Have people forgotten WHAT kind of movie Star Wars actually is?

I think Lucas has done an exemplary job of setting the stage for the downfall of the republic, and I don't understand at all what it is you think we aren't getting.

The political climate is explained, the motivations make sense.

 

No, the crisis in AOTC is an outgrowth of that in TPM.

Name ONE place the movie says that.

You mean aside from the scenes in Palpatine's office? Aside from the scene between Padmé and the new Queen?

Only 2 things come out of the Office:
1) The Chancellor won't allow the break
2) The Jedi can't defend the Republic

Only 2 thing comes out of the Queen Jamilla scene:
1) Creating an army might provoke a war, though there may be no avoiding it.
2) Nute Gunray has been to the Supreme Court 4 times to no avail.

Seems to me that they're fed up with the Republic's stagnation and inefficiency.

Name ONE place the movie says that.

Some are Separatists because they are fed up with the Republic. Some are Loyalists because, as Queen Jamillia says, "The day we stop believing democracy can work, is the day we lose it."

Again, name one place is says why the Separatists are separatists.

Probably. Why does it matter?

Well, then who votes for the emergency powers? Who are Sid's backpocket guys? And why do all the seats appear filled?




EDIT: And yes, the hidden motivations make perfect sense. That is an excellent carry-over from TPM.

But nations and peoples aren't rallied around such motivations. There is always an ideology such as slavery which is trumpeted forward to shadow the hidden motivations. That ideology is missing entirely in AotC.

 

Name ONE place the movie says that.

Why do you need it to say it?

Only 2 things come out of the Office:
1) The Chancellor won't allow the break

No, he's saying he won't allow the break.

2) The Jedi can't defend the Republic

No, that there aren't enough of them to defend the Republic.

Only 2 thing comes out of the Queen Jamilla scene:
1) Creating an army might provoke a war, though there may be no avoiding it.
2) Nute Gunray has been to the Supreme Court 4 times to no avail.

And Queen Jamillia says that they must keep their faith in the Republic: the day they stop believing democracy can work is the day they lose it.

So what, exactly, is your complaint?

Name ONE place the movie says that.

Why do you need it said? The stagnation of the Republic in TPM, and the events of AOTC stemming from that, aren't enough for you?

Again, name one place is says why the Separatists are separatists.

You mean aside from Padmé, Palpatine, Queen Jamillia, etc., referring to them as Separatists?

Even when something is flat-out said onscreen, it's still not enough for you?

Well, then who votes for the emergency powers?

The people who call "vote now, vote now!"

Who are Sid's backpocket guys?

Aside from Dooku and (unwittingly) the Separatists?

And why do all the seats appear filled?

Why wouldn't they be?

But nations and peoples aren't rallied around such motivations. There is always an ideology such as slavery which is trumpeted forward to shadow the hidden motivations. That ideology is missing entirely in AotC.

No it isn't. The motivations are power/greed or simply wanting a system that works.

 

Yes, I know he won't allow - that is exactly what I wrote. My point was - THAT'S ALL THAT COMES OUT.

And bloody yes, we know the Separatists are Separatists because they want they want to SEPERATE. BUT WHY WHY WHY DO THEY WANT TO? IT IS NOT IN THE MOVIE!!!!!!

 

Because the Republic has grown corrupt and ineefectual.

 

It's in the book Gomer, not the movie.

I'm not the only one who feels the Battle of Geonosis is pointless and unemotional. Which is a shame, because visually, it is incredible...

Plot matters.

 

It's in the movie as well.

Personally, I had no trouble feeling the wieght of things in the battle of Geonosis.

 

It's in the book Gomer, not the movie.

Yes it is in the movie. The events of AOTC are an outgrowth of the events in TPM.

I'm not the only one who feels the Battle of Geonosis is pointless and unemotional.

And I'm not the only one who feels that the battles of Yavin and Hoth are dragged out much too long. What's your point?

 

" BUT I will say, the stories of Anakin and Obi-Wan have been very well developed. It is a shining highpoint of the PT, and a saving grace - as that IS the primary story. I can't sit here and honestly slander something with 95% perfect. "

We agree on this thats for sure, because that is the primary strength of the PT and to zero in on it, its Macregors' acting which really solidifies the entire PT. Not that Hayden is any way bad, but Macregor has really proven that he is a quality actor in the PT and its always been my contention that the PT really opened the door for him and will be the catalyst for him to be more than just a " good actor ", but an iconic one when its all said and done. Its funny that an already talented actor was cast for SW and is able to showcase his versatility, hence enabling him to have the ecclectic(sp?) career that he obviously wanted, whereas other established actors feared that it would be a one way ticket to typecasting. It took Depp ( whom I believe Ewan is on par with and is the English counterpart of ) quite a while to achieve this in his career and perhaps thats because he never took a mainstream chance early on. I believe both will be in the pantheon of legendary actors when their careers are over and some already consider Depp to be the heir apparent to Jack Nicholsens' acting throne in America. Ewan may be even more versatile than Depp, and is clearly in line to be the next stud in the UK, taking the mantle from Michael Caine and Peter O'Toole.

