ST Has TFA started an adult-oriented Star Wars trend?

I would use the word "dark" relatively to describe the Star Wars films. Because I would say that the second half of ROTS is the only part of the saga that is truly dark.

As someone said, it's about tone, not number of deaths. And to that end, I don't think any of the films are dark as a whole. All of them have their silly moments and their serious moments. But so do films like Lion King. I would say that ESB, of the originals, was definitely the darkest. The whole film had the heroes on the run. Luke was being trained for a confrontation where it was being drilled into him that there was the risk of falling to the Dark Side. Luke suffers defeat by Vader and finds out that one of the evilest people in the Galaxy is his father. The heroes lose Han.

Lucas has said that the line "there is another [hope]" (said by Yoda) wasn't specifically referring to anyone in particular at the time he wrote it into the script, and that he included it to suggest that Luke could fail and was expendable. Although the other "hope" became Leia, retroactively in ROTJ.

But throughout the whole movie, it was basically the heroes losing.

I would say that of the saga, it is the most consistently dark in tone.

But the second half of ROTS, when the hero falls and becomes the villain and it turns into a tale of betrayal, I would say that is the darkest part of the saga, though the first half of the film was fairly light hearted.

I would say that there's always been a segment of the population that likes the more "adult oriented" stuff. I use that phrase loosely, because by "adults" I would also include kids in the 12-13+ age group. I'm basically just excluding really young kids. KOTOR and KOTOR II were some wildly successful games, and I'd say they didn't cater to young kids much. There were silly moments and humor, as there has been in every single film, but it wasn't juvenile and didn't target really young audiences like Lucas had done with the Ewoks and Gungans. KOTOR II in particular was pretty dark, and I'd even say virtually humorless.

I think it all has a place in the Star Wars universe. The silly stuff (I expect the Han Solo spinoff to be silly), as well as the relentlessly dark stuff like Anakin's fall. I would say there is a sweet spot that lies somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, though perhaps closer to the adult side of things. I think, if anything, TFA showed that catering to the older fans (via nostalgia) was an extremely smart move, as those older fans then take their families, and the kids like it too. And then you have fans that run out and see it several times. I mean, I think the kids are easier to please. My girlfriend has a nephew that is 2 years old, and when his father was watching TFA, the kid is standing in front of the TV making lightsaber sounds. I don't think Star Wars needs to be excessively silly to appeal to the kids.

 

Star Wars has no Dark films. They have some films that are a touch darker than other Star Wars films. None of them are dark, compared to what is and has been out there. ROTS and TFA are PG 13, for heaven's sake, and that's the heaviest rating of all seven. P for parental, G for guidance, 13 for unenforced PG rating that supposedly does not admit someone under 13 without parent, created in the aftermath of a Gremlin being microwaved into a splattering pulp in front of all the kiddes at the matinee.

The goriest and unsettling part (in my opinion) of the entire saga so far was Anakin doing his Darth Crispy thing on Mustafar and letting Obi-wan know how he feels about him. The most horrendous thing of the saga so far (in my opinion) was Kylo skewering Han, his father.

So ROTS and TFA have some dark moments. Even ROTJ gets a bit darker near the end in juxtaposition with the Emperor / Vader / Luke confrontation and Ewoks putting Stormtroopers out of commission with rocks.

No goofy cartoon character stepped in poo in TFA, and no furry little Ewoks boinked themselves with their own slingshots. Other than that, it seemed right down the line with the broad appeal of all Star Wars movies, no of which are dark movies compared to actual dark movies.

 

There is no standard definition that I am aware of that defines "dark" and "light" tones. There aren't any criteria that can be measured to deem something dark. The terms seems to be used relatively much of the time. This film is darkER than that one. Or this one was lightER. This one was the darkEST.

Usually if I'm going to use the term in an absolute sense, it's either because I feel it's understood that I'm only comparing Star Wars films at the exclusion of other films, or because I'm referring to something I feel would be hard to dispute. Dumb and Dumber is a light movie. These Final Hours is a dark movie. I have no real way of proving either of those statements, but I can't imagine anybody would really challenge me on either claim. The prior is a silly comedy. The latter is an end of the world movie where everyone dies and they know their deaths are coming the entire duration of the film.

Still, such claims are subjective.

And I don't believe it has anything to do with the ratings. You could have a serious, depressing, dark movie without ever crossing a line that requires an R rating.

 

Relative to say Apocalypse Now there are no truly dark SW films I'd agree but I would say that relative to your typical blockbuster yes there certainly are although equally I think that's partly a product of the era, Jaws and Close Encounters for example aren't exactly inline with your typical 80's blockbuster fare either.

