Has the law swung too much in favor of protecting children?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Duckman, Aug 8, 2002.

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  1. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    First let me state that this topic is in no way intended to condone the abuse of children. I think molestors are sick (.) who should all be castroated. Neither am I going to suggest we should return to the "good old days" when children were seen and not heard and sent to work down coalmines and such. But I am concerned than in our rabid pursuit of those we think may harm children, we seem to be forgetting that children can also harm us!

    I'll illustrate this with an example from my own observations. Where I live, the police station has a special child porn unit. All well and good, I want those sickos caught too. But there have been several cases where the police have arrested people or confiscated items just because someone was in possession of nude art books which feature children (books which are available at most specialist book stores).
    At the same time, our neighborhood is overrun with child gangs (some no more than twelve years old) who stay out late vandalizing property and threatening local people. And the same police force does nothing to stop them! It seems they would rather spend all day lookie for kiddie porn on the Internet rather than protect local people from intimidation.
    I'm not saying we should have armed police round up all the local children and throwing them in the brig. But I think there should be some balance.

    How do y'all feel about this?
  2. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Well, I think in lew of the Catholic Priest fiasco, it's pretty scary that innocent men can now be so easily blackmailed by children threatening to tell someone he molested them. I heard about such a case on the radio a few weeks ago. Some teacher the kid didn't like or something. He made up the story, and the guy got hauled away by the cops pronto. Adults accused of molestation are most definitely now guilty until proven innocent. It's too bad.

    Also, I think we have gone overboard on children's 'privacy right' issues. Like the story about the 6 year old who got a book at the library, never returned it, the library called and the mom wanted to know what book it was. The librarian refused to tell her because it went against their privacy policy. For a 6 year old??? For a book the mother is going to have to pay the hefty late fee for? Give me a break.
  3. darthmomm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 4
    Kids still have no rights.....

    Samantha Runnion.....RAPED...(age 5)....killed, and left in a disgusting pose in a wooded area. Her killer....arrested and tried for prior RAPE of 2 children. Jury LET HIM GO...because they did not believe the children. [face_plain]

    Children have no rights..and 5 year olds RARELY.......VERY RARELY lie about being raped.
  4. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    darthmomm, well, it depends really, you have those cases, then you have the cases of the kids that threaten their own parents by telling that they will scream "abuse" if they don't get what they want.
  5. DESERTJEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
    I have a solution.

    Kill or rape a child = Automatic decapitation right after being found guilty.

    These Sick (people) should have no right at anything, protecting children is a bigger priority than attacking Iraq.

    But, I kind of see your point though, but the police shouldn't, take too much time on watching these younger kids thats the parents job, or atleast you'd think so.

    EDIT: Sorry Knight. :)
  6. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    I have no doubt that very young children should be believed when accusing someone of something as strong as rape. But older children are a little more savvy than that, and the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction if we blindly believe them, as in the case of this teacher.

    And I think the Runnion case is appalling, in that the creep's defense lawyers made out the children to be liars. Defense lawyers often disgust me with the tactics they will use to protect creeps, and any kind of case. Any grown man that calls little girls liars, against all credible evidence, to get his client off the hook should hang right next to the loser.

    I just don't see how this can be construed as a lack of children's 'rights' though. Of course they have the right not to be raped, or molested, or abused. They have human rights just like anyone.

    DESERTJEDI, I like how you think. ;)
  7. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Keep it civil here. If I see that this thread is littered with inflammatory language and profanity when I'm home later tonight, there will be bannings given out.

  8. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    I just thought of an incident that made me go "hmmmm...that's not a good trend". The folks upstairs from my fiance have a little boy who just started going to school. I had noticed when I visited that he seemed to be raising hell more than usual. His dad spoke to my fiance and mentioned that he was having a hard time keeping the boy in line because, as the boy told him they were being taught at school that if your parents ever hit you, they could go to jail and don't be afraid to tell someone if your parents hit you.

    Now, I understand the underlying idea behind this, to get kids that are truly being beaten to tell someone. But I think it's appalling that a school would undermine a parent's authority like this by making little 5-year old kids believe a simple spanking (which I, and apparently the father as well, have no problem with when it is necessary to keep a defiant child from acting like a tyrant) is abuse and that his dad now had NO right to lay a finger on him. Of course the kid was going crazy! In his mind, Dad couldn't rebuke him ever, or he'd go to jail!

