased the first NJO novel. I?m guessing that Del Rey found this out when they looked at the lackluster advanced wholesale orders for its paperback version. Perhaps that was
something of an epiphany for them. Certainly, it must have been a warning sign.

Actually, I think the whole NJO has been a tremendous learning lesson for Del Rey and maybe LFL too. The original plan called for 5 paperbacks per year in addition to a hardcover. I?m guessing they thought Star Wars books could be ?cranked out? as though they were Star Trek books. This explains why they decided on such an ambitious, long term stor

 

Apparently it wasn't Del Rey who cancelled Knightfall. Let's spread the blame around if we're going to blame anybody. LFL is as responsible for NJO and in some cases moreso than Del Rey is.

 

For me, the ?feel of the movies? is the following:

I?ll make use of all of your points Ben.

I think its pretty clear that my favorable opinion of the movies has been quite low since I saw TPM.

In terms of the ?main? Bantam novels, I totally agree with you, except that I believe that NB had quite a bit of relevance by showing us just how fractious NR politics would be in the future?something that Zahn built upon beautifully in HoT.

I don?t recall a lot of emotion over the death of Chewie. I don?t recall Luke, Leia or the three brats offering any kind words to Han at all. Lando was the one who should have felt worst of all, but he didn?t express any emotion. Yes, Han was written well in VP, but I can?t sat the same for Luke. Luke is an emotional person and for him not to express any emotion towards his wife or over the death of his brother-in-law?s best friend continues to throw me for a loop. Luke has always worn his heart on his sleeve, but not in VP. He struck me as being too cold and aloof from his family.

Now for Leia. I have chosen to defer on this and pass the buck onto someone else who possibly understands her character better, since I really don?t care about her (but I doubt that comes as a shock to any of you).

Now for the role of politics. Speaking as a fervent believer in realpolitik, I find it absurd to believe that political decisions should be subjugated to morailty, since they are artificial restraints. Zahn had a delightful mix of politics, character development and action, all of them given equal treatment (although I did find SotP to be rather slow moving at points). Reading the opening crawl of TPM, my interest was piqued over the taxation dispute, but for one line from Palpy before the Senate, that is all we hear of this dispute. The entire crawl focused upon politics and politics was driven short thrift in the film.

Humor. Especially for the NJO, humor really is necessary to make sure the readers don?t get too depressed. For me, I?ve found Ruin to be the most humorous when Pellaeon politely gave his moff?s a good dressing-down. In addition, any banter between 3PO and Artoo is bound to be hilarious due to 3PO?s prissiness and cowardly tendencies?and his whining. Or even if we get Han?s line ?I?ve got a bad feeling about this? or some other immortal line from the films, the reader is bound to chuckle a bit of a chuckle(of course that is if we aren?t constantly hit by them again and again). But we are subjected to a different kind of humor in TPM: slapstick. I just saw this as a very disturbing development that the vast majority of Jar-Jar?s scenes did nothing whatsoever to move the plot forward in any way. It wasn?t necessary for this thing to tag around with Qwi-Gon and Obi-Wan?Jar-Jar served no logical purpose from the time he got them back up to the surface till the time the Queen needed to seek out the Gun-gans to provide military support for their offensive to retake the palace. At least Artoo and 3PO?s presence in the films moved the plot along, although for the most part their role in the EU has been far less important.

Military operations. Labeling them ?improbable victories? doesn?t express it enough. Impossible victories is more like it. That the Imperial military lost at Endor is inconceivable from a tactical and strategic standpoint.

Redemption. This is definitely the focus of the films. But we?re beyond those now. There aren?t anymore maniacal despots around.

Chance. I tie this into the impossible victory operations that hinge upon certain acts taking place like an out-of-control A-Wing just happening to ram right through the bridge of the Executor.


My interest in SW is in its politico-military aspects, which is why I enjoy the EU so much more than the movies, since the massive influence of chance or the will of the Force or destiny is far less prevalent than in the movies. We don?t have any normal (the Sun Crusher is not a normal ship type) single ships ramming into the bridges of Star Destroyers nor do we have a sh

 

Yes, LFL does share a good portion of the blame as well, but this isn't the first time they've messed-up rorally either. Perhaps we should consider ourselves fortunate that the books were calcelled--for all we know they could have had a lot in common with Hambly or McIntyre's lackluster novels or like VP. Perhaps LFL is learning from their mistakes at last.

Now to comment on your essay Bror.

I totally agree with you about the story arc being "overly ambitious" and that the story arc is very generic. And I'm still curious as to exactly how many "new" readers were brought into the world of SW literature, since I doubt the 10-12 age set would really be interested in picking up an NJO book, especially to read about Chewie dying.

And I really don't like relying on the bestseller lists because a single book is counted several times when they should only count the ones that are sold to readers. That's why all these new books are at the top of the NYT Bestseller's list so quickly--because the sales figures are intentionally inflated.

