PT Has Episode II dethroned Episode I as the worst entry?.

I remember when Episode I was the most hated, but recently it seems, Episode II has fallen in popularity.
Like ANH and ESB, they really are opposites. While Episode I was a story about the good guys winning and had clear cut good guys and bad guys (Palpatine not included), Episode II showed not all villains wear masks, in the case of Palpatine, and can also be enigmas that you're really not quite sure of even when the credits roll, in the case of Dooku.
Both had their share of slapstick and yawn scenes, Jar Jar, 3PO, the longer than needed podrace in Episode I, and some of the Padme and Anakin scenes in Episode II.
Overall though While Episode I is a great entry, Episode II takes that and adds onto it, creating a more complex story and an impending doom that John Williams Score helped with greatly.

 

In the eyes of some this appears so. I still like AotC most of the PT. I really no longer pay attention to the lame fan spats. Each individual likes what speaks to them and differences aren't wrong.

 

AOTC is a classic epic romantic adventure. While some people dislike the romantic aspect of the film, I don't mind it at all. It's pretty charming actually to see Anakin fawning over Padme, (I admit probably because I'm exactly like that when I'm crushing on a girl) and of course there is magnificent scenery and artwork. TPM, while I do certainly enjoy at parts, I find quite hard to sit through. Some portions of the film are needlessly long, such as the trip through the planet core and the hour plus spent on Tattooine. It's just too much. It feels way longer than it is, but of course you want to sit through all that stuff to get to the Duel of the Fates. If I just skip to that scene, I feel like I cheated.

 

AotC isn't romantic in the least bit to me. That is the aspect I like least. I like the mystique suggested of the Sith via Dooku. He is also proof for me that all Sith aren't monsters. He has a nobility that is unique. I likewise like the visuals of planets and creatures. TPM is still the poorest of the set for me. Hardly anything I like at all same with ESB.

 

I feel it has.

I've heard some say that it happened when TPM came out in 3D. Also books like Darth Plagueis have come out too.

 

Eh, I still see more hate driven towards TPM due to Jar Jar (a character which I personally like btw) and the fact that it was the first mediocre sequel/prequel after such a great, and well-liked trilogy. AOTC, however did have the romantic element (which was actually introduced on Tatooine in TPM), but that, I must say is not actually a poor implement. Luke Skywalker must be the son of another Skywalker Jedi, which at this point in the prequels, it is obviously Anakin. If Lucas just randomly procrastinated with this, and threw the Padme & Anakin relationship in at the end of ROTS, then I believe that there would be much greater negative uproar from the crowd.

 

Yes.

Whether or not it has "dethroned" TPM. I still personally love AotC over TPM.

That is all.

 

AOTC is my least favorite of the prequels, and 5th favorite of the saga. I enjoy all 6 movies though.

 

AOTC certainly is not without its flaws, but it does crystallize its protagonist's arc better than TPM. Anakin's internal struggle is there, whereas Padme's arc in TPM deserved to have some more meat on its bones.

 

At the time it came out, I felt that AOTC was way better than TPM. But as time has gone on, I see them roughly as equals. I agree that it seems fans have sort of gravitated more toward TPM over AOTC, but that's just going off what I see on these forums. In some ways, the pacing of AOTC isn't as tight as TPM. I don't think either film is truly that great, but I still enjoy them enough. I think for me, the biggest problem with AOTC is the lack of chemistry and unbelievable love story between Anakin and Padme. The whole Obi-Wan working to unravel the mystery of the Clone Army and the Sith? I love that and wish they would have explored it further. On the flip side, the Jar Jar stuff, pod racing, and overload of Anakin sort of impedes my enjoyement of TPM. I think there's also too much politics in both films. It's nice to see how the Republic operates, but some of the scenes I feel could have been shortened or done away with in place of dialogue between the more prominent characters. I don't think either film holds a candle to ROTS, which is by far my favorite film of the prequels.

 

Keep in mind that a person can be "a noble" (as in, an aristocrat) without being noble in the colloquial sense.

Being noble in the colloquial sense tends to be associated with mercy, compassion, and a sense of "fair play."

