PT Has Episode II dethroned Episode I as the worst entry?.

One of the biggets problems with AOTC is how wooden and unconvincing the romance scenes are between Anakin and Padme.

And I'd echo other posts in that the PT is rushed in how Anakin turns to the dark side, and that (IMO) is down to the fact that they made him a kid in the first one. It then meant that the next 2 films had to speed through to his eventual fall to the dark side.

An Anakin / Vader based trilogy of films was a very exciting prospect back in the late 90's. By 2005 I felt shortchanged with how it panned out. It could have been more darker...... more Vader.......... more convincing.

But in answer to the OP I think that TPM is the weakest of the PT for me.

 

Well, clearly, to me....... it isn't.

Thanks, but that's a little sweeping.

You shouldn't try and speak for a general audience, IMO. Just speak for yourself (unless you have good evidence for what others think) and leave it there.

Uh huh.

Poor eye....... when Hayden, in my opinion, has a brooding, James Dean quality to him, conveys the feel of an authentic human being, and maybe just portrays a character that some people don't like?

That and, in my opinion, the Star Wars movies have always been well-cast, with a range of very respectable talent inhabiting a broad palette of characters, which subsequently inhabit a very big canvas.

 

I love, love love the Clone Wars parts of Episode II, including Obi-Wan and Count Dooku. I agree 1000% with the bold (I am working on ignoring lame fan spats.) Treasure to some, junk to others. It is all good.

 

Well said, Lok. Obi and Dooku are the standouts of AotC for me.

 

I could have watched Ewan and Sir Christopher play off each other for much longer time than they were given. I wish there would have been more given their connections to Qui-Gon.

 

Indeed. I really would've liked to hear some of the history Sir Christopher teased so subtly. Have to admit Christopher and Liam as a Jedi pair is a fascinating idea! Not to mention Dooku and Qui-Gon do seem to be quite similar in some ways like following their own intuitions even when the Council says no.

 

Nicely said Cushing's Admirer. A lost opportunity, you can see where Qui-Gon some of his more rebellious traits from. The concept of the Lost Twenty fascinates me. It's one of those great ideas given a line or two and then promptly ( ) thrown out. <I know the Clone Wars cartoon covered the Lost Twenty a little bit more but I did not watch that series. >

<Freely admits to not reading / watching much PT EU material >

 

So, do you think anyone was poorly cast? That any aspects if the saga suffer poor direction?

 

Firstly, can I just say, I echo sentiments expressed in the last discussion strand -- more Dooku and Obi-Wan would have been cool. Always felt, for example, the interrogation scene between Obi and Dooku is a bit too short. Would also have been excellent to have had the "Lost 20" plot make it into the film. IMO.

Not really. Of the mains, I think Carrie and Harrison are a little lost as characters and performers in ROTJ. I wouldn't call them poorly cast, though; or accuse them of turning in poor performances. They're just not all they could be in that last movie. IMO.

Poor direction? Again, not really. There are things that irk me in the films, but they're quite trivial overall. I suppose I'm not overly fond of some of Ewan McGregor's acting on Coruscant, post-Order-66, in terms of the way he handles his character's reaction to the security recording, or when his character refers to the recording when confronting Padme. It's rather flat-footed. IMO.

You want more examples? I could pick out some silly stuff from the existing movies, like the way Han flops to the floor after getting thawed by Leia in Jabba's Palace -- why didn't she make any effort to catch him or slow his descent? Convenient that he is conscious enough to put his hands out and stop himself from smashing his face in. Another moment of stupidity in the same movie is, again, from Leia, on Endor. I don't buy that she would just allow herself to be shot at out of nowhere and not run for cover (the scene where she meets Wicket). Her shooter can obviously see her, but she can't see him. She should seek out an entirely new position, instead of lazily poking her head up over that log, just asking to be blasted in the eye.

Or in ROTS, the way Dooku tosses Obi-Wan and the platform is crushed down on his body -- that looks fake as hell. I suppose some of Ian McDiarmid's ham-acting as Sidious is a bit too much at times, too (though I'm rather fond of the whole performance, myself). Reaching back to TPM, some of the gags involving Jar Jar in the land battle aren't all that funny (the boomas skit, for example). I mean, I enjoy them as spectacle, but they're only just acceptable, in my view. I'm a guy that loves Jar Jar, but that's one area in which his physical humour doesn't work, even for me. The podrace, in my view, also suffers from a distinct lack of tension. It's just too easy for Anakin to catch up with the leaders and overcome Sebulba at the end. Again, however, I enjoy it as wondrous spectacle.

