Has Del-Rey Made A Serious Mistake?

What was ignored in Vector Prime that was so important? Was it the YJK novels? Because I don't really consider them that important? Was it Wedge Antilles and Rogue Squadron? Because they really didn't have anything to do with the story in Vector Prime either. Was it Tendra Risant? Because apparently LFL thinks so little of Lando being married that they pulled the plug on it... no explanation needed. Her omission speaks for itself. She wasn't important to the story in Vector Prime. What was it? What was important? Was it the thernbee in New Rebellion that saved Luke's life? Luke should have kept him as a pet. What happened to him?

I'm sorry, but not everything needs a long drawn out narrative explanation.

NJO was put where it was because the Solo kids would be older and there would be many more fully trained Jedi knights. It was also put where it was so it wouldn't be perceived as just a simple continuation of Bantam, but a whole new story arc, a new fresh beginning. Five years were skipped *in order to reintroduce us to our favorite characters in a new way. Think of it as meeting an old friend you haven't seen in five years. A lot has changed, a lot hasn't, but you both still have some catching up to do.*

 

". Was it Tendra Risant? Because apparently LFL thinks so little of Lando being married that they pulled the plug on it... no explanation needed"

Huh...and here I thought you had advance knowledge and all. Oh well ;-)

 

Podkayne...
"So, were there a lot of unresolved plotlines from the comic books that HttE ignored or got wrong? Never having read the Marvel comics I have no idea."

Well, for one Thrawn Trilogy copied many of its key elements from Marvel's series. The whole concept of an Emperor's red-haired, special agent who wishes to kill Luke/becomes romantically involved with him was created by Marvel in the form of the original "Emperor's Hand," Shira Brie. In fact, the key plot-line - a special blue-skinned, red-eyed alien Imperial military leader was also used before in Marvel. Even the Noghri were knock-offs to some degree. The enslaved race of aliens who were the followers of Vader was originated by Marvel in the form of the Skye, another Marvel creation. In name and concept, they were very much like the Nagai, the deadly knife-wielding assassins originated by Marvel. The whole idea of using a crazy "conceptual clone" of Ben Kenobi to lure Luke was used by Archie Goodwin in the old comic strips. In a sense, HTTE drew all of its ispiration at the core level from earlier works - namely the comics.

 

Grand Admiral Wettengel...
"All this nonsense that Vader had an apprentice is utter drivel, since we have no mentioning of such a woman in the films AND thast flies in the face of GL's two Sith rule."

Nope, Marvel worked within the confines of the two Sith rule some 15 years before it ever officially existed - that's pretty darn good. There were two post-ROTJ Dark Lords - Lumiya and Flint. Neither one was seen prior to Vader/Palpatine's death as Sith. Both were seen just after as the new Dark Lords. Therefore the rule of two was in place and working just fine. Like the prequel movies don't show any transition between Sith, we were not shown this either.

"I seriously doubt that LFL exercised much editorial oversight over these comics, so they don't add up to much in my eyes."

That simply untrue. There has always been LFL editorial oversight of their Star Wars license since the very beginning. In fact, George Lucas actually had more personal involvement with the early expanded universe material of Marvel's series and first few novels than he's had ever since.

 

Anakin Skysolo said "And Podkayne: I can't see any major difference. So the X-Wing novels and comics and Courtship filled some of the gap between RotJ and HttE. That's true. But those books and comics were written years after HttE. At the time HttE was written, we had little documentation of the war between the New Republic and the Empire in the intervening five years."

Perhaps that IS the difference. We left our heros at the end of RotJ in triumph, setting out to overcome the Empire. When HttE opens 5 years later, they HAVE done what they were setting out to do at the end of the last "chapter."

For me, HttE seemed to flow from RotJ. LATER, when I read the X-wings, TaB and CoPL, HttE fit even better as a contination of the saga.