    This is pathetic, and damned Orwellian, if you ask me.

    His father complained to the school and told them how displeased he was with them undermining his authority at home. Good for him!
  9. DESERTJEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
    A school has no right in telling kids that! Especially a 5 year old, the teacher needs to be evaluated.

    TeeBee we share the same brain cell ;)

    darthmomm, well, it depends really, you have those cases, then you have the cases of the kids that threaten their own parents by telling that they will scream "abuse" if they don't get what they want

    An uncle of mine almost went to prison because of this, he and my aunt adopted a little girl from guatemala, and when she was 14 this happened, until she finally told the judge she made the whole thing up. Because she was mad and wanted to make them pay. There's gratitude for ya.
  10. FlamingSword Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2001
    star 6
    Yes and no. Children do have rights.

    I'm seeing more and more children (or rather teens) being charged as adults even as young as 14 or 15. These kids have done terrible things, and not they're paying the price - as an adult. Possibly with a life sentence. And we're talking 15 year olds here.

    At the same time, kids are also being treated as having more rights and taking some of the responsibility away from the parents such as in the library book example that TeeBee mentioned.

    Either way I think is a bad trend. Yes, kids do need to be punished for horrendous things. Maybe I just wish they wouldn't do them in the first place. And kids should be kids. Yes, they have rights, but they're also still developing and learning under the wing of their parents and society.

    As for children never lying about abuse and rape. I think they can and do. They can be influenced into saying something by others and some can figure out that this is how they can get attention and 'back at' people. Many cases are true I'm sure. Probably the majority of accusations are. But we do need to keep in mind that they might not be telling the truth.

    And good for your neighbor, TeeBee. He should stand up for his rights. :)
  11. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Well, don't tax it too much today, DESTERJEDI, I need it for class later tonight. :D
  12. DESERTJEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
    [face_laugh] No worries there, I'm at work, no need for it here. :p
  13. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think the law is protecting children too much. Little children are helpless for the most part and need protection. Poor Samantha Runnion.... I just felt so sick when I heard about that. I hope they give the sicko who did that the death penalty. :mad:
  14. darthmomm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 4
    darthmomm, well, it depends really, you have those cases, then you have the cases of the kids that threaten their own parents by telling that they will scream "abuse" if they don't get what they want.

    It is appaling that there are children out there that make up horrendous stories, in the big picture....there are VERY few kids who do that. Very few. Those very few, stick out in adults minds. The percentage is so low, it is not even worthy of a percentage. But, because adults seem to sterotype people......ALL children are chastised.

    There has been a case here where I live that....a dad recieved full custody of his children...mom (who was a social worker) was not too happy. She fabricated a story. At first, she told people that dad sexually abused her son. Now, she kidnapped her son, and with the help of this psycho woman Tammy Yagor, took him out of the country. About a year later, mom decided to also acuse grandpa and uncle of sexualy molesting her son. For 7 years....she made new, and inventive accusations. All of them blatant lies. 3 weeks ago....mom and son were found in Florida. Mom arrested, and son taken back to Connecticut. Well....DCF decides not to allow kid back into dads home. Because of a false accusation from a disgruntled parent....the good parent can not have his kid back. No one has asked the child. [face_plain] I give children a little more credit than most...I believe in them. I believe that they are truthfull.....and if they arent, there are people who can get the truth out.
  15. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    I don't know if it seems that children are being "needlessly" protected, but there are things that could lead up to that. IT has been mentioned that what children learn in school could be detrimental to the parents authority. But of course, you then let the child know that YOU are in charge, not the school, of the child.
    But what about when children realize that they are "just words". Well I hope by then, you were stern enough as a parent to get the point across that you don't mess with your parents i.e. enforcing rules and punishments, learning when to say "No", being fair, and making the child understand why they were punished etc. There are times, however, when the use of force is necessary. By that I mean sometimes you have to do that pinchy-by-the-ear thing that moms do, or grab their chin and make them look you straight in the eye or various other means. These were done in my family to get the point across, and they worked.
    I hate to think that an 8 year old child could control their parents like that, for fear of reprisal from a too PC society that parents can't even parent their own bloody child.

