Has Obi-Wan Stolen the Show?

The fact that Obi-wan told Yoda that he will train Anakin without the council's approval showed his arrogance

IIRC Qui-Gon did the same thing, yet so many people think he would have done it better.

and just because Obi-wan finished his training doesn't mean he was ready to take on an apprentice because he would need more time to adjust to being a Jedi Knight before he is capable of training his own padawan.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Given the age differential between Dooku and Qui-Gon, its safe to assume Dooku went straight into training. For all we know, it's standard operating procedure.

If Obi-wan trained Anakin well, then Anakin would never have gone Dark Side because he would have learned to control his emotions, keep cool in the face of danger, and he would have learned from his own mistakes so he would've turned out like Obi-wan did. Another thing, Dooku was 60 years past being Yoda's pupil while Anakin had just graduated to Knight status so this comparison doesn't count.

So, one minute you assume that the fall of any apprentice is the master's fault, then split hairs to exonerate Yoda. The comparison is a valid one for a specific reason: if you don't blame Yoda for Dooku, then you cannot automatically blame a master for the student's shortcomings. It used to be people split hairs because Anakin never made it to Jedi, which we now know he does. We can no longer say that a Jedi's fall is automatically the result of poor teaching, or that good teaching automatically prevents recedivism. Anakin is past being Obi-Wan's apprentice, regardless of how long, so his destiny is now his own.

Your reasoing is inconsistent here. Anakin, given proper training, would never turn, but another Jedi, given proper training, still could. So, a fall to the Dark Side is the master's fault, but only in this one case; all other are irrelevant. That sounds more like a rationalization for blaming Obi-Wan, than a sound conclusion. Kind of like Scalia's reasoning for ignoring Florida law, just for the 2000 election.

Instead, Anakin has to put up with Obi-wan's control-freakiness and be force to defy him to do what he thinks is right and whenever Anakin faces criticism from his master and peers, he looks up to Palpatine who is only corrupting his mind with false wisdom.

You admit that it's false wisdom coming from Palpatine and refuse to admit that Obi-Wan was doing his job by keeping him inline. It's not being a control freak, it's discipline. And Anakin's impulsiveness is based more on his own hormones and lack of judgment than his own feeling of right and wrong. He is an apprentice, which means he serves others, instead of making up orders of his own, which place in danger the one he is charged with protecting.

If Anakin is acting like a spoiled brat and on the verge of going Dark Side, then that means that Obi-wan is doing something wrong.

That means Anakin is a typical teenaager. He made it all the way to Jedi Knight, which means he did not spend a decade and a half on the verge of turning to the Dark Side. When he turns, that means he is doing something wrong. Anakin made it to Jedi Knight. That is the measure of Obi-Wan's mentoring.

 

"IIRC Qui-Gon did the same thing, yet so many people think he would have done it better."

But his reasons for wanting to train Anakin is out of desperation, not arrogance. Qui-Gon knows that the Sith have returned after his encounter with Darth Maul and the Council was foolish to ignore his warnings so for that, it resulted in Qui-Gon's death.

"Assumes facts not in evidence. Given the age differential between Dooku and Qui-Gon, its safe to assume Dooku went straight into training. For all we know, it's standard operating procedure."

I don't think it works that way. I mean, once you've completed your Jedi training you automatically recieve your own apprentice? That's totally unrealistic. A jedi should have some time to themselves and learn from other teachers on how to train their students before they could adopt their own student.

"So, one minute you assume that the fall of any apprentice is the master's fault, then split hairs to exonerate Yoda. The comparison is a valid one for a specific reason: if you don't blame Yoda for Dooku, then you cannot automatically blame a master for the student's shortcomings."

There is a difference between being responsible for your own actions and being a victim of someone else's actions. Dooku was already an accomplished Jedi Master(who should be at a retirement home for senior citizens) when he went Dark Side so it was his own fault when he fell and Yoda trained thousands of Jedi before he got to Dooku so his successes outweigh his only failure. Obi-wan only had 1 apprentice which was Anakin and we know what becomes of him so his fall was Obi-wan's fault because he was too inexperineced at training Jedi.