 

No, it is not in the movie.

And way to go, Shelley - you managed to attack something else instead of defending your opinion.


Severian - yeah, MacGregor is awesome. I finally saw Big Fish this weekend and I loved it. I thought Hayden did really well, and I really like Jake Lloyd as well. The Anakin story has been very good, minus what I mentioned earlier which is probably on the cutting room floor.

 

Yes, it is in the movie.

 

Where? Where in the movie does it say the Separatists are Separatists because the Republic in corrupt and ineffective?

 

Lucas is showing, not telling.

Seriously, they start out by showing a corrupt and ineffectual government in TPM. In AOTC, they explain that the Separatists are looking to succeed from the Republic.

Later on, the leader of the Separatist, Count Dukoo talks to Obi-Wan about how corrupt the Republic has become.

Do you really need for Lucas to draw you a diagram?

 

LOL

I think you've hit an all-time high on the Private Pyle scale with that retort. It's almost as good as, "It's not the story he's trying to tell."

Sorry, but you can't show a 'political ideology.' And his chance to SHOW the Separatists leaving would've been a half-empty Senate, which it is not. Even the hidden motive isn't discussed among the TF groups, outside of their introduction and obvious common interest in greed - we have no idea why they want to take over the Republic.

In TPM, it is covered well. But in AOTC, the fact that they want to secede 10 years later based on that theme is NEVER broached.

Dooku only tells Obi-Wan of the corruption in the Senate as it relates to the Sith Lord. Surely you aren't suggesting that Dooku ran around the outlying systems claiming the Republic was run by the Sith?

Dooku however DOES imply to Padme that corruption IS the Separatist cause in a deleted scene. But it was cut.

The final analysis is the audience is forced to truly search for ANY reason for the civil war, the military creation act and the underlying forces at work against the Republic. The Macro story is non-existent, and as such, the actions of the characters in that have less meaning...

 

Being that they all pretty much seem to be money oriented systems I think pretty much DOES show you and not tell you what the Seperatist ideology is. Maybe not very clearly, but clear enough.

 

The hidden motive can be construed with assumption. I said that earlier.

But to the public, there is always an ideology - even if the hidden motive is the cause. Wars are not fought only because rich men want to get richer, at least, they aren't sold that way.

 

" Wars are not fought only because rich men want to get richer, at least, they aren't sold that way. "

It seems to me that thats the ONLY reason that wars are fought these days and the fact that thay are sold to us in the various different forms that they have been sold to us since the Korean conflict only makes the amiguous " Clone Wars " that much more powerful.

 

And way to go, Shelley - you managed to attack something else instead of defending your opinion.

Eh? You said:

I'm not the only one who feels the Battle of Geonosis is pointless and unemotional.

as if that proves something. I used that same angle when I said:

And I'm not the only one who feels that the battles of Yavin and Hoth are dragged out much too long. What's your point?

I wasn't "attacking" anything. I was pointing out that despite you saying "I'm not the only one who feels the Battle of Geonosis is pointless and unemotional" as if that proves it is, you weren't proving anything.

I think you've hit an all-time high on the Private Pyle scale with that retort. It's almost as good as, "It's not the story he's trying to tell."

Say wha-?

Sorry, but you can't show a 'political ideology.'

Why not?

And his chance to SHOW the Separatists leaving would've been a half-empty Senate, which it is not.

How do you know half the Senate are Separatists, or did you just assume it so you can turn around and say, "Lucas didn't show half the Senate are Separatists!"

Even the hidden motive isn't discussed among the TF groups, outside of their introduction and obvious common interest in greed

Greed is a motive.

- we have no idea why they want to take over the Republic.

Because the Republic no longer functions, at least, not to their satisfaction.

In TPM, it is covered well. But in AOTC, the fact that they want to secede 10 years later based on that theme is NEVER broached.

It's not 10 years later. It's been building for quite some time, as is established in the opening scrawl.

Dooku only tells Obi-Wan of the corruption in the Senate as it relates to the Sith Lord. Surely you aren't suggesting that Dooku ran around the outlying systems claiming the Republic was run by the Sith?

Dooku however DOES imply to Padme that corruption IS the Separatist cause in a deleted scene. But it was cut.

The final analysis is the audience is forced to truly search for ANY reason for the civil war,

Not really. It's apparent unless you're trying to slant the evidence to support the conclusion you've already drawn.

the military creation act and the underlying forces at work against the Republic.