The change to Vector Prime was too abrupt. The story didn't flow from my previous vists to the SWU as HttE did from RtoJ. It will take many, many pages by excellent authors who know the SWU as well as the long time fans to make VP "fit" with the rest of the saga.
Stackpole made a start in Onslaught, Luceno helped with HT. One can only hope that an accomplished author and long time Star Wars fan such as Ms Tyers can make the NJO seem like a genuine part of the SWU.

 

Dewlanna Solo...
"AniSS's comment about HttE coming 13 years after the first SW novel also supports the notion that the RotJ/HttE gap and the VotF/VP gap are totally different."

Yes, I agree. In fact, much more information and history was known in 1990 than was known in 1977, much like more information and history is known now than was in 1990.

"...but I think it came out before the RotJ) and HttE, the first Extended Universe novel?"

Well, first off, there was no such thing offiically as the Extended Universe. The Expanded Universe came into an official designation in 1995 to group LFL's non-canon Star Wars licensed products. The EU was born some five years after the Thrawn Trilogy. When it first came out, Thrawn Trilogy was no different than SOTME, etc. It was not part of some special legal or marketing entity like the "Expanded Universe." It was the first in a line of Bantam books like SOTME was the first in a line of original Del Rey books.

 

Genghis12 says "Well, for one Thrawn Trilogy copied many of its key elements from Marvel's series. The whole concept of an Emperor's red-haired, ....................... In a sense, HTTE drew all of its ispiration at the core level from earlier works - namely the comics. "

Let us see if I understand what happened. Does it go something like this? Someone at Marvel had a good idea that only a handful of comic book readers read about. Then someone at LFL decided that the novel reading public should have this story as well and hired Tim Zahn. Zahn changed some names and details and wrote a blockbuster book that opened the entire EU to a far greater audience than any comic book series ever could. And in doing so, they ignored the entire Marvel continuity to make a more profit.

Ok, I think I understand now why DelRey ignored the Bantam "history."
It is all about greater profit isn't it?

But I think in this case Bantam miscalculated the fan response to the near total break with the past. The long time EU fans are not a handful of comicbook readers whose devotion could be ignored.
The long term EU fans are many in number and vocal as well and quite ready to let DelRey know of their displeasure in the only way DelRey will understand. They will stop buying the books.

I think DelRey made a serious mistake in slighting the Bantam books in the opening of the NJO and in being very slow to bring well liked elements of the EU back into the books.
Just my opinion.

 

Slighting the Bantam Books, Podkayne???
Del Rey did no such thing. In fact they listed them all in Chronological order in the front of Vector Prime! How is that slighting them?

 

Or try this, Podkayne -- the Marvel comics really didn't make a huge impression on the public at large. Their back issue value remained dormant & nonexistent until the '90s -- I used to joke about my poor taste in comics as I watched the back issue prices of my brothers' X-Men and Spider-Men soar into the stratosphere while mine remained at $0.50/each.

I have a nearly complete run of the SW comics, bought when they were first published -- and five years later, when HttE was published, I barely remembered their storylines and saw little to no resemblance between the comics and Timothy Zahn's first trilogy.

I don't want to ascribe motivations and inspirations to Mr. Zahn, but if there are similarities it seems to me that they fall more into the category of a wink-wink nudge-nudge "homage" rather than "rip-off."

 

I disagree, aleja. I think the similarities to Marvel are coincidence at best. my reasoning is that up until he worked on the Mara Jade comic, Tim Zahn had a public disdain for comics. I just can't imagine him reading any.

 

I think there is a very big difference between the Marvel comics and the Darkhorse comics. Is there an EU reference to the Marvel stuff in a book or something? I don't remember too much of the marvel comics and I know I didn't read them all but I don't think I read anything about them in any book. The books talk about the damage to Corusant and the emperors clone but those are both Darkhorse.

Back to the question of between Bantam and Delrey, I would like to see what the Jedi students were doing and how did the end up divided. They really were not used since Kevin's "Darksaber" which wasn't very good.

 

Podkayne...
"Let us see if I understand what happened. Does it go something like this? Someone at Marvel had a good idea that only a handful of comic book readers read about. Then someone at LFL decided that the novel reading public should have this story as well and hired Tim Zahn."