"It used to be people split hairs because Anakin never made it to Jedi, which we now know he does. We can no longer say that a Jedi's fall is automatically the result of poor teaching, or that good teaching automatical prevents recedivism. Anakin is past being Obi-wan's apprentice, regardless of how long, so his destiny is now his own."

Your right. A Jedi's fall is the result of being tainted by the Dark Side before becoming a Knight and that the teacher did nothing to motivate their student into rejecting the Dark Side. If Obi-wan couldn't reach Anakin when it happened, then it shows that he was a poor teacher.

"Your reasoning is inconsistent here. Anakin, given proper training, would never turn, but another Jedi, given proper training, still could. So, a fall to the Dark Side is the master's fault, but only in this one case; all other are irrelevant. That sounds more like a rationalization for blaming Obi-wan, than a sound conclusion. Kind of like Scalia's reasoning for ignoring Florida law, just for the 2000 election."

Obi-wan himself believes that it's his fault that Anakin turned and if another Jedi had already reached the level of "Jedi Master" by the time they've succumbed to the Dark Side, then poor teaching and lack of proper training had nothing to do with why it happened. Anakin had already been tainted by the Dark Side before he became a Jedi Knight so Obi-wan's poor teaching, Palpatine's interference in the training, and Anakin's lack of judgement are what caused him to turn.

"You admit that it's false wisdom coming from Palpatine and refuse to admit that Obi-wan was doing his job by keeping him inline. It's not being a control freak, it's discipline."

But Obi-wan overdid his discipline on Anakin and that is what's pushing Ani closer to Palpatine.

"And Anakin's impulsiveness is based on his own hormones and lack of judgement than his own feeling of right and wrong. He is an apprentice, which means he serves others, instead of making up orders of his own, which place in danger the one he is charged with protecting."

But if the person he's protecting decides to put themselves in harm's way then it's their fault, not Anakin's because they made the choice.

"That means Anakin is a typical teenaager. He made it all the way to Jedi Knight, which means he did not spend a decade and a half on the verge of turning to the Dark Side. When he

 

its time to hear the sad,sad truth;yes,but face it;...ewan's just 2 damn sexy 2 not steal the show

 

This discussion is interesting, but please, there really are quite a few discussions on who's responsible for Anakin's fall. I'm sure you can find one of those if you're interested in discussing that. The intention of this thread, however, is to simply discuss the role of the character of Obi-Wan in the saga and different people's perspectives on that and how those might have changed with the PT.

dominos, welcome to the boards

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

If he had, then GL would re-name the films.

Episode I: Obi Wan Kenobi and the Phantom Menace
Episode II: Obi Wan Kenobi and the Attacking Clones
Episode III: Obi Wan Kenobi Pushes his best friend into Lava
Episode IV: Obi Wan Kenobi and the New Hope
Episode V: The Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi and the Striking Empire
Episode VI: The Ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi and the Return of the Jedi.

So clearly he has yet to steal the show.

But I do see what your saying, to a point.
The fact is that he is a strong character that is in each film. Alec and Ewan both do a great job with the character. He is an interesting man with a sad story. He is elegant and eloquent and so few characters in the Saga are. I think he is the most quotable character. He has some good lines. He can be comic and serious at the same time.

In the end it is Anakin's story...but that does not mean we don't get to enjoy watching Obi.

-Seldon

 

Episode III: Obi Wan Kenobi Pushes his best friend into Lava

Hoi, no spoilers

 

DamonD: Pure speculation I know no spoilers.

 

Why would GL have to rename the titles that? Afterall, the name "Anakin Skywalker" never appears in any of the titles and, up to this point, he's not even referenced in any of the titles

Another thing I wanted to bring up is the concept of the hero trio in all the films. In the OT it's clearly Luke, Leia, and Han throughout. What about the PT? You can clearly say it's Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan in AOTC, but what about TPM? Does the trio thing not hold true there, or does it?

More importantly, I wonder what people think about the relationships between Luke/Han and Anakin/Obi-Wan and if anyone thinks there are parallels there.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

solojones: it was a joke. If Obi-Wan had stolen the show they would rename the films after him.