Like in Batman Forever, when Robin, who has spent half the movie obsessed with getting revenge on Two-Face, has the chance to let him drop to his death, and saves him:

Two-Face: "See you in hell"
(Robin grabs his wrist and pulls him up as he's beginning to slip)
Robin: "I'd rather see you in jail."
Two-Face: "Good boy. The Bat has taught him well. He is noble..."
(pulls gun)
Two-Face: "...stupid, but noble."

Dooku could be said to show this when he chooses to try to lure Obi-Wan to his side instead of killing him on the spot - but then, so could Vader in TESB or Palpatine in ROTJ. Something can seem noble on the surface, and yet not be, underneath.

 

AOTC had almost no politics from what I remember. What "politics" in AOTC do you refer to?

 

There's a classic thread on this matter that you might like to review:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...and-distancing-themselves-from-aotc.21151421/

(Note the creation date of that thread: 2005. This paradigm was noticed the year of ROTS's release.)

You've got a nice take on the two films there, though the good guys don't really win at the end of TPM. It's more of a Pyrrhic victory -- amplified ten-fold at the end of AOTC. The "victory", in both films, really belongs to Palpatine / Sidious / The Sith / the Dark Side.

Evil, in a way though, is more intermixed with good in AOTC. In fact, I think one reason for some of the hostility and discomfit surrounding AOTC is, down to the fact that AOTC presents more an admixture of heroism and villainy, and has a commensurate emphasis on blindness, confusion, anxiety, absurdity, and ambiguity.

AOTC's main rival that summer was the upbeat "Spider-Man", giving people a cathartic release after 9/11 (it was even shot in New York just before the grim attack), a picture that is less complicated than Clones and obviously stands in stark aesthetic opposition to it. Its other rival would be "The Two Towers", released some six months later, which is a more dour movie, and whose title does inadvertently evoke the terror attack, but maybe doesn't induce as much panic or sublimated unease as a title like "ATTACK of the Clones", much less possess its troubling story content (it might not be a popular opinion, but I contend that Jackson's LOTR is a significantly less involving movie series -- at least thematically -- than the prequel trilogy).

AOTC is also more "fragmented" -- for want of a better term -- than the other five, offering, for instance, five key locales instead of the usual three, in/on which significant events happen, an approach to mentorship that it itself more fractious than the other installments, a slightly more avant-garde approach to sound design and music, some rather brusque intercutting, strained political colloquy, and, of course, a "forbidden" romance with staccato-like nods to courtly love and ritualized references to death and destruction. The film also splurges considerably on action, packing its last reels with so much misdirected (in-universe) derring-do as to almost obviate its preceding hour-and-a-half (even though it is the inevitable conclusion to the thematic implications of the preceding material), giving it something of an identity crisis, perhaps; though also enabling it to live up to the pulpy promise of its explosively (and deceptively) silly subtitle. Of all the Star Wars features, AOTC seems the one most eager to include the audience whilst also excluding them. It's rather indulgent, basically.

I think, as well, people do tend to subconsciously compare AOTC with TESB, and they often find the newer film lacking. Chiefly, whilst the films share the same basic plot structure (leads begin together, leads separate, leads somewhat unite after an awkward "rescue" attempt), and the same thematic emphasis on the fallibility of the lead protagonists, TESB is a much more intimate movie, with more of a "leave-your-brain-at-the-door" nostalgic tint. In contrast, AOTC can seem a little indigestible, since it is more willfully "Golden Age" in its grammar or sensibility, and in contrast to Empire, which has a dank, claustrophobic feel (very powerfully evoked on Dagobah in particular), AOTC is more of a galactic travelogue, with continental locations befitting a James Bond movie or Indiana Jones escapade, and a sense of sobriety in its character dynamics that is more like a period drama than a western or screwball comedy. Yet AOTC tries to manufacture some classic "buddy" humour on Geonosis between Artoo and Threepio, in contrast to the other prequels, making it a little more like TESB, yet maybe in some sort of "Uncanny Valley" sense -- the conceit is a little obvious and forced.

