Lit HAVAC IS BACK - The Lit Forum Social Thread, v2.0

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Master_Keralys, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5

    Demon in a Bottle.

    I rest my case, that's a pretty good self contained story that has some serious character issues that are resolved within a comic book for Iron Man.

    And it's ultimately their fault for tempting me into thinking there was going to be character development, then taking it away from me and saying "Fooled you!" That's not my fault, it's theirs for crappy storytelling.
  2. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    I haven't seen the Thor movies, but I have seen Avengers, Captain America and all three Iron Man movies. So maybe I have a different perspective, maybe not having the overarching knowledge of the "post-Avengers universe" on my mind made me see things differently. Maybe that knowledge had a negative affect on your view.

    The way I saw it, I don't think Tony is having panic attacks in IM3 because he's scared of aliens. It's not about some alien invasion, it's about Iron Man. He can't handle the stress anymore. He's scared of being Iron Man, he's scared and tired of the whole business. He doesn't want to do it anymore. He wants out. Pepper almost got blown up because he taunted the Mandarin. We see the armor sorta attack Tony and Pepper in his sleep. Iron Man is tearing Tony and Pepper apart, because she's getting sick of the whole deal. The experimental armor keeps falling apart. Iron Man is literally falling apart at the seams. So he ditches it (for a bit).

    He doesn't want to keep his people safe by kicking ass, he wants to keep them safe by keeping them away from the danger that Iron Man attracts. No more Ivan Venkos, no more Aldrich Killians, no more Mandarins. Let someone else (like a god or a super soldier) take the heat, Tony is just a guy, he just wants to be the mechanic, the guy who fixes and invents things.

    At least, that's what I saw. I saw a guy who was burnt out and done. Hence the destruction of the suits, the removal of the shrapnel, the removal of the arc reactor. It's the end of an era. That part of his life is over, he's putting it behind him so he can have a happy ending with Pepper.

    Personally, if they were going to try to give him some characterization, I think they should have went with the Tears of a Clown. It's so obviously set up, he doesn't take anything seriously, he deflects everything with humor, and no one takes him seriously, not even Pepper. It's certainly part of the panic attacks, it's happening because he's avoided everything, he's deflected everything with humor, so now it's all coming crashing down and he finally has to deal with it. I mean, Happy is in a coma, it's not funny anymore. But they don't specifically get into that aspect very much, despite it being so prevalent in all three movies.

    The "I am Iron Man" ending was done to leave things kinda open so you can go anywhere from there. So you can hit the reset button.
    Jedi Ben likes this.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    We do know that he's coming back for Avengers 2 and 3.
    darthcaedus1138 likes this.
  4. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    [IMG]
    TrakNar likes this.
  5. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
  6. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    that should always be accompanied by a spoiler tag
  7. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    My entire life feels spoiled.
  8. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    And I guess this is just the internet age at play here, but people know RDJ will be back for at least Avengers 2 if not 3 and perhaps an Iron Man 4. And I'd be fine with the take you have if a). that was a somewhat consistent tone of the movie and/or b). the movie ended with him saying "I am Tony Stark."

    For me, the way Iron Man 3 presented itself and ended itself did not work and felt awkward and forced and almost laughably uneven.

    You're right about the Tears of a Clown thing too. But they didn't go that way. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
  9. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    Oh, and @Cynical_Ben, you should definitely check out Breaking Bad if you haven't (you haven't if I'm reading your post correctly). Aside from the phenomenal writing, it shares something with those classic movies you mentioned; it has consistently incredible cinematography. It's not much of a stretch to say that it's the most purely stylish show on television. In regards to style, another thing it does exceptionally is its use of sound and music. In fact, it's second only to Mad Men in its ability to skillfully use music to reveal entirely different layers of the story. I have a huge respect for directors that are able to do this; one thing that I never mentioned really struck me about Citizen Kane is its skillful use of audio. Though I've only seen a hand full of movies made before 1941, Kane is above and beyond them all in that regard.

    I have to disagree. Again, if we assume the basis of the movie is that Iron Man is more than a guy in a suit- that not just anyone can put on the suit and be Iron Man- then I found the ending to be a nice touch. In the same way that Bruce Wayne is still Batman without his suit or belt, Tony Stark is still Iron Man without his suit. Or, rather, he's still a tremendously intelligent, resourceful person with almost unlimited resources who will go out of his way to help people. His compromised suits are gone, but he can just make more. He can make them better, and he's the only person who can do that.