Do you want me to keep going? There are bits in all the movies I might find less than brilliant, but I also find all the movies brilliant overall. So I don't see the point in heavily criticizing any of them, personally. Fun to do now and again, but rather draining and useless as one's primary mode of discourse. That's my take, anyway.

 

FROM MY LOCKED THREAD ( didn't see this one)

I'm not going to go into too great of detail at the moment as it is is very late night (or early morning) where I am now. But I will get this off my shoulders. A new form of bashing has begun in the past year or so. Everyone with an internet connection has now seemed to move away from TPM and ROTJ (keep in mind I love all 6 equally) and now seem to bombard AOTC with hate. As AOTC was indirectly my first star wars movie (the first I seen full in theaters) and the prequel that I personally think has best imagry and EU inspirations, I get a bad taste in my mouth when even defenders seem to hate clones.I believe this is caused by 1999 TPM nostalgia and fans needing a scapegoat film, well 2002 is my 1999 folks . What do you guys think? I'll talk in depth more later I'm pretty tired.BTW I absolutely love Count Dooku/ Sir Christopher Lee, I don't mind Hayden that much, and I like Natalie.

***NOTE: I posted this in my own thread before it got locked cause I didn't realize this thread already existed.***

 

While AOTC is my least favorite star wars film, there are some things I enjoy to make it a fun popcorn film. The action is good with the speeder chase being a fun chase scene. The Geonosis battle is the best part of the film for me with a fun jedi arena battle and awesome battle scenes. Obi-Wan's investigation is enjoyable with Kamino being a cool new world. Christopher Lee and Ewan McGregor are probably the best actors for me even if they have to say some corny lines. The things I did't like were mainly the love scenes as Anakin and Padme just don't seem to have chemistry for me. Some of the acting was rather wooden (Sorry Hayden) and there was some cringe worthy dialog. Overall, a heavily flawed film that I do have some guilty pleasure for and I do enjoy some of it. Anyways that's just my opinion.

 

I find them heartfelt and totally convincing in the olden time way they were meant to convey. Modern rom com it isn't.

I don't think it's rushed in the least. They spend 3 movies on it. It starts in TPM. That is the root of it all.

I felt that we'd just seen one of the greatest feats in film history. 6 movies over 28 years telling a story of one person from childhood to the end of their life.

I don't know how it could have been any darker or more convincing. It wasn't about Vader but how Anakin became Vader. We know the important parts of the Vader half of his life already. That is the point of it all.

Great point. Sam Witwer made a point that it was like George wanted Anakin to look like James Dean but talk like Christopher Walken.

HC's vocal quality is very distinctive. He sounds old and young at the same time.

Exactly. Anakin has been worked on by both Obi-Wan and Palpatine. It can't be overstressed that Palpatine has been working on him for 10 years by AOTC.

The people that spend so much time worrying about the form of Lucas' dialogue (which is purposely planned out to NOT be cool, hip or modern) totally miss the actual meaning of them.

I often wonder if the real problem is that some people just think that because he did it a certain way in the OT that he had to do that again in the PT and when he didn't do it that way all the time that he got it "wrong" as opposed to it just being different.

When you really start to peel back all of the layering he did across the movies the intricate clock he created becomes more and more fascinating.

 

Well I suppose everyone has their own interpretation on GL's written dialogue. Nothing wrong with that at all. Personally. I think his understanding of the art of dialogue between characters and the intricacies of human nature is quite lacking for an adult man.

 

AOTC is the bravest Star Wars film, imo.

It's Rebel Without a Cause, The Searchers, 1950's pulp scifi, Gone with the Wind, A Princess of Mars, Flash Gordon, and so many other things that I'm sure I'm not even aware of. Lucas took so many chances with this film, that in hindsight makes TPM and ROTS seem a lot more safe and commercial. Its plot is so much richer than that of TPM that it's really mind-boggling that anyone could prefer TPM over AOTC. From what I've gathered it comes down to the romance and an over-abundance of cgi.

Ok, I guess.