The trio for PT is Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan.
Qui-Gonn takes the Obi-Wan Kenobi place of the OT.
Qui is not part of the trio but the guide and wise man of the original film.

-Seldon

 

Another thing I wanted to bring up is the concept of the hero trio in all the films. In the OT it's clearly Luke, Leia, and Han throughout. What about the PT? You can clearly say it's Anakin, Padme, and Obi-Wan in AOTC, but what about TPM? Does the trio thing not hold true there, or does it?

More importantly, I wonder what people think about the relationships between Luke/Han and Anakin/Obi-Wan and if anyone thinks there are parallels there.


Well the Trio Team and the love triangle are two very different things. Trios are very popular in adventure fantasy. Harry/Hermione/Ron - HP to mention a popular one. Luke/Leia/Han also qualifies. Anakin/Obi-Wan/Padme is only partly a trio because while Anakin is connected to the other two characters, Padme and Obi-Wan seem to be disconnected from each other. It just barely qualifies. Qui-Gon/Anakin/Padme in TPM was a more cogent TPM because that relationship was really a three-way one.

Going back to the topic, I would say that Obi-Wan has definitely stolen the show because the PT seems to be written to put him in the fore front. It is clear even from the headliners in the movie - Ewan's name comes first in all the films but Part One and there he was second only to Liam Neeson. Ben Kenobi was a very powerful force in the Original Trilogy so it is understandable why George wanted to put so much focus on him in the PT.

 

The order in which actors names come up at the end of the film have nothing to do with the importance of the character (though it does have some effect)

That is really the agent's decision.
The agent for Ewan could demand he gets to have his name appear first in the credits for AOTC.

-Seldon

 

I think there's definitely a Padme/Obi-Wan relationship, i mean she risks her life to go on a (pretty) foolish & totally uncoordinated rescue-mission just to save his life.

Obi-Wan jumps out of a window in the middle of Coruscant to go after her assassin while that was not implied in his mandate (i think).

In TPM they barely exchanged any dialogue but i think there was a certain level of respect and admiration built up there. Obi-Wan managed to defeat the evil Darth Maul and Padme took the battle headon with the Trade Federation.

Plus, Palpatine refers to Obi-Wan as "an old friend" of hers.

 

Well we all know very well that George Lucas has always done whatever he felt like with his films. Besides Ewan MacGregor was not that big a star before Episode 1. I won't say he ranks among the league of actors who can dictate to the film producer/director/creator. Plus there were dozens of actors who would have been thrilled to play Ben Kenobi in the PT.

*I think there's definitely a Padme/Obi-Wan relationship, i mean she risks her life to go on a (pretty) foolish & totally uncoordinated rescue-mission just to save his life.
Obi-Wan jumps out of a window in the middle of Coruscant to go after her assassin while that was not implied in his mandate (i think). *

If you look at it closely, Padme chooses to rescue Obi-Wan for Anakin's sake. I think that at that point in time, so soon after Anakin lost his motherbecause of his duties, she was just fed up with the Jedi and their unreasonable orders and she didn't want Anakin to lose another parent... Obi-Wan was just doing his job. He had already made it clear that he did not trust her... They must have spoken all of four words to each other in tpm so Palpatine calling them close friends doesn't really mean anything. I think Palpatine was implying Anakin without trying to be too obvious about it.

I'm not saying that Padme and Obi-Wan are enemies, just that they seem to lead entirely seperate lives in the films. You can't say the same for Luke/Leia/Han or Harry/Ron/Hermione.

 

There is no relationship.
If you watched the films you would realize how loyal Obi is to the Jedi Order and its rules. That is what makes him so different from Anakin!
Yes I agree Padme goes to rescue him for Anakin.
And Obi went after the droid because his mandate was to protect her, and at the moment the droid was putting her in possible risk. He was following the mandate by the Council.

-Seldon

 

Besides Ewan MacGregor was not that big a star before Episode 1.