The Ewoks in ROTJ definitely represent a shift towards a lighter "80's" style that I think differs considerably from the humour elsewhere in the OT that's a lot more caustic. However I still think ROTJ overall is a considerably darker or at least more serious film than TFA is because it keeps its lightness confined to the Endor plot and plays much of the rest(bar a few moments on Tatoonie) just as seriously as ESB did.

TFA for me really fails to replicate that caustic humour of the OT, its character humour feels like a mix of the goofier Ewok scenes and winking meta jokes. Unlike the Ewoks though I'd say this humour runs though most of the film being one of the factors in it having considerably less gravitas than the OT. The basic plot of TFA certainly had the potential to be considerably more serious but I don't think the film overall delivered on this and was IMHO only "more adult" in terms of being heavily focused on nostalgia aimed at adults and you could argue a casual adult market who are less interested in blockbusters on depth than younger geekier audinces

 

I'm not sure it was appease as much as it was a deliberate attempt to return to an aesthetic and style more in line with ANH and ESB. A lot of fans (myself) vastly prefer that. Other do not. So it goes.

 

Some Star Wars are more children-"safe" (EP I and II comes to mind), while others are darker.

TFA is as dark as it gets with a son killing his father. And cast members are all saying EP VIII will be even darker.

I'm all in for a darker SW world.

 

Also "dark" != "adult".

As an aside, I was about 4 or 5 when I saw ESB for the first time. I didn't get a sense of impending doom. I still don't. I think mileage really varies on that movie.

 

I don't agree with the notion that either ANH or ESB were really "dark." You could argue ESB was more mature, and narratively and thematically, it was a nadir in the original trilogy, but "dark" is a stretch. And ANH is certainly not dark. Also, I agree with the poster above that dark =/= "adult."

I also don't want to treat the original SW movie like it was somehow inherently more "adult" (I think it was developed with kids in mind for sure). And I find it a stretch to call the original spirit of SW either "darker" or more "adult" than the most recent releases before TFA, even if we agree that ESB was either of those.

 

I think it's more 'modern' orientated rather than 'adult'. It made no effort to be timeless and was instead going for the typical self-aware 'wisecracking' approach which will date it very quickly. I think trying to distance itself from the stuffy prequels meant they missed all the muck coming from the other direction. It's all very 'cliquey', either you are in or you're not.

 

I disagree completely with that. First of all, it's not really "modern" in many ways that the OT wasn't except for maybe the dialogue (which is just more generalistic, as opposed to the slightly stilted dialogue from the previous films. And I don't think that the humor (it's also the funniest SW movie to date actually) "dates it" at all, and the callbacks don't suddenly become less cute (if you find them as such) with age. And it isn't any more "dark" than ANH for me (I just rewatch both recently) and it's certainly not as dark as either ESB or ROTS.

And people need to stop with this whole "oh only audience members who don't appreciate depth in their blockbusters like this" crap. Guess what, many "stuffy elitists" movie critics who often are not fond of genre films like this, liked this movie.

 

I agree with you Thrawn082, since every single Star Wars movie is a blockbuster (every one is in the top grossing movies of all time) that argument would imply no Star Wars movie has depth, and we know that's not true.

I would also say that while I do think Star Wars is lighthearted for the most part, I wouldn't characterize the Saga as a whole as funny per se. It's got jokes, but that doesn't make them funny.

 

In my opinion, too many confuse narrative complexity with depth. A movie with a complex plot isn't necessarily "deep," it might just a complex mess. And film with a relatively straight-forward plot can never-the-less have some "depth."

 

I think that TFA is about as "broad-spectrum" as it gets, SW-wise. It doesn't overtly pander to particular age/demographics in theme or substance, as some of the earlier movies did, at least in part.

Personally, if I absolutely had to define a SW movie as dark, it would be ANH, if only because of its "down to business" approach to the plotline; you can really feel the sense of urgency from the opening sequence and throughout the movie. What makes that particularly impressive to me as the lack of initial exposition as to what's happening in the opening scenes...we're just sort of thrown into something, and the movie carries itself without an obvious instance where a scene is set up to "tell the tale". Sure, there's a light or witty moment, but it never lets off the gas in regards to this feeling of "I've got something to say, and it's serious business".

For all its faults, TFA did a pretty decent juggling act in its welcoming to fans old and new, and varying its emotional tone throughout. If it's polarizing, it's perhaps because it didn't give everyone exactly what they wanted every second, but that's more a product of where we are as a society anymore, methinks.