Is that a bash of the movie? Is anything I've said a bash? Not really, no. At least, not from my POV. I'm just trying to adumbrate a sense of disorientation or disaffection that AOTC seems to have engendered. The final aspect concerns the use of digital technology. In AOTC, digital technology is used with rich abandon. Though I wouldn't say reckless -- there is, of course, a still-generous use of locations, sets, models, miniatures, and other practical effects. TESB, on the other hand, is a film that was accomplished before the true birth of digital effects technology: real film, real places, real masks, real pyrotechnics, and so on. AOTC seems to cause consternation because it is saturated in digital effects, digital alterations, and was, of course, the first high-budget feature film to be shot with digital cameras. It can give everything more of a waxy, weightless feel. Though that seems to have been used to good effect in AOTC. Even the film's opening shot is an inversion of the classic "pan down" -- the camera defiantly, mindlessly, weightlessly, drifting "up" instead. So I like it a lot. I like the contrasts. I like the film's arrested energy. Its sense of melancholy. The colours, the compositions, the art direction. It's a very busy and very watchable piece of cinema. And it's also one to let roll around in your mind somewhat. I find this less to be the case with the other five.

I would add one more thing about AOTC and it is this. Along with "THX-1138", it is probably the most brutally anti-authoritarian film George Lucas has ever made. AOTC, unlike the other five, maps a classic antagonism between conservatism and anarchism onto Obi-Wan and Anakin, which it then offers as something of a "skeleton key" to unlocking its themes and ideas generally. Even the production notes state that the Anakin we see in AOTC is probably Anakin at his most conflicted at any stage in his journey. TPM describes him -- or Qui-Gon in TPM describes him -- as "a vergence". Think about this. Those subtle notes of discord between he and Obi-Wan are not just thrown in. We have shapeshifters, clones, a war mired in the Dark Side, and a secret wedding. There are more "falls" in this movie than any other episode. Beheading imagery also features throughout. And that doesn't just mean a character literally has their head chopped off by another. Heads generally have a sort of "floaty" quality here. They feature on ad boards, in strategic scene wipes, because the camera frames a character at the shoulders, etc. Another motif is to do with positioning. "If only Senator Amidala were here..."; "It should be here, but it isn't...". Each of those lines has a follow-up. The use of the colour white (clones with their pristine white armour; Dex and Amidala with tatty and torn shirts respectively). Vines. Pillars. Statues. Chains, sticks, and spikes. "Clone" is derived from the Greek word for "twig". "Attack" is linked to "stake, stack, attach". It's by no means a simple movie of "good vs. evil".

Not that I'm sure any of that really answers the question. I guess I would agree that AOTC generates more active antipathy than TPM, though TPM still seems to be the least-liked overall. I have great affection for TPM, too. But then, I've always been an odd duck, so that's just fine with me. Both films feign at being lighter or more "trashy" (in the case of AOTC) than they really are. You might say they have a docetic quality. One gets repeated glimpses of an immense artistic temperament beneath a "tame" exterior. These are clearly the movies that George Lucas hoped some day to make.

 

When AotC came out I "assumed" it was better than TPM and thought about it this way for a long time, because *drum roll* there is (almost) no Jar Jar in there. I realized that I "liked" Ep II better than Ep I because it found a way to "cheat" it's way into my heart for a few years by

1. No Jar Jar. Yeah, I know that hating on this guy is like flogging a dead Taun Taun, but he is still annoying as hell. At least to me. It felt like a small victory that all the backlash moved Lucas to give in to what the fans "demanded" and let Jar Jar (literally) smile for the camera one last time.
[To balance that Lucas put Binks in Ep III in charge, to give more power to Palpatine and screw the galaxy for the next few decades. What a bargain...]
2. The ESB-Illusion: Lucas played his cards pretty good when he assambled the trailers for Ep II. It made us think that this would be the ESB of the PT.
It had "romance", a lightsaber duell in the dark, a Fett, a chase in an astroid field, Stormtroopers, people giving up their mission to rescue a friend in distress and an open "bad" ending.

