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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Apropos of Nothing - ACKBAR IN CAPITALS - The Lit Forum Social Thread, v2.0.15

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Master_Keralys, Jan 1, 2009.

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  1. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    What I'm suggesting is that Pompeii is a very sad tale that offers zero in the way of entertainment, it renders the likes of ROTS feelgood entertainment! There's no shortage of historical epics that could be done and be entertaining but I'm sceptical Pompeii could work as one of them.
     
  2. tjace

    tjace Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 11, 2008
    This. While obviously not as well written, it felt like a lot of the identity-examining stuff in Stover's books. Avengers was more fun, but I felt like IM3 came closer to challenging the Dark Knight trilogy for best/deepest superhero movie.
     
  3. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    Well, I don't think "happy" necessarily has to be a requisite for something to be entertaining, or even to be popular. I mean, The Hunger Games is a worldwide best seller and blockbuster film series. I'm sure an effective tragedy could be made from the event.

    However, the question of whether Pompeii can make a good film is only academic. The point I'm trying to get across is that, because there are so few historical epics released, and even less successful ones (do we dare count 300 as an "historical epic?"), it is too bad that one that is likely being used, in some part at least, as market study has to be so bad or, as you say, quite possibly doomed from the start.
     
  4. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Hold on, are you using the term "historical" to purely refer to the "classical" era? As I was applying it quite a bit more widely.

    In any case, my recall was off so Pompeii could work as a survival tale, as it seems around 90 per cent of the town lived by legging it!
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I'll answer fully later at the computer but did I even see the same film as you people? Deep? Character examination? In what universe? He occasionally had PTSD flashbacks which were dropped when convenient. It's like the film was caricaturing depth.


    I don't look for sophistication in the Marvel films, because they can't do it well. They should play to their strengths, because when they don't it just looks limp.


    Misa ab iPhono meo est.
     
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  6. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    I definitely wouldn't say IM3 was a deep film; like the other Marvel films, just a very fun one. Just more of an espionage/pulp adventure kind of fun than a superhero explosion kind of fun.
     
  7. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    This talk of movies pleases me. Especially the discussion of Citizen Kane and Maltese Falcon. I love classic movies, to the point that I didn't want to be a writer through most of my childhood, I wanted to be Lenard Maltin. :D

    ID hit IM3 on the head perfectly. It's in my top five Marvel movies, right next to Avengers and Iron Man itself, because it's far more of a character study than people seem to give it credit for. Seeing the physical and psychological consequences of what being a superhero would do to someone like Tony Stark is so badly needed in so many other franchises. It's a deconstructive, intelligent film, playing with its roles, plot and audience in ways that few superhero movies do.

    As for epics, the problem with the lack of epics in today's cinema has multiple facets. Its the same reason why there aren't a lot of Westerns anymore, or traditional War films. A lot of film genres simply aren't considered bankable by the major studios today, and the smaller studios don't have the budget to try to make one themselves. Big budget, as Jello said, doesn't denote "epic" anymore, since any major tentpole film will have a budget that big regardless of what genre it is. And attempts to revive those older genres often fall very, very flat (Pompeii, the Lone Ranger, Monument Men, etc). The closet thing we've gotten to an "epic" film recently are epic fantasy films like LotR, but those are singular films that a lot of other series (including their own) haven't been able to duplicate in the years since.

    I don't know what ingredients go into making an "epic" film. A certain writing tone, a certain cinematographic style, a certain subject or story? It's a combination of factors, I think, one that's gotten very, very difficult to duplicate with the focus on bankability and franchises nowadays. Studios are more concerned with creating a sustainable series than on singular works of art. Which is one of the things I'm worried about with Star Wars being a yearly franchise soon. Say what you will about three of the six previous films (Lord knows that I have) but all of them are singular, unique visual experiences that are impossible to mistake for anything else, especially ANH, ESB and TPM. Soon, it'll be a recurring series, and that uniqueness will be diluted, perhaps lost forever.
     
  8. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 13, 2007
    I absolutely basically hated Iron Man 3, one of the worst overall MCU movies that have been made.

    I don't think it's completely wrong to say that the ending was botched. Tony is afraid aliens will come and mess Earth up. He's also becoming overly reliant on the suit, maybe because of that fact. So, because he's leaning on the suits and is kind of paranoid, he's building an entire army of these suits, each with their own ability, which could come in handy in case of a massive scale alien invasion like he just faced. So at the end of the movie I expected him to come to terms with his somewhat paradoxical nature and reaffirm that he is Iron Man, and that he may have to sacrifice some of his agency as a person to protect the Earth. That would be awesome. But that's not what happens, because he blows up all his suits! All that protection against a possible alien menace, gone! Is he even thinking straight? Probably not, because he then says "I am Iron Man!"