As always, IMHO.

 

The prequel trilogy was way more "adult" (poor toilet humor attempts/Jar Jar aside) than the Force Awakens. I thought the new movie really did recapture the magic

 

Kylo's "The droid, stole a freighter" makes me chuckle every time.

You're just not expecting a villain, with his vader suit voice, to be sarcastic like that lol

 

When I hear that, I think "that is Han Solo if he were a Sith Lord type bad guy".

 

Yep I'd certainly agree with this, I think there's a strong tendency in modern blockbusters to try and undercut emotion and gravitas in general for fear of being viewed as taking themselves too seriously akin to the prequels or the matrix sequels and TFA very much follows it.

As I said I think most of the humour besides Endor in the OT tended towards either being rather caustic or of the gallows variety, you had a few lighter moments with R2 and 3PO but even then there was often an edge to it. The effect was that whilst yes the films were often funny it was rarely at the cost of the credibility of the story, TFA on the other hand for me is a mix of humour that's either too goofy or too meta and damages the credibility of the story.

 

I think the series has walked the fine line between being humorous without going into outright comedy. We'll have to see how that plays forward, since the new movie has promised to be darker than TFA (which honestly wasn't that dark in my opinion; while some awful things happen, the movie knew how to keep a hope in the background, different from Revenge of the Sith -- the darkest movie in the series -- were we see everything go down hill, with very little hope left by the end).

Given that George Lucas has always said that the original movies were made as kids stories* (which is why I find complaints that the prequels were too kid-orientated hysterically funny), there's always been the family-friendly orientation to the series, and one I hopes continues into the future. It it possible to do generally positive movies/TV that have a good balance of darker drama but balance with humor and lighter elements (e.g. many of the Marvel movies, the Nick TMNT TV show, the previous Star Wars movies).

*Before you accuse me of debasing the movies, let me say that C.S. Lewis made an astute observation that the best kids stories are the ones that are also enjoyed by adults, whether the adults be new readers or the kids grown up.

 

Agreed. There's very little of that cynical modern banter you get in lots of blockbusters these days. Rather, the dialogue is very earnest and sometimes dorky. With that same aw shucks vibe that ANH had. In that sense, it feels quite old-fashioned. Despite this myth some fans are promoting that it feels more MCU than GFFA, Abrams did an excellent job of capturing the optimistic spirit and tone of Star Wars.

 

Yes, I suppose that from a certain point of view (as Obi Wan would say !), you are correct. The PT has a lot of complex politics and betrayal that only an adult would fully understand.

On the surface, though, I still think the PT (except EP III) is more safe for our Jedi younglings. TFA has one specific scene that I would not feel comfortable explaining to children.

 

I was very surprised that RedLetterMedia liked it as much as they did.

 

Dark ...Light...Light...Dark...so and so dies...so and so turns... these individual events do not show whether a film is one or the other. Terminator is the quintisential dark movie..It's filled with doom...a forboding feeling of dread and even in victory there's little relief. T2 on the other hand was significantly lighter... the bad guy was badder, the plot more complex, the carnage more graphic but still tons lighter...
As for TFA....I've see baby-wipes ads which were darker...Ok Han is killed by his son...terrible ! but does that instill a feeling of dread..hopelessness..noir?....Nope!

 

It's not a myth, it is an opinion. There is a difference.

 

ROTS is a depressing movie at times, with the Jedi being massacred, Anakin marching on the temple - killing the younglings, and the final battle on Mustafar. Lots of darkness there.

 

Actually, I think some of the MCU is in tone with Star Wars. While Guardians of the Galaxy was meant to be an out and out comedy, a lot of them, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Avengers, Age of Ultron, Iron Man 1 and 3, even Ant-Man have a balance between keeping the stakes and drama up, so that we're invested in what happens (heck, Iron Man 3 and Ant-Man made us care and be indignant when a Dora the Explorer watch and an ant were destroyed by the bad guys!). But, there's also humor to keep things from getting too tense. Case in point, in Civil War, the airport fight landed the balance exactly, so the drama of watching a team we like fall apart (with favorite characters on both sides, in many viewer's cases, I'm sure; I know that was the case for me) is there, but we've given license to enjoy watching the nifty things that unfold through the humor that's brought to the scene (I'm sure it's no accident that the movie's special guest-stars are really only featured in that part of the movie).

So, I'd say that it's more that the MCU feels like the GFFA more than anything, and that's actually a good thing, in my opinion.