    While I maintain that Iron Man 3 isn't an exceptionally deep movie- just a very fun one- it still does have some themes that I really enjoy. One of which is Tony's development. By the end of Iron Man 3, he's a different person than when he began (and an entirely different person than in the beginning of the first film). In a lot of ways, The Avengers solidified his development from a rich millionaire who solves world crises in his spare time to a superhero who helps people. Iron Man 3 welded it firmly in place. What I love about Iron Man 3 is that Tony has to confront the fact that he has no super powers of any kind, that he's backed into a corner, cut off from all of his resources beyond what he can get at his local Wal-mart, and prove that he can still save the world. Or, in other words, to prove that the emphasis in "Iron Man" is on the latter word, not the former.

    While Guy Pearce was only mildly threatening as a villain, I did enjoy their choice of villain for the movie. No, not The Mandarin; Iron Man 3 isn't a Mandarin movie. It's an Extremis movie. And if you ask me, they did a very fine job adapting Extremis to film.
  10. Havac Former Moderator

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2005
    star 7
    Am I the only one who's more upset that Uli didn't even melt the cheese?
    Ulicus, Cynical_Ben and Gorefiend like this.
  11. TrakNar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2011
    star 5
    I still say that he should add grape jelly and mustard.
    Gorefiend likes this.
  12. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5

    Actually, the movie itself disproves your theory, because the biggest most impressive action scene in the movie has him not even being in the suit. We've established that Pepper can pretty adequately be Iron Man, and Rhodey can be War Machine, arguably Iron Man with a different allegiance and a bigger gun.

    Ugh, to me it's not an Extremis movie either. In Extremis, Stark is able to use the same technology used by that hick guy to make the Extremis armor, which is really cool and could have been in the end of this movie, but they decided to kind of throw out the biggest part of that story that really matters to me.

    I've already spelled out my problems with Tony's character evolution in that to me his decision makes no actual sense. Tony's not afraid of aliens, he's afraid of not being able to stop the aliens from taking away from him the things that he loves. Ideally, having a large fighting force that's easily and remotely activated from your home base is pretty useful for fighting a large scale battle. How is Tony supposed to protect the people he cares about without any armor at all? He can still call himself Iron Man, but without the ability to protect the Earth and those he cares about he's practically useless. He accomplished almost nothing in Iron Man 3 without his armor. None of the Extremis people he dealt with out of the armor in that town died. All the people in the assault on the villa were low-rent goons hired to protect an actor. All of his actual accomplishments can be mostly tallied under either help by the suits or help while in the suit, or put under Pepper's box.

    Tony never saved the world without his suit. The suit was always there to do the big actions, whether he was in or out of it/them.
  13. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    On the Citizen Kane thing I have only one thing to say
    [IMG]
    To my understanding the movie is not about nature vs. technology, after all the avatars would never have been possible without technology, the message is more long the line of: don't let greed control your actions, respect people of other cultures and don't plunder nature
  14. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Nah, you're confusing marketing with story-telling, it's the former that aims to ramp up your expectations.

    As to Demon in a Bottle, have you read Fraction's run? [face_devil] Quite seriously, I didn't find that story bad but suspect I'd be less impressed if I read it now. Superheroes are about quick resolution and often an insulation from consequences - for instance, how many companies has Stark built and wrecked in the comics by now? He should be built into every venture capitalist's database as on a level with Homer Simpson!
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Mar 8, 2014
  15. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    One line at the end of the movie has long made me side (not exactly with Quaritch and co, or against the Navi) but against Jake and his little band of race traitors- "The aliens went back to their dying home. Only a few were chosen to stay."
  16. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    If we think about the crimes the aliens had done and was planning to do; throwing them out of the planet seems reasonable, even lenient.
    Last edited by Gamiel, Mar 8, 2014
  17. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
  18. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    If it had been the Navi making that decision, it would be more palitable. But they were falling back before Noble white man Jake rallied them against his own species, potentially dooming his home world because he hooked up with a local girl. Yes, the Hometree thing was a fiasco. It could have been handled a lot better- slant mining perhaps? And given the value of unobtanium, Earth is not going to respond well to being kicked off the planet to die. They are going to send in the troops.