No. I think it's more like Zahn had a story to tell at the right time LFL wished to have a story be told. Really, the only way we'll ever know the degree and scope of editorial guidance is if someone speaks specifically about them. We do know that LFL make "substantial conceptual" changes to Thrawn Trilogy with respect to the C'Baoth and Noghri concepts (C'Baoth = Obi clone and Noghri = Sith). However, essentially, the story that was told was Zahn's story - a single author telling a single story.

"Zahn changed some names and details and wrote a blockbuster book that opened the entire EU to a far greater audience than any comic book series ever could."

One should note that Dark Empire, which was on the schedule for much longer than HTTE went on to break every record comics had at the time. Regardless of whether HTTE was released, the Star Wars expanded universe would have been jump started in 1991 anyway. Since both were released at the same time, non-RPG SW fans who really had been waiting for 5 years got a double-whammy that year.

"And in doing so, they ignored the entire Marvel continuity to make a more profit."

No, it's just that like NJO, the existing continuity didn't have much key places in Zahn's story. While it may have been neat to have Han say something like "Oh, _ANOTHER_ red-haired Emperor's Hand - bet she falls for Luke" or Luke say "I'll handle Mara, I'm use to dealing with Palpatine's red-haired agents" or Leia say "Hmmmm, another blue-skinned, red-eyed alien Imperial commander seems ." That would just be "easter eggs" for those who knew. By Marvels being nearly hard to come by even in 1990, that would be a tough gamble to take. They could've alienated their new fans if they filled the books with references that no one can really obtain anymore.

More than anything else, it comes down to an author having a story to tell. Only in specific cases does LFL have authors tell someone elses' story (case of the novellizations). Generally you get the best/most creative work with the least amount of editorial control.

 

I agree DL. Coincidence. Some are running a crusade in an attempt to smear Zahn. ;-) I read some of the Marvel comics. Up to about issue 36. I just found the stories too weird, crazy, and not Star Wars-ish. All those early comics had was the SW characters, but in typical comic book stories.


One thing that I don't like about the Vong, that I finally put my finger on, is the totally bio-based concept. At first I thought it was a good idea. Now, I am not so sure. I think the idea that all Vong technology is completely bio-based has prevented me from suspending disbelief on many levels. What if a Vong warrior has a piece Ithorian stuck in his teeth? Does a Vong warrior find some bio-engineered toothpick? The total reliance on bio-based tech means that the writers have to come up with stranger and stranger concepts to accomplish some task, or just totally avoid something because coming up with a bio-creature will seem too hokey.

This has lead to what I believe is a biological arms race among the writers. Each new book seems to have some new creature that tries to top the previous ones. First off there was the terraforming beetles, mini gravitational wells, and the large dovin basal that brings down Serinpidal's moon. Then we get mini-black holes, the fouling of Ithor which seemed to take hours rather than the days (month?) that the beetles took on Belkadan. Then in HT, we get the Vong super-Hoover, sucking prisoners out of the Jubilee Wheel. Next, fire breathing dragons and the transformation of the waters on Tynna in minutes. It's the old superweapon envy problem from the Bantam line that some many readers complained about.

If the original idea was to have the Vong be mostly bio-based, but have them use inert technology such as metal that can be forged and fashioned, and other similar things, would have been better and allowed me to suspend disbelief easier on the Vong. I can only take so much before the brain kicks in and says 'What a minute, this is just too outrageous.'.

 

"fire-breathing dragons" have been done in Star Wars before. There was the fire-breathing Dragon Slug on Hoth that ate the creature that makes Lumni Spice. This was the Goodwin/Williamson comics. The same creature showed up later in the "Shadow Stalker" comic. Indeed, New Rebellion had fire-breathing lizard-peeps.

And Jades Fire... remember the "traditional weapon" Yomin Carr used for a few scenes in Vector Prime? It was a knife. A simple shard metal knife. Vong can use non-living inanimate objects. It machines and mechanicals that imitate life that offends them. I seriously doubt they have a turtle creature bred specifically to serve as a paperweight.