    Uh....

    No you're not.

    You just blew up the thing that made you Iron Man, the thing that made you one of several last line of defenses of the Earth so that you can protect people like Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan.

    If he had said "I am Tony Stark.", that would've been fine.

    Additionally, the lighter, less rock-star action, more buddy action-comedy that Shane Black brought to the table (he's a great director and has a great style, but between the terrible script choices and the slightly different style, the movie failed to work for me.) just didn't work for me.

    Also the Mandarin-Ben Kingsley-Guy Pearce thing is a big of a mess itself.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, it's unfortunate that the wrong message gets delivered here. This is kind of why I'm so happy with Frozen -- not only is it one of my favorite films, but it's making $$$$ which would encourage the suits to expand their horizons. In fact, with Catching Fire and Frozen being potentially the top two domestic grossers of 2013 (if Frozen catches up to IM3), we'd have the top bucks in 2013 being heroine-centric films. That alone should refute some of the arguments we've even seen floating around these parts about what audiences want to see in a movie.

    See I saw IM3 as a pander-fest. I didn't find it a great character study, as I said, because I thought it was neatly resolved too quickly (despite, yes, the guy being suit-less most of the film). I don't know that Marvel has the chops for that, and I don't think it fits the tone of their franchise. Not that they shouldn't try to take risks and do something different... I just didn't think they hit the target.

    And the final fight was your typical CG-driven action snoozefest.

    I will definitely agree with the second point that TV is in a bit of a golden age right now when it comes to high quality output, though.

    That description sounds like a movie I'd like to see. I just don't know that it belongs to IM3 :p

    Yeah, that's very true. Bridge on the River Kwai wasn't built for a sequel. It told a story, and it left it there. Whereas the big budget films today are all eyed for franchise potential, because that's where the real money is: in sustained gross. Even Frozen is being eyed for a sequel of the non-direct-to-video kind, and even I have to admit wanting one even though I think it'll never possibly compare to the original.

    But even then, we occasionally get the throwback Western. A love letter to a dead genre. We haven't seen that with the epic, or at least seen one that actually counts as part of the genre it's throwing back to. Something like Pompeii or Hercules or Clash of the Titans has an ancient setting, but a setting doesn't mean anything: the best epics of the 20th century were set... in the 20th century.

    I guess I have a love hate relationship with franchises. I understand the appeal -- posting on a SW messageboard -- and would easily clamor for "more of the same" with films and characters that I liked. But once in a while, I'd like something different.
     
  10. karilyan

    karilyan Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2014
    On IM3, I still cant believe people quote the line "I am Iron Man" and not get what it means in terms of the Tony's growth as a character, as if it isnt hammered to death in the film.

    The whole point of the story is that he is the superhero without the damned Iron Man suits, in that he is also the mechanic, whose super power is his intellect. That he will find a way no matter what to be a hero without the suit. And that all those other suits he blew up was useless because he will always find a better way to be the hero.

    Then the complaints begin to go to "not enough time in the suit..." Yeh we got that movie, Its called Iron Man 2.
     
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  11. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Now I'm not seeing it, what's stopping you from seeking out that "something different" ? It won't be as heavily marketed as the blockbusters, if indeed at all, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
     
  12. Cynical_Ben

    Cynical_Ben Force Ghost star 4

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    Aug 12, 2013
    I'm all for efforts being made to be different, to bring something new and interesting to the screen that hasn't really be seen before. The issue is, sometimes that isn't good/doesn't make money, thus audiences don't go to see them because they don't expect to see a good movie, and studios won't greenlight them because they don't want to take the risks. It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough that unique films are becoming more and more rare. Sequels and franchises are a safe bet for both studios and audiences.

    Hollywood in general isn't exactly creative. How many times have they tried to duplicate the Harry Potter films' success, or Twilight? Or Star Wars for that matter? Even movies like Pacific Rim are based heavily in stuff that's come before. Godzilla, which I am still really excited for, is a reworking of a script that was abandoned for the 1998 film. Filmmakers like Tarantino, with enough clout to do as they like and still have it make money, are uncommon to say the least.

