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Discussion Has The TLJ novel changed anyones opinion of the Film ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by PadawanGussin, Mar 7, 2018.

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Has the TLJ novel changed anyones opinion of the Film ?

  1. Yes

    17.5%
  2. No

    77.2%
  3. Unsure

    8.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Does the Novel change anyone's mind for better or worse?
     
  2. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    The novel is out?
     
  3. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Sep 6, 2017
    Yes, It came out on Tuesday
     
  4. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    My feeling: if someone did not like the movie, it is unlikely that they would buy the book, never mind changing their views. And the opposite would be very likely true as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  5. Strategize

    Strategize Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    I haven't read it yet besides some leaks, but judging by those it won't change my opinion much. I liked it before and I'll still like it after reading.
     
  6. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    Maz is now my favorite character again. After reading the chapter with her POV.
     
    jaqen likes this.
  7. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    Maybe there will be some exceptions?

    One of my best friends doesn't like ROTS; it's his least favorite Star Wars film. But he loves the novelization and consider it the best Star Wars book he's ever read. Didn't change his mind about the film, but it did radically improve his view of the story.
     
  8. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    To me it depends on whether you are looking for a way to get back on the train at all — in which case the novel helps massively — or not.

    If you like the movie already, or are close to liking it but had a few issues that you wished had been explained more overtly, that the novel confirms or does explain more overtly, then I think the novel might boost your experience immensely.

    If you aren’t looking for a way back on the train at all, have rarely read a “gusher’s” opinion that you agreed with, and enjoy the sarcasm and snark of bashing then I don’t see how it would help.

    It provides additional info and less nuance so if those aspects sound cool then I’d recommend it.
     
  9. cerealbox

    cerealbox Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    One particular interesting thing that the novel revealed, is that Holdo couldn't have done her kamikaze move, without Poe.

    Apparently, there's too much prep work and other unfamiliar things that Holdo needed to do to put the Raddus in lightspeed and strike the Supremacy, by herself, in that little time.

    As it turns out, when Poe did his mutiny and went to the bridge, he was charting a course for the Raddus to jump to, in lightspeed.

    So when Holdo saw Poe's course in the ship's computer and realized it was set for behind where the Supremacy is now, all she had to do was push a couple of panels, and voila.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  10. godisawesome

    godisawesome Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 14, 2010
    You and I disagree about a lot of things, but I think you're diagnosis is probably 100% on the money. Most of the criticisms and praises of TLJ are going to be about core plot points. It's not like ROTS, where most of the debate would be centered on the execution. There will probably be a few people for whom the book helps, but I don't think we're looking at a situation where more deft dialogue and purple prose is going to modify someone's opinions of major plot points.

    Like...
    My critical, dissenting opinion for that change is that it doesn't address the core problem of why weaponized hyperspace is only now making an appearance. Jason Fry's added some nice details, but he can't really address the main complaint because that would contradict the film, where the basic mechanics are that simply engaging hyperspace towards an enemy ship will destroy it with apparently no defense.

    If you follow that plot point and approve it, this change just further justifies your like for it. If you don't, like I do, than it doesn't change anything.
     
  11. Certain_man

    Certain_man Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2018
    I did appreciate though how they address the tech of it. I haven’t read the book, but I saw an excerpt from it describing how the hyperdrive computer has a built-in failsafe that prevents ships from colliding with other matter when going to hyperspace. Holdo apparently deactivated this failsafe to perform the kamikaze move.
     
  12. themoth

    themoth Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    I'm a fan of the movie but have no huge interest to buy the book at this point. I'm waiting for the Blu-REY.
     
  13. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I've had a rather good time reading the book. Things that were "missing" from the movie, but could be easily explained by anyone that wasn't deliberately looking for ways to bash it, have been confirmed throughout the book. And I'm barely a third of the way done.
     
  14. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think that’s been one of the most interesting aspects of the process. Some of us were labeled as apologists who were applying our own combined knowledge, logic and reasoning to why things play out the way they do much of the time as though and doing that lead to a lot of "I shouldn't have to think about this" talks or "The characters aren't saying everything that's going on in their minds out loud so nothing is definitive and it's too interpretive."

    In a lot of cases... as early back as some of our earliest viewings many of us pieced aspects of these things together and laid out motivation and explained things that some saw as plot holes. Heck, I even tried to make a FAQ to help some fans who may have been taken out or confused of certain aspects so that they could better enjoy a Star Wars experience!