 

DL,

NJO was put where it was because the Solo kids would be older and there would be many more fully trained Jedi knights. It was also put where it was so it wouldn't be perceived as just a simple continuation of Bantam, but a whole new story arc, a new fresh beginning. Five years were skipped *in order to reintroduce us to our favorite characters in a new way. Think of it as meeting an old friend you haven't seen in five years. A lot has changed, a lot hasn't, but you both still have some catching up to do.*

Many more fully trained Jedi Knights? Well, were there ever any firm numbers given on the number of trainees Luke had at the Academy or those that were "fully-trained?" I don't remember any hard numbers having ever been provided, unless they're in the YJK books, which I haven't read nor never will read. Therefore, I think that one explanation of yours, while it does make a great deal of sense, doesn't hold much water.

The second one--"the Solo kids would be older"--is the reason I believe we have this gap. These three know-it-all upstarts are suddenly being thrust upon us, and that irritates me to no end because I just view it as being extremely unrealistic. For Jaina to been the primary architect of the NR strategy on Dantooine strikes me as ridiculous. Did Leia or Luke give the briefing for attacking the First or the Second Death Stars? No. The briefing was left to the military professionals--Dodonna, Ackbar and Madine--not to some sixteen-year-old Lieutenant who had only just become a part of Rogue Squadron.

Then we have Jacen. Why this coward is even allowed anywhere near the front-line is totally beyond me. Last thing you need is someone spewing their pacifistic, defeatist philosphy about. Jacen should be arrested and quietly moved to a distant world where he won't hinder the war effort and could meditate all he wants.

DL, in terms of VP, I refer you back to several previous threads that have discussed VP in quite a bit of detail.

The questions that you cite are totally irrelevent. These are the questions that I see as needing an explanation:

--- How did Borsk become President when Bothans were so despised throughout HT?

--- Where did this anti-human bias come from?

--- Where did this anti-Jedi bias come from?

--- When did Luke "lose" control over his students?

--- When did Kyp's personality regress?

 

--- How did Borsk become President when Bothans were so despised throughout HT?

He became President. It's not important how. Would you prefer a novel like Luceno's upcoming Vallorum Palpatine detailing all the behind the scenes politics? Not me. This election already makes me ill, I couldn't read about one in Star Wars.

--- Where did this anti-human bias come from?

Fermenting for years... a result of aliens being held down by the human Empire. Bitterness is not so easily overcome.

--- Where did this anti-Jedi bias come from?

Probably started when Kyp blew up Carida and other Jedi started harrassing smugglers.

--- When did Luke "lose" control over his students?

Jedi Academy Trilogy. But really... he never took control of them, now did he? He didn't send them on missions or hold them under regimental control like some militia. he let them follow the Force, their instincts.

--- When did Kyp's personality regress?

It didn't. Kyp isn't a kid. he's an adult, a grown man. He's also a zealous defender of justice and the innocent. It's not like he's a darksider. He's cocky like Corran Horn was when he was Kyp's age.

 

Jades Fire...
"Some are running a crusade in an attempt to smear Zahn."

Let's weed out the perpetrators of such a vile and heinous deed and put them in the Embrace of Pain! Seriously, though. I do think Zahn gets both his fair share of misplaced praise as well as comdemnation.

"Coincidence" still doesn't necessarily excuse it. Could an author come out with a new story tomorrow and have a red-haired female agent of Palpatine alternate between romancing Luke and wishing to kill him? Let's just name the character something exotic like Lura Brade. I seriously doubt that EU fans would be so easily to dismiss any resemblence to prior characters. In fact, I'm sure such an author would probably receive not only death threats but also be vilified as the most unoriginal author the EU has ever known. Now, let's also put that same character in a story involving a blue-skinned, red-eyed alien Imperial "Super-Commodore." And, for good luck, let's add to that a plot involving an Obi-Wan Kenobi look-alike who wants to control Luke. Just for kicks, we'll also add into that a new secretive race of aliens who owe specific allegience to Darth Vader because of some sick deception made long ago. They will be extremely skilled assassins and extremely deadly with a blade - we'll call these aliens the Nagril.