In the end it boils down to the viewers taste how all these ingredients work out, but the last time I saw AotC it did not matter to me what the elements where. In my mind they were put together in a very cheesy and (even worse) boring way. I have to agree on what Cushings Admirer said: the "romantic" plot is not romantic at all. It feels forced. I'm not sure if anyone brought that up here before, but the fan theory that Anakin (subconsciously) made Padme fall in love with him by (unknowingly) using the force to transfer his feelings onto her, seems more realistic to me than the creepy idea that Padme gets funky ideas about a boy she met when he was 9(-ish) and she was 14. It seems like Padme has no reason to fall in love with this guy. But, hey they have to. The story demands it.
The rest simply bores me. Obi Wan's investigation could have been a Sherlock Holmes-esque plot with a lot of action etc. but most of it and (the rest of the movie) consists of sitting and talking or walking and talking.
To me this makes it a way weaker movie. The Phantom Menace manages to entertain me one way or the other, but Attack of the Clones bores me. This is far worse in my opinion than Gungans.

 

YES!!!

TPM is only a boring but harmless movie, but AOTC downright offends me.

 

Mind me asking your opinion on AotC in comparison to the other films? I'm curious.

 

Well to me AotC had higher highs and lower lows than TPM.

TPM felt average or mediocre throughout the film. AotC had some really good parts and then some bad parts that didn't work at all for me. The romance is one example. I never bought it, I did not see two characters in love, I saw two actors reciting lines that they didn't believe in.

AotC's ending worked better than TPM and was quite exciting. TPM had a very good duel but the other parts worked less well.
However I think that AotC has held up less well than TPM. That Yoda fighting was really great the first time but it got old fast. To me, AotC has more plot problems than TPM and it felt more contrived when I saw it the second time.

I remember the reaction here, many said that AotC was much better than TPM, more action, more lightsabers, no kid Anakin, less Jar Jar, Fett. But the reaction cooled after a while and more people began to have problems with the film.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Precisely why it sits at the top of my list still. I can definitely see the cons of the film, but I just never felt as though the cons fell over the pros of the film. Your post made me see the romance scene a whole lot more clearly. Boy, the things I would do to take out the romance scenes.

 

@ Commander Krix

It turned the Jedi into hypocritical slave masters, showed Anakin as a psychopath right from the get-go, has fascist propaganda in it and includes "to be angry is to be human". This movie angers me.

 

I agree. After seeing how the Jedi order operated (and their dogma), I thought, "hmmm maybe the Sith philosophy isn't that bad after all...." LOL.

As far as the movie, I still prefer it over TPM.

 

Fascist propaganda???

I could imagine that being said about one of the "Lord Of The Rings" movies, Nolan's Batman triptych, or J.J. Abrams' violent, pandering, corporatist "Star Trek" movies...

But AOTC?

 

I think the idea is that "Democracy fails horribly in AOTC" and that this is a message - that Democracy will always fail.

Seems a bit of a stretch for that to be AOTC's message though.

 

Not for me. Clones excels with its pulp adventure qualities, while on a thematic level I think it's probably the most interesting of the overall cycle. And more than one of my favorite character moments come out of Clones--paradoxically, despite that I consider it Lucas's love letter to pulp fiction, Clones has quite a few stretches where I forget I'm "merely" watching space adventure. Anakin's goodbye to Padme on Tatooine, the Tusken confession, and the secret wedding are the type of transcendent Star Wars moments that ensure the series still speaks to me as I get older and my taste in art changes a bit.

If an Internet majority disagrees, oh well. Wouldn't be the first time (Alien 3 is the best!)

 

Remember when TESB was the "worst" film and it was only "dethroned" by ROTJ years after it's release?

I wonder what the internet writings would have been like after the disappointing TESB which got it all so wrong?

 

No, I think it's better put as "every Republic is part democracy, part dictatorship" -- and that none of these terms matter very much if people don't truly have each other's backs or are oppressing each other out of tribal loyalty, or out of fear, ignorance, apathy, or greed.

Democracy will fail if people let it. Democracy requires more than idle belief (unlike what Queen Jamillia says). It requires alert, wide-awake, active, informed citizenry. People like you and I who make efforts to be reasonable, to keep learning, and to see past simplistic dichotomies; and absolutely refuse to participate in or support the violence of the state.

I think it's a pretty radical film, myself.