    In about 99% of those assertions, interpretations, explanations, that many of us offered up for why these things worked better for us... and how we were seeing them... they’ve basically been confirmed in canon and elaborated on and spelled out more directly with some of the nuance now lifted for people who wanted things spelled out more.

    Many of us didn’t need it but it’s good to know our instincts, critical reasoning, understanding of human psychology, of character weaknesses, and of military history that combined to allow us to experience the film closer to how Rian Johnson intended it ... were largely correct. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  15. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2016
    Or even with explanations some still dont like some of the choices made or don't think the explanations makes sense. Im glad you liked the movie I really wish I did. Please dont dismiss anyone who didnt like it as "just looking to bash it". It makes it seem like you think its impossible for anyone to find issues with it unless they are looking for them, instead of just having a different opinion.

    I haven't read the novel, but the passages Ive read haven't changed my opinion. Except wondering why Rian had time to spend on that disgusting milk creature thing, but not time to include the dance scene which would have been a nice moment of genuine bonding between two characters who really should needed it.
    I really hope you arent just using a roundabout way to say everyone else was just too stupid to get it. Your post comes off as very smug. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt though and assume that wasnt your intent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
    2Cleva, Shadao, La Calavera and 3 others like this.
  16. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    When some people who dislike the film say The Last Jedi is stupid, lazy, ruined Star Wars, makes no sense, contrived, unfunny, hates Rey, hates Poe, hates Finn, hates Luke, and that it's only critically acclaimed due to influence... or goes even further than any of that... I try not to think that's their roundabout way of implying that the millions out there who do like The Last Jedi an awful lot aren't less intelligent, less creative, want to see Star Wars "ruined", don't care about story, don't appreciate organic storytelling, don't care about Rey, don't care about Poe, don't care about Finn, don't care about Luke, and that we are somehow being persuaded by critical acclaim from others that they feel is entirely meaningless and purchased.

    I try to give all of those people the benefit of the doubt that they aren't implying fans of TLJ are like that for not seeing it the way they do. I try to assume that isn't their intent.

    When we talk or ask non-sarcastic, non-rhetorical questions about what TLJ is about and why characters might be behaving the way they are behaving, and provide evidence for why we feel certain aspects do or don't work for us it seems to lead to some really strong discussions. When the discussions instead move closer to the bottom of this pyramid with regard to Lucasfilm or its employees, including Rian Johnson, and their intentions, or sweeping judgments about the artistic value of the work as though they're anything more than our own personal reactions to the work... it becomes venting and attacking and name calling and bashing and that's where things tend to fall apart as far as actual discussion goes. Fortunately, there's a great place for that for all who find enjoyment and comfort in that. Green (DH3) on down doesn't lead to productive discussions according to experts.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  17. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2016
    You directly said that those who didn't like it lacked the knowledge, logic, and critical thinking to understand it. Thats what Im referring to. Im basing my post on what you in particular said, not an interpretation of anyone who liked the film.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  18. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I said no such thing. You're basing your post on what you think I said, not what I said.

    I said that the vast majority of the assertions, interpretations, explanations that many of us offered up for why these areas of contention worked for some of us, and how we were seeing them, have been confirmed as canon or elaborated on further and spelled out more directly to remove some of the nuance in aspects of the film that had previously seemed more interpretive and contentious to others. Some of us felt Johnson gave us enough to connect certain dots. Others did not and. Subsequent interviews, the extended edition, deleted scenes, (and likely the commentary itself but we shall have to see about that in time) have shown that some of us interpreted these areas as intended and others did not.

    I then said that while some of us didn't need that spelled out ourselves (because we'd already formed these opinions anyway) based on what was up on screen, or what we felt we knew about notable characters and their weaknesses, it’s good to know our instincts, critical reasoning, understanding of human psychology, of character weaknesses, and of military history that combined to allow us to experience the film that way was indeed closer to how Rian Johnson intended it ... and not wildly off base or contradicted by him or the extended edition.

    That has far more to do with the relief in realizing that how some of us were seeing it wasn't completely out to lunch then it does have anything with all people who didn't like the film. There are plenty of people who also saw many of these things similarly, and whose issues were elsewhere, who still didn't like the film even though they also felt Johnson delivered enough for us to put the pieces together. And some of those same people just disagreed with what those pieces together formed or the message they then formed or the execution. So, it has very little at all to do with all who liked or disliked TLJ and everything to do with whether what one picked up on and argued ended up being the intent, or canon explanation, or not. And that applies to interpretations of scenes, motivation, character, strategy, etc from people who both liked and disliked it.