Coincidences? I doubt most people would be so nice.

 

actually, aleja, I've backed off the tiny details just so there will be surprises for me in the novels. I've known all the major BP spoilers for months now. And I'm not talking "months" as in just two. Little surprise details are what keep me motivated.
After Vector Prime was published I was assured LFL nixed Lando married. If that has been reversed and he and Tendra are married, then either LFL reversed their decision, or it was such a passing comment that it slipped under the LFL rubberstamp without notice because...

Balance Point Spoilers










Lando isn't even in Balance Point... he's just "mentioned".









end spoilers

 

"One should note that Dark Empire, which was on the schedule for much longer than HTTE went on to break every record comics had at the time."

Um, nope. Largest single selling issue belongs to X-Men #1 and before that to Spider-Man #1.

Maybe DE smashed all of Dark Horse's in-house records. But mainstream comics records? No way.

"Regardless of whether HTTE was released, the Star Wars expanded universe would have been jump started in 1991 anyway. Since both were released at the same time, non-RPG SW fans who really had been waiting for 5 years got a double-whammy that year."

About a year ago, Gordon Radley was quoted in the Hollywood Reporter as saying that all current day interest in SW, including the impetus to do TPM, was due to Heir to the Empire.

Although '91 was the height of the comics speculator craze, comics are still not very mainstream. All by itself a comics series would not have created a general buzz -- comics are a speciality audience and are sold for the most part in specialty stores. This is probably even more true for Dark Horse products, which tend to be sold via the direct market, not by rackjobbers on newsstands.

 

D'Lude:

Then perhaps you SHOULD (but you're not REQUIRED :-D) check with your sources even about little details and "mentions" before opening mouth...oh, you can finish the rest of the sentence :-D!

 

either way, aleja, it doesn't matter, since some 15 YJK novels were published without mentioning Luke's marriage to Mara despite ample oppurtunity.

 

Huh? Apples and oranges, buddy, apples and oranges. That's a post for "Has the YJK Series Made a Serious Mistake?"

No one is arguing if Bantam's continuity was screwed up (YES) or whether books set later in the timeline but published first should include events from those yet to be published books (KINDA HARD TO READ PEOPLE'S MINDS YEARS IN ADVANCE NOT TO MENTION SPOILING THE SURPRISES IN THE FUTURE BOOKS).

But we ARE arguing whether DelRey, the supposed "WE'RE getting our books RIGHT from the START" people, have screwed up.

So since you seem to be arguing that it's okay for DelRey, the "planned master story" people, to have the same lacksadasical attitude toward continuity as did the "jump all over the timeline" Bantam people, I guess that means you agree DelRey has screwed up in this regard! :-D

 

has nothing to do with Del Rey. if LFL reversed their decision regarding Lando's marital status, that's their business, not Del Rey's.

Whether it is about Bantam, Del Rey, or Berkely, it is always about LFL.

Mara married to Luke may not have been around the whole run of YJK, in fact, it only became fact during the last three, but the Lando/Tendra situation is exactly the same. If the decision to allow them to be married happened after VP, how would it have been included in VP?

 

Maybe I'm missing something here -- and I don't really want to talk about Balance Point since I don't think it is appropriate here -- but the difference is that this is supposed to be a planned story arc. Bantam's books weren't. IN other words, DelRey SHOULD know the marital status of their characters from the get-go. It's not a surprise to them or to LFL that this is a five year, 2- um, 20-something book series.

The crux of the matter is that you were pooh-poohing the info some people wanted to see included. And lo and behold, guess what! Some of that info IS included! It's deemd importatnt enough to be answered! Gee, guess that wasn't so difficult (or forbidden - sheesh!-) after all.

I guess some people know that the correct social thing to do, when meeting a friend after five years, is to inquire about the friend's significant other. It shows caring, respect and a head for details. :-D

 

Planned story arc, check.
Figured out what the Vong want, check.
Knowledge of marital status of each pivotal character, check.
Factored in pushy fans, ch---. Oh.