    I also like franchises. But franchises are also an incredibly broad term. We have the "Marvel" franchise, which started as more traditional superhero films but have gradually become more and more diverse and unique from each other. Captain America 2 looks nothing like Guardians of the Galaxy, and Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 were divergent at the very least. And then we have Twilight, which was basically the same movie done five times.

    I'm not a big TV person, never have been. But after seeing and hearing about shows like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad, I'm more than willing to grant that huge chunks of creativity and quality are taking place on the small screen now, especially since things like Netflix are becoming more prominent. Filmmakers are more willing to take chances on the small screen because they're not beholden to the networks for ratings anymore. And networks are then becoming more daring and willing to take risks to try to keep their shows alive.

    Take Arrow, for instance. A dark, mature portrayal of a "superhero" a la The Dark Knight, psychological and brutal at times, willing to play with the mythology and characters in unexpected ways. Ten years ago, that show would not have been made, no way. Five years ago, it would have struggled, lasted for maybe a half-season and likely been cancelled before it ever really found itself. Today, it's the highest rated show on CW and, thanks to Netflix, got me hooked. And that's a niche superhero show. It's not Mad Men, GoT, even House of Cards. But there's room for that sort of niche work now, something that movies simply don't have.
     
  13. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 13, 2007
    Conversely, I'm not sure you fully understand the full scale of what they're attempting to make of their post-Avengers universe. Tony was having almost full to scale Post Traumatic Stress Disorder from fighting those aliens. The very fact that there were aliens with evil intentions willing and able to invade the planet, and were it not for the other Avengers, Thor, Captain America, and Hulk, with Black Widow and Hawkeye as support and Nick Fury and SHIELD actually kind of messing even more with the safety of the people of Earth.

    Ultimately, Tony would like to keep the people in his life safe. He does this by being Iron Man. By having all these suits to help him in being Iron Man. The fact that he can make more suits doesn't stop the fact that for all he knows, tomorrow there could be another alien invasion, and everyone he cares about will die. The most rash action he could sensibly take is to resign from being Iron Man, and put someone like Rhodes in charge of both the suits and being Iron Man, while he can spend time with and take care of people like Pepper and Hogan with the time he now has.

    The movie doesn't address the issue even slightly like that though, it's too busy making jokes and having a good time to care about any of that. They want to have their cake and eat it too.
     
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    So, on the one hand you don't expect Marvel to do a sophisticated story, but your first paragraph appears to suggest they should? Can't quite reconcile the two.

    In any case, the idea that, post-Avengers, Tony Stark is freaked out by the fact of aliens and other dimensions, all out-classing anything Earth has with ease, is one that works for me, but it's also only a starter firework. It sets the scenes, starts the story running and that's all.
     
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  15. darthcaedus1138

    darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2007

    I'm not going to speak for Jello, but I think they could have struck a balance between the two, but they basically just hinted at the possibility of a deeper, more interesting character for RDJ to play but probably got scared that Disney/audiences wouldn't buy that. So we get back to goofy comedy, all while having the beginnings of some serious character growth for Tony.
     
  16. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Serious character growth? You're never getting that - oh Marvel will market a movie as that, but while they do it, they'll hit you with a game of Find the Lady!

    Superheroes are, at their core - and no one is better at this than Marvel - about the illusion of change rather than actual change. Expecting serious moves is to expect that which is not in their nature.

    In this respect the Nolan Batfilms are a notable exception, but because they are a closed, finite loop they can do things that traditional superhero stories never can and thus Batman gets to retire, but also has to - his body's shot, too much abuse.
     
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  17. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    No, I was responding to people who said it had all that character stuff by asking where it actually was. :p

    Then in a later post, I said I like trying to do something out of the box, I just don't think they have the chops to do it and consequently should play to their strengths.
     
  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
    Ah, thanks.
     
  19. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    In the middle of attempting a peanut butter sandwich where the bread is replaced with burger meat. I'll keep you posted.
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

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    Jul 19, 1999
  21. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I had to add cheese, too, in the end:

    [​IMG]

    :)
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
  23. TrakNar

    TrakNar Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Apr 4, 2011
    It looks like vomit and no doubt has a flavor to match. Why not add grape jelly and mustard?

    And my crossword puzzle book is too easy. I plowed through two-and-a-half puzzles (the half from the two I plowed through this morning, but got bored with) while eating Easy Mac.
     
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  24. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    [​IMG]
     
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  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Dude. It looks like something Elvis Presley would eat.

    And you all know that he died trying to take a ****, right?

    I'll pass.
     
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