-----

As a side note, I'd like to apologize for the replacement of apostrophes with question marks in my last post. I don't know why that happened. I shall check my posts more thoroughly within the allotted editing time-frame in the future.

 

If they had a lot in common with VP, then we are truly unlucky for losing them.

 

Grand Admiral Wettengel, I agree totally with your comment about the lack of emotion from the characters. Although I am not an EU fan, I do read the books just to see if the story arc will ever improve. I'm still waiting...

I could not understand how Chewie's death did not have more impact than it did. It was almost as if no one but Han really cared. That was ridiculous. Your comments about Luke were also correct. Although in BP, he seems to be more affectionate, his character is out of line with the Luke that has been written in the novels.
It's very frustrating as a fan to want to see the characters portrayed as we first knew them - in my case, through the movies - and find that the authors pen them to be characters we just don't recognize. Oh sure, they have the same names, but they are just not the same person.
Leia is a perfect example. I know you said that she is not a favorite of yours, but if you will go back and read Jedi Ben's post regarding Leia, you will see why I am dissatisfied with the way her character is portrayed as well.
Very interesting thread.
Regard,
Ranting Jedi

 

You know I don't feel that way, DL.

But I'm sure that we all would like to know the real story behind the cancellation of Knightfall. It would be nice if somehow we could get MJFs perspective on the cancellation, then we could reconcile that with Shelly Shapiro's comments and hopefully somehow arrive at the truth.

Honestly, I'm very surprised to have seen that the entire trilogy was scrapped by LFL and DR because it just didn't fit. That explanation seems far too superficial to me given the fact that this is a storyarc by committee. I just wouldn't view the cancellation of the trilogy as solely MJFs fault, rather blame must be shared by him because he just couldn't "get it" and that blame must be shared by editors at LFL and DR for not assisting MJF in "getting" SW or in not having enough sense to scrap the trilogy early on enough so it could somehow be salvaged.

 

Hi GAW,

An expansion on what I meant by emotion, while there was little around, it was present in the form of Han snapping at Anakin and Leia, generally losing his control and falling apart while Anakin felt guilty. The only emotions on show were grief, anger and guilt, without much in the way of balance.

Other than that, therre is little I can add to my prior post.

Regards

Jedi Ben

 

Bror, I just have to point out something you are wrong about.
The Vector Prime paperback did not sell as well as an *original* paperback because many of the hardcore fans already owned the hardcover. I didn't buy the soft cover, and I'm willing the bet the majority of folks here did not buy the paperback version either. The massive sales of the hardcover guaranteed a slower pace of sales for the paperback. With that said, the paperback is still doing very well for itself in the sales department.

Another laughable thing is how you keep bringing up how much VP and the NJO in general were hevily promoted (and even had a commercial-- despite the fact the commercial only aired in a two hour block on a single cable channel. I never saw the commercial, I don't have cable). Of course they would be! This is the flagship novel of a new era and promotions fuel sales. I would expect no less from anyone else. And with more sales come more satisfied customers who might not otherwise have read the novel.
The truth is, NJO is doing very well and continues to do very well and everybody except a small microcosm of online fanatics unrepresentive of the entire Star Wars fandom, is very pleased with both LFL and DR.

 

Darth Ludicrous, You are right about one thing. There is blame to be spread around and I have done that in previous posts. It?s just with the change of publisher, there was a noticeable change in books so it?s too easy to point to Del Rey even if they aren?t 100% responsible for what?s going on.

As for everything else ...

"The Vector Prime paperback did not sell as well as an *original* paperback because many of the hardcore fans already owned the hardcover."

Thanks you for agreeing with me. I already said that. I clearly stated before that the strong hardcover sales "scavenged" the paperback sales and I hinted at it again in the above post. If you read the appropriate passages carefully, you'll find it.

"With that said, the paperback is still doing very well for itself in the sales department."

Really? How do you know and what are you comparing it too? I know that it was only on the expanded NYT list for 2 weeks ... which was about the same as "Tales of the New Republic," which is weaker than any other SW paperback I've EVER seen. Maybe residual sales are decent, I don't know.

"Another laughable thing is how you keep bringing up how much VP and the NJO in general were heavily promoted ..."

Umm, why is that laughable? I merely showed a correlation between strong promotion and strong sales. You are desperately stabbing at anything I've said.

"The truth is, NJO is doing very well and continues to do very well and everybody except a small microcosm of online fanatics unrepresentive of the entire Star Wars fandom, is very pleased with both LFL and DR."

Really? I'd turn that around and say it is a small microcosm of SW fans here at this board (and others) that will buy anything with "Star Wars" on it that skews things. I still believe my main premise, that readership of the post_RotJ EU is essentially flat despite the promotion. The facts favor my argument and you've said nothing to effectively challenge it.