    It's really not that different than all those who thought Rey Random was very likely, and who thought Rey likely grew up on Jakku because of her junker clothes in her vision, and who felt the complications involved with trying to explain how unlikely it seemed that Han and Leia and Ben would have had this baby girl kidnapped in their lives, who ended up on Jakku somehow, and then met this girl who looks like the child and is the same age that the child would have been... and none of them would ever suspect, or tell the story about how they had lost a girl her age a long time ago, or said to each other anything about how she reminded them of how their own missing daughter might have looked. Or how Leia's Force sensitivity wouldn't allow her to recognize or sense her own daughter up close.

    I remember those talks too after TFA. I remember many of us saying Han and Leia being her parents seemed very unlikely for all of those reasons (and plenty more related to storytelling). It's a solid feeling when you realize that your reasoning and logic and theorizing for the story is sound based on where it's going. There's a post from me on one of the Reylo fan club threads from like 18 months ago when the topic was still forbidden where I wrote that while I don't think she'll love him back... I do fully expect his desire for her will become a big part of VIII. When the topic became unbanned I said the same thing. To me, it seemed obvious after TFA that she would become his primary weakness and that he'd desire her.

    Many of us theorize and assess what's in the films to the best of our own abilities based on what we're seeing. Some have just been more accurate at that than others. There are a lot of people who've been far more right than I have. I never predicted the Poe storyline at all. I had thought his entire story arc in VIII and struggle would be more about him being thrust into a coaching role for new X-wing fighters and being too nice to teach others how to fly and being incapable of providing the necessary discipline X-wing fighters needed because I saw his personality is too joke-y and wanting to be liked in order to be an effective coach of flying despite being an incredible pilot. I read up on Twelve O'clock High and really believed that's where things would go. I couldn't have been more wrong about that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  19. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    I wouldn't say they were too stupid (though it's entirely possible that some of them are), I would say they were being intentionally nitpicky and obtuse as a method to further criticize a movie they didn't like. If you don't like the movie, well that bums be out, but I'm not gonna say you're wrong to dislike it. Unfortunately though, many people that disliked the movie have been trying as hard as they can to validate their feelings by pointing to easily explainable gaps in the story, and then deriding those who explain the gap as doing RJ's job for him. The book has simply confirmed that our explanations really were as simple and accurate as we imagined they were.
     
  20. Satipo

    Satipo Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 29, 2014
    I think the book is good - and I loved the additional Rey and Luke moments. Nothing leapt out as a massive surprise that couldn't be gleaned from watching the film. As others have noted - there was no "apologism" - the motivations and explanations people were able to get from reading between the lines were the motivations and explanations intended by TPTB.


    I really enjoyed the caretaker/ raider scene, and I'm looking forward to that deleted scene.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  21. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Wonder no more...That scene was there specifically to make you uncomfortable in the same way Luke wants to make Rey uncomfortable. It was actually fairly critical to conveying how Luke was dealing with Rey's unwanted presence.
     
  22. jaqen

    jaqen Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 22, 2004
    There were some that hoped the novel would make things even more ambiguous, just enough of a crack to let zombie fan theories justifiably back in.

    I'm glad it seems to have doubled down on cementing what's already in the film.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  23. ObiSpamBaloney

    ObiSpamBaloney Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 12, 2014
    The novel improved the experience by helping us get into the characters heads. One part really helpful was what was going through Leia and Kylo's mind before she was blown out into space. THe part where Luke fools Rey into rushing to aide the Caretaker village from a raiding PARTY (ha, now I get the pun!), helped to explain WHY Luke did not return sooner to save the day.