Not that big of a star in America anyway. He was already a huge star in Britain though because of Trainspotting mostly and a handful of other indie films. But no, generally, he was not a big star. The press still associates him with Star Wars which is stupid but understandable for their ignorance. They're only interested in Blockbusters. But still today at least half of my fellow classmates in high school have no idea who Ewan is by name.

As for the relationship between Padmé and Obi-Wan, I definitely think it's a hard thing to read. On one hand, I'm sure Padmé feels grateful to him for having helped save her planet in TPM. It seems like she has this kind of vague idea of being 'friends' with him just because he's someone she wouldn't like to see die. They're more accquaintances, IMHO. At least at the time of AOTC. Obi-Wan protects her because it's his job and because he likes to protect people

I can see where you could argue the PT Trio isn't as much of a trio as the OT one. In the OT, I pretty much care about all of the main three characters equally (I like Han the best, but I care about all of them equally). In the PT, I don't feel as though Padmé has nearly as important of a role as Anakin or Obi-Wan.

I'm not sure, though, that the PT is really structured to make Obi-Wan the main character... He's at the beginning of TPM because the audience needs a familiar name right off the bat (which is why Qui-Gon lets us know right up front who Obi-Wan is by name). But once Anakin appears, Obi-Wan disappears from TPM for quite a while (which always bugs me, incidentally...)

They're kind of equal as far as screen time goes in AOTC, but as I've stated, I have noticed that myself and many people feel more attached to Obi-Wan's story anyway. Perhaps many of us feel as though he's more the main character because he's the more identifyable "good guy" character. I'm sure RotS is going to have a pretty bleak ending, so we have to have someone left to root for who's still (despite his faults) worth rooting for, I suppose.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

i really think that obi takes center stage during the escape from Naboo, when he goes over to rescue the pilots, and says I got it.

Obi-Wan plays the Luke Skywalker role from tesb in aotc, and if you look closely there are more parallels between obi & luke than anakin & luke.

 

I actually could care less for Anakin in the films.
I care for what happens to Obi-Wan and Padme. I think it has to do with the fact that I know what happens in the end. That I know Padme and Obi-Wan are good people and that Anakin becomes Vader.
I think Obi-Wan is the one most everyone cares for.

Ewan is a great actor, if you don't think so watch
Big Fish, he was great in it.

-Seldon

 

I agree. I hate to get into any GL or HC bashing, but I think OB1 is the favorite for two reasons. First, because he is just cool. Secondly, the actors protraying him dwarf any others around them (atleast by AOTC). I was personally very disappointed in Anakin and the way he was portrayed. I remember as kid thinking about what Anakin would be like as a Jedi and I always thought of a dashing young hero that had a somewhat buddy/buddy relationship with OB1 who got caught up in the wrong crowd. Relatively speaking. Instead, we got a very whiny teenager without, and lets be honest here, many redeeming qualities.

But anyway, back to OB1. I was watching ANH last night and there is one scene that I think is incredible. When Ben, Luke, and the droids are in Mos Eisley and Ben uses the Jedi mind trick to get by the stormtroopers, the expression on his face is classic. It is a mix of amusement, disdain, and laid back confidence at how weak minded the stormtroopers are. The acting is incredible and I think it lends to creedence to OB1's former arrogance. The character as a whole is well-rounded, confident, loyal, mysterious, and just flawed enough to make him human, unlike some other characters that are TOO flawed as to be unbelievable and annoying.

 

*I'm not sure, though, that the PT is really structured to make Obi-Wan the main character... He's at the beginning of TPM because the audience needs a familiar name right off the bat (which is why Qui-Gon lets us know right up front who Obi-Wan is by name). But once Anakin appears, Obi-Wan disappears from TPM for quite a while (which always bugs me, incidentally...)*

Actually George Lucas said before TPM was launched that the prequels will be told from Obi-Wan's perspective. The prequels might be Anakin's story but the narrator of the story is Obi-Wan....
Strangely enough, although I am not a big Padme fan, even though I like her character more than I did Leia's, I find myself more interested in what happens to her in the films, especially in Episode 3 than I do about either Anakin or Obi-Wan. Maybe because she's so much a new SW character, we didn't even know Luke and Leia's mom's name until TPM, maybe because what happened to her between the PT and the OT is such a big mystery, maybe because she was not at all what I expected Mrs Vader to be. I thought Anakin Skywalker's wife would be a gentle lady... shy, retiring, in the shadow of her husband... now I see something completely different. I do not *like* her as much as Obi-Wan or Anakin, but I definitely find myself most *curious* about her....