    The first fight was even because the PMC on planet had a single major piece of military hardware- the Dragon. Even with the spindly starships they use, the military could just come along with a canister of tungsten blocks and drop them out of orbit next time.
    Last edited by AdmiralWesJanson, Mar 8, 2014
  19. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Going to throw this in here.....

    Anyone who likes the X-Wing books and is considering a different spin on Trek that is stupidly ambitious could do far worse than check out this....

    Star Trek: Vanguard

    Kirk and the Enterprise are present at the start and end, but outside of that it's new and existing characters who get woven into a very ambitious tapestry of a tale.

    The first part is Books 1-3 and arguably the subsequent books never quite match this trio for sheer verve and nerve.

    A second arc might be said to be Books 4-5 which deals with the fallout from the finale of arc1 and builds on it.

    The final arc is a short story collection then Books 6-7, which bring it to a quite cataclysmic close.

    The series is done by 3 authors, David Mack, Dayton Ward and Kevin Gilmore, with the books alternating - Mack does Books 1, 3, 5, 7 - Ward-Gilmore handle the evens. It makes for an interesting mix of styles. It also uses continuity effectively as this is practically a side story across the 3 years of the Original Series, but then adds in nods to the future with characters like Gorkon, Chang and Duras, while the Breen and Cardassians get a mention. It's a smart, entertaining read that's well worth checking out.

    Books 1-3 you'd be best to grab as eBooks, as the printed copies are prohibitively pricey. The others are easily available. It ran from 2005 to 2012 and will be spawning a successor series from the same creative team entitled Seekers starting August 2014, with a second book September 2014.

    Books are:

    1. Harbinger
    2. Summon the Thunder
    3. Reap the Whirlwind
    4. Open Secrets
    5. Precipice
    6. What Judgements Come
    7. Storming Heaven
    Declassified fits inbetween Books 5-6.
  20. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    What do you mean and how is Earth doomed just because they can not get unobtainium?
    Fiasco? I think the word is tragedy
    I think you are confusing things; it is not Earth that is mining on Pandora, it is RDA, a megacorp, that is mining for unobtainium because they can sell if for a s***load of money. Earth will not die just because the economy takes a dip


    If they did that they would probably break international/planetary law and RDA's stock will fall hard even if they did not break any laws
    Last edited by Gamiel, Mar 9, 2014
  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Just watched 37 Days.

    It's quite superb and a masterclass in how to do a political story. It's also very cleverly cast, which you only realise on the end credits as the photos of the actual people are shown.



    Anyone who claims an interest in history or politics should definitely watch this. Actually, every one should watch this!
    Last edited by Jedi Ben, Mar 9, 2014
  22. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    So I just finished Mass Effect 2 (and Shadow Broker) without any teammates or Normandy crewmen dying. And I remained loyal to and rekindled my relationship with Liara T'Soni. PARAGON, MOTHAKRIFFA.
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  23. Kylun Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2008
    star 2
    Congratulations! [face_party] I did the Renegade thing once, just to do it, but ya Full Paragon/Save Everyone is the only way to go :cool:

    Reminds me how funny it was to see people in the forums at the time, always asking "Wait, you saved everyone? How u do that? Like half my team died." It was always easy to me: I cared about my squadmates too much to not find a way to save them all.
  24. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Congrats! I still think you're spoiled though, because when I did it we didn't have any DLC to encourage people not to cheat :p

    Although on that note, what did you think of LotSB?

    edit: ...was it supposed to be hard not to save everyone? I mean, I did it the first time without knowing it was particularly special. You do all the personal quests, then you actually save your crew when they tell you to save your crew. And you don't make stupid choices on the last mission. It's not much of an accomplishment :p
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Mar 9, 2014
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  25. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Apparently plenty of players make dumb choices like sending Jack into the vents or handing Mordin control of a fire team. Or they don't leave any heavy hitters to hold the line as you journey off to abort a fetal Mega-Terminator.

    Lair of the Shadow Broker was excellent- great call-backs to the original Mass Effect, interesting boss fights, and I got to reunite my standby squad from ME1- Shepard, Garrus, and Liara.