If you don't enjoy what Lucas is going for with the romance, you have to at least - I hope - appreciate the more focused narrative. TPM is meandering at times, and it doesn't feel as personal as Clones. You won't find any scene on par with the Tusken slaughter or Anakin's confession scene in TPM.

AOTC, I feel does a better job of developing its characters and gets to where it needs to go faster. It's also tonally more balanced than TPM and ROTS. For my money the last 45 minutes of that film is the most fun and exciting of any Star Wars film. I watch AOTC and I say to myself "THIS is Star Wars." Is it flawed? Yes. Is it as flawed as TPM? Heavens no. TPM being shot on film, having more real environments(which I'm not actually sure is true), and the duel with Maul do not come anywhere close to trumping AOTC's artistic boldness and more complex and personal storytelling.

I'm actually more baffled by AOTC's reputation trending downwards more than anything. It's alright though, I'll defend AOTC till I'm blue in the face, and probably haunt people about it after I die.

 

Here are a few quotes from George Lucas that I think people need to remember when they watch AOTC

“Let’s face it, their dialogue in that scene is pretty corny. It is presented very honestly, it isn’t tongue-in-cheek at all, and it’s really played to the hilt. But it is consistent not only with the rest of the movie, but with the overall Star Wars style. Most people don’t understand the style of Star Wars. They don’t get that there is an underlying motif that is very much like a nineteen thirties western or Saturday matinee serial. It’s in that more romantic period of making movies and adventure films. And this film is even more melodrama than the others.”

"It's not deliberately camp. I made the film in a 1930s style. It's based on a Saturday matinee serial from the 1930s, so the acting style is very 30s, very theatrical, very old-fashioned. Method acting came in in the 1950s and is very predominant today. I prefer to use the old style. People take it different ways, depending on their sophistication."

Also go watch Rebel Without a Cause if you want to really understand what Lucas was going for with Anakin. I'd always heard James Dean was his inspiration behind the Anakin character, but never truly knew what that meant until I finally watched all three James Dean films 3 months ago, but Rebel in particular gave me that 'eureka' moment where I finally fully understood Hayden's performance. His character is so awkward and reserved, but there's this quiet intensity there. I think Hayden does a great job of emulating those same traits.

 

I agree that AOTC being "the worst" seems to have taken on as the "established" perspective over the last few years - in the same way ESB took on the established title of "best" a decade or so ago. The substance of such views aside, I've become pretty weary of the way these dominant opinions seem to grow into almost being "fact". I always feel like there's a book being published somewhere called "The Proper Way to Like Star Wars" that everybody is reading but me.

 

I couldn't agree more with this, Qiv!!!

LOL!!!!!!!! That puts it nicely.


Great posts, but I don't quite agree with your burying TPM.

I see them as something of a pair, but I think it's true that AOTC has the most engrossing story of the PT.

It's quite impressive, I think, the scope of AOTC. I mean, it starts in a time of (fragmented) peace, and ends in all-out galactic civil war, covering conspiracy, romance, and personal tragedy in-between.

The locations are rich and varied, it's a beautifully colourful and picturesque film, and it has this wonderfully striking, implacable, dream-like tone. The characters and their motivations are at their most ambiguous here, I think, and there is a sense of melancholic dread undulating just beneath the surface.

Clones -----------------> it's a little weird, and it has every right to be, IMO.

 

I've actually enjoyed quite the renaissance with my evaluation of TPM. I think it's a worthy addition to the saga, but if I'm breaking both films down, other than visuals, I feel there is no aspect of TPM that is superior to AOTC.

 

Really? I like its voluminous, regal feel. And there is also something a little Dickensian about it. I like its balmy characters -- Jar Jar, Watto, Boss Nass, and for the little we see of him, Jabba -- and that soaring, fantasy construction. It has a sort of gauche, goofy edge that even AOTC can't quite touch, IMO.

Plus, its take on its characters, particularly Anakin, is so sound, that the other movies simply wouldn't mean half as much without it, in my view. "Anakin Skywalker, meet Obi-Wan Kenobi." There is something brilliantly understated about a lot of it. Like Lucas is saying, "watch out for much more of this in my next movie."

Very well-done, and if I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY had a to pick a favourite, gosh, I would probably go for TPM. But AOTC is one I respect tremendously (and ROTS).