*They're kind of equal as far as screen time goes in AOTC, but as I've stated, I have noticed that myself and many people feel more attached to Obi-Wan's story anyway. Perhaps many of us feel as though he's more the main character because he's the more identifyable "good guy" character. I'm sure RotS is going to have a pretty bleak ending, so we have to have someone left to root for who's still (despite his faults) worth rooting for, I suppose. *

No, actually they don't. If you watch TPM and AotC very carefully, most of Anakin's scenes are shared - first with Qui-Gon, then with Padme or with Obi-Wan in some way or the other... he does not get enough *independent* character development screen time as Obi-Wan. In the films, Anakin's character is very much a supporting character, no matter how important it actually is in the story.

 

I posted this in who is the mc of the saga, and I figure this a good spot to repost:

It's Obviously Obi-Wan:




Ep 1. Obi-Wan goes from being a pawadan to becoming a Jedi Knight, watches his former master die, and takes on a Padawan.

Ep 2. We see the difficulties Obi-Wan has in training his brass padawan. We further watch Obi-Wan's investigations, and watch as he discover's something much bigger, a galactic civil war.

Ep. 3. See's Obi's padawan fall, and how he must take care of him, hot lava style.

Ep. 4 Obi-Wan is called into the service of the galaxy again; he also takes on a new padawan, the son of his former padawan.

Ep. 5 Although a ghost, we watch Obi ensures his last padawan's jedi education continues, by his first teacher.

Ep. 6 Sees Obi-Wan reveal truths to his padawan Luke, and sees the redemption of his first padawan.




So it is right there, clearly the story of Obi-Wan, who can argue w/ those facts

 

Still love you, Ghost_Jedi. You can definitely make an argument for SW being Obi-Wan's story... from a certain point of view

I like the point that it's Anakin's story but Obi-Wan is the narrator. And because of that, there is the possibility of the narrator becoming more interesting than the person he's talking about.

Really I think Star Wars is a story of good and evil, and Anakin is the example of someone caught between chosing good and chosing evil. Then you have the two main, constant figures of good and evil in the saga- Obi-Wan and Palpatine- vying for Anakin.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

***Really I think Star Wars is a story of good and evil, and Anakin is the example of someone caught between chosing good and chosing evil. Then you have the two main, constant figures of good and evil in the saga- Obi-Wan and Palpatine- vying for Anakin***

Well, I like Obi-Wan very much but I don't think he actually comes into the picture as the *Light* side for Anakin or even Luke. I see him as a man who also has his own journey, his own handicaps but not as Perfect Saint Obi-Wan. If anyone in the films should be the Saint, I think it is Qui-Gon Jinn and that is why it is so symbolic that he died at teh end of Phantom Menace, because if he had trained Anakin, everything would have turned out differently. I know a lot of people don't completely agree with this but all I can say is that it would have been very hard for Qui-Gon to have beat Obi-Wan's record where Anakin was concerned. ::wink:::
I like Obi very much but I see him as a *complete* character, with his strengths - his loyalty, his will, his self-discipline - and his weaknesses - his inability to think outside the Jedi mindset, his selfish, and again, his will because like in the case with Luke, he was using it to bend Anakin's son to kill him. Obi-wan is extraordinary, magnificent and terrible in his strength of will... but he is not a siant...

 

I'd say yes.

Of course, generally we know that the entire saga is about Anakin, his fall and redemption. But we have learnt about it gradually, step by step. In OT times it wasn't that clear. So we (or at least some of us) considered Luike,Leia, Han as the main hereoes (so I agree with the idea of trios). But even then it was Han Solo who gained more viewers sympathy than the expected-to-be-central-character Luke Skywalker.

So probably the history is repeating. Skywalker is the main "theme" or "topic", while his "friend" is the closest to us.