Like the Seperatists, who, unknowingly except for Dooku, are really working for Palpatine. He wants to create a war.

The Macro story is non-existent,

How so?

and as such, the actions of the characters in that have less meaning...

Wait, I thought they had no meaning, by your estimate.

It seems to me that thats the ONLY reason that wars are fought these days and the fact that thay are sold to us in the various different forms that they have been sold to us since the Korean conflict only makes the amiguous " Clone Wars " that much more powerful.

Right. There's a pretense of "this is for a noble cause," and many people even believe it. But among the various leaders, there is no pretense -- the war is fought for greed.

 

Right. There's a pretense of "this is for a noble cause," and many people even believe it. But among the various leaders, there is no pretense -- the war is fought for greed.

EXACTLY! There is a PRETENSE, an ideology which war and political strife is sold on.

I can visually assume the private motive is greed and power based on the introduction of the Separatist Council. Not from the scroll, which does not say WHY. But I can visually construe that through assumption.

That is the hidden motive.

That is NOT THE PRETENSE, and is NOT THE IDEOLOGY.

For example, the American Civil War was fought over slaves or the right to secede, right? Wrong.

It was really instigated as a means for northern non-slave states to acquire cheap labor forces and give them an economical advantage. It also allowed the US Government to build a large standing army and Lincoln himself used the words, "Grand Army of the Republic."

Whilst the powers that be played their game of puppets, the every day citizen and general populace believed that the Civil War was only about slavery. A very real issue, true. But that issue was used to create a front for hidden political/economic agendas.

Dooku is NOT going from system to system saying let's break away because "we are greedy." Nor are the debates and the politicing within the Republic vocalizing that issue.


This is not a failing Republic. This is a poor excuse for a very very complex story. You've come up with implied allusions at best.

You call me unreasonable, but you have the audacity to claim the political story is perfectly obvious and well developed WITHOUT A SINGLE PIECE OF DIALOGUE IN THE MOVIE as to why Separatists are Separatists. It's like telling a story to a Martian about Republicans and Democrats and never saying who believes in what.

 

" For example, the American Civil War was fought over slaves or the right to secede, right? Wrong.

It was really instigated as a means for northern non-slave states to acquire cheap labor forces and give them an economical advantage. It also allowed the US Government to build a large standing army and Lincoln himself used the words, "Grand Army of the Republic." "

You are correct that the primary reason was so that the North could gain an economical advantage, but it was definetly not the only reason, and freeing the slaves was AT LEAST the 3rd objective of that war, which I know is horrible, but THEIR were hundreds of thousands of humanitarians that saw that war as " freeing the slaves " and nothing else and we shouldnt take away from their noble motive. The greedy North Easterners are paying for it now anyway because every time we produce a candidate for President he either gets laughed out of the election because their liberatarian stances just dont gell with Southern politics and Southern swing states as a direct result of the Civil War or they just get shot if they are perceived as true force of change.
EDIT:
Anyway you look at it, for better or worse, racism as a political issue was both the cause of that war - directly AND indirectly and was ultimately the result of that war, directly AND indirectly. Its whats going to stay with us much longer than the economics. We need to screw until we are all one color before the effects of that war are finally subsided, and I have absolutely no problem with that. If that war had one positive effect on North Eastern Caucasians of the this generation and the last its that good loving comes in all shades.

 

... THEIR were hundreds of thousands of humanitarians that saw that war as " freeing the slaves " and nothing else and we shouldnt take away from their noble motive.

I'm not at all taking away.

I'm saying that evil people hide behind noble motives. That is as true today as a hundred years ago as a thousand years ago.

That Noble Motive is missing from the Clone Wars.

Even the secret agenda is barely gleamed.

 

The Noble Motive being to keep the Separatists from ripping the Republic in two?

It's plainly stated by Palpatine.

The secret agenda will be made abundantly clear in Episode III.

 

That's one side. The side of the North.

What is the side of the Separatists? The South.

 

No argument there, Hud. Its a little different with the Civil War in that I believe that Lincolns' agenda was America as a world power, which couldnt be the worlds perception of us with such a barbaric institition as slavery, especially since the European Nations had abolished it for quite awhile at that point.

 

Bless you.

Mind you, the OT had an unfair advantage. Even less time was given the macro development. But "freedom" is a noble motive, a motive that we as an audience easily relate to and rally immediately to support - "freedom from tyranny."

Personally, I wish the Republic did not have anti-slavery laws and that Padme or Palpatine had outlawed slavery in the 10 years between TPM and AOTC. The greedy Separatists want to split because of their slave labor - and POW - everybody can follow it. Even Anakin would take a personal interest in the conflict. Part of me believes that was an original concept that somehow got left by the wayside.

That's what disappoints me the most. AOTC had all the potential to blow Spidey and LOTR and every movie ever out of the water...