    The movie wasn't ruined for me by the many things people complained about. At the end of the day those complaints were pretty much subjective and did not rise above feelings and preferences. 1) Missing and unexplained things - nothing new in Star Wars - no ordinary movie series - originally designed to be like a TV series, where not everything is spelled out within a single episode; 2) Rey as a nobody - nothing new in Star Wars - all the younglings in the prequels were nobodies as well; 3) Luke tries to kill Ben/Kylo - nothing new in Star Wars - Luke also tried to kill Anakin Vader; 4) Luke relented from killing his evil family members, and it had only been for a moment - again nothing new; 5) Ben/Kylo and Anakin/Vader are two different people and therefore have a "destiny [that] lies along another path" (Kenobi, ANH) one which they "cannot escape" (Kenobi) - we also don't know what "the will of the force" (Qui-Gon, TPM) is for any given character ahead of time, and should not be hasty to jump to conclusions because "in motion the future is" (Yoda); 6) We also don't know WHAT "balance of the force" is supposed to be, nor the "prophecy of the Chosen One" let alone what a "Chosen One" is; 7) Luke changing after 30 years is hardly new - every human changes, and there's nothing ever saying Luke was infallible, perfect etc; 8) Luke's exile was nothing new. Kenobi and Yoda had their own exiles; 9) Luke giving up on a fallen apprentice is nothing, and regarding them as lost is hardly new - Yoda and Kenobi both regarded Vader that way; 10) Rey's "Mary Sue" powers is annoying, but the novelization suggestion that she downloads Kylo's training/skills during their mind meld is plausible - just not sure how she learned how to swim when she fell into the hole (Ben probably had swimming lessons as well) :); 11) People's imagination about Luke's post-ROTJ future was ruined - it wasn't. He was his old hero self, raising up a new order of Jedi, etc - for quite some time, prior to TFA; Han and Leia likewise were married and happy as well; - it's just those things didn't last. Times change. People change. Those changes all make for a more interesting story; 12) Killing off the old cast, and relegating their role in the action, etc. What did people expect? Lucas presented this long ago as passing on the torch from one generation to the next - not upstaging them. Kenobi and Yoda both had much smaller roles in the original trilogy vs the prequels. Again nothing new nor unprecedented here.

    There's a LOT of wiggle room here and points naysayers fail to bring up when venting about this emotionally. They pass off their distaste and emotion as if it were gospel, and not at all subjective. They are entilted to their opinions, but they should be honest enough to admit where they are being subjective. If the movie was "ruined" it was only for them from their certain subjective point of view.

    What the novel didn't help me with is the whole Code Breaker / Canto Bight plot line. The odds of them running into another code breaker, in their jail cell just seems way too lucky. This is the part that sorta jumps-the-shark for me. Maybe the whole "cosmic force" and chosen vessels extends to ordinary non-force users? Han Solo's envolvement in the original trilogy wasn't by chance. In the words of Qui Gon - there are no such things as conincidences, or as Kenobi said later - no such thing as luck. Maybe there is that mystical destiny thing that impacts ordinary people as well in the Star Wars universe. Maybe that's the best way to understand it? Any how, that whole subplot should have been removed from the movie, and they should have simply snuck aboard the ship already knowing how to do so.

    I think overall, the movie as a whole works. Subjectively speaking, i think the new characters are not that memorable nor do I have an interest in following them after this trilogy concludes. I'll understand if others will, but their destiny lies along a different path :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  24. Christopher Blair

    Christopher Blair Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    I havent been on in a while but I dont get the crux of the argument when it comes to the lightspeed destruction scene. I guess it could have been used before but the reason it was not and isnt used much is bc of cost, cost of ships/money to a small rebellion, cost of lives if you cant get everyone evacuated in smaller ships bc there is not enough like with the titanic. the fact that once it is used your enemy now knows this is a tactic on the table and will adjust for it. while it instills fear in your enemy, the fact is that it can also lower morale of those committing the act, we know that from WW2 and Kamikaze pilots. also in real life calculations have to be perfect to strike effectively, so I would assume the same would be for the star wars universe. Back to those real life japanese pilots here is some statistics on the success rate.

    With a hit percentage at 14 % out of 7,465 launches, that comes to about 1,045 Kamikazes hitting US ships for a 86% failure rate for a Kamikaze to strike anything but the water.

    The final tally on ships lost to Kamikazes is still debated but the number ranges from 57-34 depending on authentic sources (not including propaganda from both sides) so we'll go with 47 for a number in the middle. If 47 ships were sunk out of 1,045 Kamikaze hits, that comes to a success rate of 4%.

    With a success rate of 4 %, these attacks seem all but wasteful as you sacrifice precious fuel, plane, and men for attacks that are only psychologically damaging rather than physically damaging.

    So I do think it is reasonable to think this was a one off successful attempt, to slow down imminent death to the rebels. I wouldnt expect to see ths type of warfare very often in any universe especially the star wars universe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
  25. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    There’s a first for everything. New tactics are as much a part of warfare as anything.

    136 years ago is the first recorded suicide bomb attack on Earth for example. A terrorist did it to kill the Tsar Alexander II outside the Winter Palace in St Petersburg.

    [​IMG]

    The night before the attack Grinevitsky had written: ‘I shall not live one day, one hour in the bright season of our triumphs, but I believe that with my death I shall do all that it is my duty to do.’

    Bombs had been around 600-700 years prior to this on Earth of course. That act has been a part of life on this planet ever since. Sometimes fading from memory. Other times, like the past few decades, used more than ever before.

    There’s a first for everything. It’s really as simple as that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2018
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