I think it's partially based on sth like "human" factor - Skywalker are chosen ones, they are Force offsprings, etc., some kind of superheroes, while Solo and Kenobi are more ordinary, more humorous and human.

And two things more: 1) I think that both of them - Ford and McGregor - are better acotrs than most of his partners. 2) Yes, I guess they are both sexiest male characters in saga.

But, given that Obi1 takes part in more episodes than Solo and has bigger impact on the whole story, finally he has good chances for winning the contest.


And besides, I guess my signature explains everything.

 

'I can see where you could argue the PT Trio isn't as much of a trio as the OT one.'

I believe this is done so on purpose by GL. It deals with one of his main theme's trough all of his films. If we want to be free, we have to work together, as a whole, for mutual advantage. The PT is a tragedy. The darkside is stronger (quoted by GL) and people are more stiff and afraid to show who they really are. The OT presents us these much more 'wild' or 'loose' characters who 'live', argue, scream; they show their good and bad sides without being ashamed of it. The emotions which are forbidden in the PT, are brought out in te OT.

But to return to the topic, I prefer Anakin's character above any other, I believe he's the central character. This will become much more transparent after Episode III. I feel his character arc is more complex than Obi Wan's and therefore more difficult to 'grasp', especially in the way the story has been brought to us: the chapter which is vital and most important to the understanding of his character in the complete Saga is episode III, and it's the last episode brought to us. (interesting ) So I believe many people who find him whiny or don't like him that much in AOTC and TPM will rediscover him after ROTS, because he owns that one, but now I?m on spoiler ground...

 

**'I can see where you could argue the PT Trio isn't as much of a trio as the OT one.'

I believe this is done so on purpose by GL. It deals with one of his main theme's trough all of his films. If we want to be free, we have to work together, as a whole, for mutual advantage. The PT is a tragedy. The darkside is stronger (quoted by GL) and people are more stiff and afraid to show who they really are. The OT presents us these much more 'wild' or 'loose' characters who 'live', argue, scream; they show their good and bad sides without being ashamed of it. The emotions which are forbidden in the PT, are brought out in te OT. **

That is a very wonderful way of looking at things and I have to say I agree with a lot of what you said.

**But to return to the topic, I prefer Anakin's character above any other, I believe he's the central character. This will become much more transparent after Episode III. I feel his character arc is more complex than Obi Wan's and therefore more difficult to 'grasp', especially in the way the story has been brought to us: the chapter which is vital and most important to the understanding of his character in the complete Saga is episode III, and it's the last episode brought to us. (interesting ) So I believe many people who find him whiny or don't like him that much in AOTC and TPM will rediscover him after ROTS, because he owns that one, but now I?m on spoiler ground... **

Donot get me wrong, I like Anakin almost as much as I like Obi-Wan and I also think Anakin's arc is just as complex. Like I said before, the story is *about* Ankain with Obi-Wan as a narrator, and sometimes as a facillator, for good and for evil..

Okay I did this for fun in response to what GhostJedi wrote about Obi-Wan being the star of SW. Just for fun, I am not trying to make anyone feel bad, please.

***Ep 1. Obi-Wan goes from being a pawadan to becoming a Jedi Knight, watches his former master die, and takes on a Padawan(=Anakin).

Ep 2. We see the difficulties Obi-Wan has in training his brass Padawan(=Anakin). We further watch Obi-Wan's investigations, and watch as he discover's something much bigger, a galactic civil war.

Ep. 3. See's Obi's Padawan(=Anakin) fall, and how he must take care of him, hot lava style.

Ep. 4 Obi-Wan is called into the service of the galaxy again; he also takes on a New Padawan(=Anakin's son Luke), the son of his former Padawan(=Anakin).

Ep. 5 Although a ghost, we watch Obi ensures his last New Padawan's(=Anakin's son Luke) jedi education continues, by his first teacher.

Ep. 6 Sees Obi-Wan reveal truths to his New Padawan(=Anakin's son Luke) Luke, and sees the redemption of his first Padawan(=Anakin). ***

So it is right there, clearly the story of Obi-Wan, who can argue w/ those facts

I just did.