    Of course, then we get into that whole, when do children get their full rights, when are they accountable etc. etc. Here's a thought: LEAVE IT UP TO THE PARENT. They raise their child as they see fit. I'll be damned if my parenting skills are to be questioned by those who I don't know to be good parents or not.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  16. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    From what I've read here, they're protected from Nothings and left to fend for their own against Somethings.
  17. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    "Kill or rape a child = Automatic decapitation right after being found guilty."

    I agree 100% Start doing this more on a regular basis and I bet you the numbers will drop. The first guy who needs to go is this sicko out in California who just killed the 5 year old girl. He needs to go. He serves no function in society or anyone else like him. Killing and raping a child is a automatic death sentence.

    I say protect the children because kids are in the purest form when they are young and it only gets worse as they grow. So allow them to enjoy those days, and the children come first in my priorities. If it comes down to others rights and freedoms I choose the protect the child.

  18. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Would that automatic decapitation count for an adult who had consesual sex with a fifteen year old?
  19. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    No, but I still think the adult should be punished for statutory rape. I think jail would be enough.
  20. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Isn't that going a bit far? The statutory rape laws, as they stand, are rather silly. In my school there was a guy who had dropped out of school for a year and then came back. He was 20 when he was a senior in high school. His girlfriend was a junior who was 16. By the law, he would have to go to jail.
  21. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I support statutory rape laws. I don't think teenagers should be having sex with adults. And the law has to be drawn somewhere. It's drawn at 18. You have to be 18 to do most things - vote, own property, marry without your parents' consent, move out on your own, get most jobs, make a contract, etc. About the only thing I can think of that has a younger age is driving. So why shouldn't the age of consent be 18? Is it really that important when you are 15, or 16, or 17, to have sex with someone over 18? NO!
  22. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I just don't understand why it's that big of a deal if both people consent. The laws in America make no sense. You can drive at 16. You can go out with a half-ton projectile and kill people. You can have sex with all the other 16-year-olds you want. But the second you touch a 20-year-old it's considered rape.

    No, it's not necessary. But neither are a lot of things. Some people choose to do them. Some people don't. That's fine for them but how does it hurt anyone if a 17-year-old gets it on with a 21-year-old?
  23. DARTHPIGFEET Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2001
    star 4
    "That's fine for them but how does it hurt anyone if a 17-year-old gets it on with a 21-year-old?"

    Oh I don't know a 21 year old can do a lot that a 17 year old girl can't. Smoke, drink to name a few legally. It's been my experience that sure someone who is 21 or 22 can fall in love with someone younger than him and stuff but there are also those guys who are looking for the 15, 16 and 17 year old girl just to have sex with them because it's apparently easier and can press them easier into having sex due to impresionable and inmature. It can cause a lot of harm in some cases because this guy simply moves on after knocking her up and such.

    Now granted this law has it's gray area where say a guy turns 18 his senior year right around Prom, and his girlfriend is still 17 and they have sex and something happens and this guy gets slapped with a rape charge forever. That is wrong, but I say if your some 22 year old dating a girl still in high school and is around 16 or 17 you better be careful.
  24. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I think there is an exception for statutory rape in many states if there is less than a two year age difference. I remember this from another thread here about statutory rape. And you know what, I don't think the "right" of adults to have sex with "consenting" teenagers is something the law needs to protect. So I think statutory rape laws are fine. If you're 20 and you don't want to go to jail, don't have sex with a 16-year-old! Simple as that.
  25. gwaernardel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Oh I don't know a 21 year old can do a lot that a 17 year old girl can't. Smoke, drink to name a few legally. It's been my experience that sure someone who is 21 or 22 can fall in love with someone younger than him and stuff but there are also those guys who are looking for the 15, 16 and 17 year old girl just to have sex with them because it's apparently easier and can press them easier into having sex due to impresionable and inmature. It can cause a lot of harm in some cases because this guy simply moves on after knocking her up and such.

    How is this any different than what a 17-year-old guy would do to a 16-year-old girl? I just don't get it. I understand protecting the 13- and 14-year-olds in the world because they're not old enough to deal with the consequences and they're still considered children. A 16-year-old can drive. I really think this is an important point. 41,821 people died in car accidents in the year 2000. Statistics show that one in every four young drivers will get into an accident, with 40% of those crashes resulting in injury or death. When a person is mature enough to drive with these kind of odds, that person is mature enough to sleep with someone who happens to be a few years older than them.
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