 

It feels a little muddled at times and almost superfluous. It's a wonderful introductory chapter. It definitely has a tremendous sense of adventure, but there's a bit of detachment I feel while watching it. I don't feel caught up in the struggle. When it soars it really soars, but while it's more epic in some ways than Clones, I feel from an intellectual and artistic perspective it isn't nearly as ambitious. I think the scenes with Anakin and Padme are lacking from an acting perspective far more than their ill-reputed romance in AOTC. Natalie really does sleepwalk through those scenes, and I must say one of the most frustrating oversights by Lucas in that film is Padme's apparent disinterest in Anakin flying off into battle. She simply ignores his obvious peril, and orders her troops to march on. TPM does a great job of world-building, and is quite dazzling, but no, I can't really say other than those aspects that it does a single thing better than Clones...well, perhaps the editing isn't as choppy and the score is better incorporated, but really, other than a few technical things, it can't touch Clones in any capacity.

 

The only proper way to like SW is whatever way the individual chooses. Some people are 'loud' and 'insistent' they are 'right' but you don't have to heed them unless you choose to.

 

That's true, but a little knowledge about what the director is attempting might light one's way.

 

That's for the individual to decide though personally I agree.

 

That's fine. I agree that it isn't as ambitious as Clones in all respects. And Clones is better at taking me on a journey. In Clones, it really feels, to me, like the characters are working through something. Perhaps we do agree more than not.

What I consider quite admirable about TPM, however, is that it has a rich, ruminative quality, intertwined with its soaring, wondrous visuals. This isn't so apparent early on, but when they get to Tatooine, a more grounded quality takes hold, and I think TPM really begins to cook.

Also, I like that the main, "adult" characters, or quasi-adult, at least, aren't sure of their next move, necessarily. They're in uncertain territory and a furtive aspect colours their scenes. Even Watto retains a sense of world-weariness that he shares with Anakin ("Outlanders! They think they know everything..."), but not Qui-Gon. I find it quite intriguing; makes the whole Skywalker drama more textured and appealing, IMO.

It also has this kind of sad, doomed-utopia aspect to its story, which makes everything the characters go through in the next two installments more poignant, I think. There are no easy answers -- just flawed choices.

That's a rather surprising criticism, in my view. I refer you, on an acting level, back to my "furtive" remark. Natalie is underplaying it; her character is holding her emotions in. She shows some initial uncertainty, even anxiety, around Anakin, freshly arrived on his strange world, and later, as on the ship, attempts to offer solace, while trying to put her own troubles temporarily out of her mind. I find their bond, and the performances, quite fetching.

When Anakin powers up the N-1 fighter, moments later taking flight, we get a reaction shot from Padme that is one of surprise, even bewilderment. She clearly doesn't have time to ponder who might have been in that specific ship; nor time to worry over Anakin's fate. She is, after all, leading a group of people attempting to storm and take back the palace. Everyone has a particular focus -- a one-shot mission they're set on completing.

Also, realistically, what could Padme do? The craft had already lifted off, and she didn't appear to possess technology to bring it back, or to reprogram its auto-pilot setting.

Well, Menace is a transporting movie, and has a particular lyricism I like. I will say that Clones has an added intensity about it, and brilliant visual symbolism throughout, and is bold enough, and rich enough, to recommend. I'm just such a fan of the complete set of movies that, at the end of the day, I have trouble placing one so sharply over another.

 

There is much to be praised in TPM and I think you put it rather eloquently. Bravo!

When comparing films, the way I determine which film is superior - and this just isn't isolated to Star Wars - is I look at what each film is attempting to accomplish and how they ultimately achieve their respective goals in relation to the other. There's also obviously a subjectiveness that comes into play as well.

TPM certainly has an interesting story to tell. It takes you on a bit of a roller coaster ride, but in the middle it gets bogged down by somewhat lackluster detour to Tatooine - pod race not withstanding. The climax is very reminiscent of ROTJ and the denouement is quite chilling with Yoda's trepidation in Anakin becoming a Jedi and the insinuation that the Sith are very much still a threat. The glimmer of hope during the celebration doesn't shake the eerie feeling of dread that came before it.

It has plenty of merit, but it's story isn't nearly as gripping as Clones, in my estimation, because it doesn't take you on a personal journey. It's the difference between watching a basketball game in the cheap seats and watching it in the front row. TPM isn't an intimate story. It doesn't really invite the audience in like Clones does.

AOTC feels, in some ways, that it takes place in a different universe than TPM. It almost seems like a conscious decision on GL's part. There's a sense of uneasiness in the air at the beginning and of course ambiguity, which is manifested visually in a fog covered Coruscant. A great visual metaphor I might add, but I digress. Nothing is really certain other than Anakin is infatuated with Padme, who was briefly a surrogate mom to him in TPM(oedipus complex, ftw).The film has a dream-like quality as you've mentioned before, which adds a layer of surrealism that I much enjoy, especially being a fan of David Lynch. This film, unlike TPM is more of a character exploration. Anakin is coping with a multitude of issues. He's a fish out of water, who unlike other Jedi, was already able to form personal bonds with non-jedis, so being deprived of this, especially when he has now after all this time come face to face with someone he previously had platonic feelings for which have blossomed into romantic ones puts him at unease along with being dubbed "the chosen one" and being haunted by visions of his mothers demise.

The story takes you down a rabbit hole. Obiwan is off on his own noirish detective adventure, which is completely foreign to Star Wars, while Anakin is off performing The Sound of Music with Padme(not meant to sound back-handed). Some might say these moments are cumbersome and essentially break the film(speaking exclusively to the Naboo scenes), but to me, while they lack little commercial appeal they go a long way to deconstructing both Anakin and Padme. They're essential, because they're able to finally be themselves, without putting on their respective masks. They make the film, not break them.

TPM doesn't provide as intimate of a portrait. To me, everything is more surface based, you see glimpses of the depth underneath, but with AOTC you really get inside the characters heads. Granted Padme gets short-changed by her family ultimately being cut out of the film, but never-the-less her character is given more room to breathe and be herself in Clones.

You get to Tattooine and Lucas turns things up to 11. There isn't a single misstep. Anakin's heart-breaking reunion with his mom, and even the Watto reunion is quite deftly handled. Anakin's confession is absolutely chilling, and for me puts me at a bit of an emotional paradox. If I'm Anakin and I found my mom in the state she was in - obviously tortured and potentially raped - I would also be sent into a murderous frenzy. Did he go too far? Yes, of course, but through-out the Star Wars saga the Tusken Raiders have been portrayed as a menace to all, and one might argue from a certain point-of-view that Anakin's genocide was heroic.

AOTC has moral ambiguity. TPM, while obviously going for a more innocent angle, is very straightforward, where the choices are made clear for the viewer. Quigon is a hero. Anakin is an anti-hero and much harder to like or agree with. You have to be a more active participant as a viewer of Clones. There's more layers, more confusion. You don't automatically know good from evil.

I like that.

Then you get to the climax on Geonosis and the action is ramped up to a fun and necessary degree. It's hypnotic, and I very much enjoy 3PO's antics, which I realize I'm in the minority. My biggest complaint is the droid factory scene, and that's only because I feel Anakin should have rescued Padme. That would be more true to the knight/princess dynamic and also would have served to reinforce Padme's romantic feelings for Anakin, which I think casual movie-goers really needed.

TPM's battles didn't have the personal stakes, apart from Quigon's death, which for my money is Ewan's best acting in the prequels. You can really feel his rage and when the force-field dissipates and he has his first and only flirtation with the dark side. In AOTC, you have Jedi's being killed and the emotional toll that's taking on both Obiwan and Anakin. You see Boba Fett lament his father's death, and you also have inter-fighting between Anakin and Obiwan, where instead of relenting like he normally does, Anakin stand up for himself; consequences be damned. He's willing in that moment to sacrifice everything for Padme and only is brought back down to earth by Obiwan's retort "What do you think she would do if she were in your position?". Such a well-scripted and well-acted scene.

I feel the endings of both films are almost equally great, but this time Lucas goes for a less subtle approach painting the sky red, and revealing that no victory was obtained, and that the War, like Anakin's forbidden romance with Padme, is a doomed affair and will have far-reaching consequences for not only our heroes but the galaxy as a whole.

When I look at their commonalities it's pretty evident to me that AOTC mostly improves upon aspects where TPM faltered and at the same time takes Star Wars in a more fun and interesting direction.

Genuine concern is all I'm asking for. She says that she cares a great deal about him, but her actions in that scene and a lack of an emotional response make her words ring hollow.