Have some fans come down too hard on Lucas about TPM?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TheJediCharles, Jan 23, 2002.

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  1. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
  2. Bossk_BountyHunter Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 3
    Some fans have.Some haven't.
  3. Menlu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 2001
    star 2
    Definitely.

    Some people see SW as "theirs" and that just isn't right (IMO at least).
    The saga is GL's to do with as he pleases, and I admire him for sticking with the SW project for almost 30 years of his entire life.
  4. Nrf-Hrdr Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2000
    star 4
    Depends how you define 'bashing' and 'mean-spirited', really.
  5. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    "Depends how you define 'bashing' and 'mean-spirited', really"

    Well, vote your experience and your conscience. I could define it to a hole in the ground but there would still be ways people could take it one way or the other. Just vote like you see it here, your interpretations.
  6. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    No, not enough people critizes him enough. (some of the die hard gushers)
  7. Royal_Guard Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    There were definite flaws with Episode I, I will admit that much. However, I feel critics were too harsh, and many people expected far too much. I think that people fail to realize that, for the most part, Episode I was purely exposition. All the events that occurred in this first installment were merely catalysts for everything that is to happen later (i.e. introduction of key characters - anakin, kenobi, padme, even Qui Gon and his death; the beginning of the dissolution of the Senate and Palpatine's rise to power, etc.). All these events, essentially, did what George Lucas wanted them to do; and that was show us "where it all began" and to give us some kind of explanation. The true development and plot, I like to believe, is saved for the next two films, using Episode I as a sort of base or starting point.
  8. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Before you bash Lucas, you should try creating your own fantasy epic. I have, so that gives me the right to criticise Lucas.
    :D
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It´s me and you then, Duckman! Strange though, that I don´t feel any need to criticise GL although I have the right to do so. :confused:
  10. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    But first concider how less likely you might have made your own epic if never inspired by Star Wars and Lucas in the first place....


    THEN criticise Lucas.
  11. Nrf-Hrdr Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2000
    star 4
    If you're a tolkien fan, probably not much less likely at all.
  12. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    True, but tolkin fans shouldn't be burdening the hardcore fans with their excessive gripes about Lucas, if they are indeed just tolken fans.

    If you know what I mean.
  13. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Get off Lucas's back! He's an artist, you monsters!
    :D
  14. Darth_Racer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 2
    Did any of you see the Lucas Bio on A&E las night? It was great.....Lucas you're the MAN !
  15. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I was really disappointed with the Biography piece on Lucas. GL is so good at mythologizing his own bio, but it's surprising to see the tv show swallow the pr mythology whole without any real questions.

    First, there is no evidence that GL planned or wrote sequels for ANH before ANH became a monster hit. And it is patently false that GL sat down in 75 or 76 and wrote out a humongous script that he then divided into three movies (or six movies, or nine movies or whatever). All the basic plotlines that are so key to the series, such as Vader being Luke's father, were invented after the fact, after ANH became a record-breaking megahit and GL realized he could keep making Star Wars movies for the rest of his life.

    I also disliked the way they kept showing footage from the special editions to illustrate the groundbreaking effects in the original trilogy. That was unforgiveable in my opinion.
  16. MountainMan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 3
    Is it even debatable that a lot of fans have gone way over the top with their criticism? You know, the more I read the basher arguments, the more I'm convinced they would have absolutely hated A New Hope had they been around in their present mind when it was released.

    Jabbadabbado wrote:
    First, there is no evidence that GL planned or wrote sequels for ANH before ANH became a monster hit.

    The evidence is the fact that Lucas has always said that there was no question in his mind that there would be sequels. Or are you flat out calling Lucas a liar?

    And it is patently false that GL sat down in 75 or 76 and wrote out a humongous script that he then divided into three...

    And I suppose you have evidence refuting this well known fact? No? Well, I specifically remember reading this same fact on the back of A New Hope trading card way back in 1977. But then again, you're not above calling Lucas a liar.

    I also disliked the way they kept showing footage from the special editions to illustrate the groundbreaking effects in the original trilogy.

    Actually, they showed a mixture of both the OT and SE, but the Special Editions are so seamlessly blended that even I have trouble telling them apart from the originals! At the same time, when the Special Editions were released, the use of digital effects and computer generated imagary on that scale was ground breaking, so it is valid to show the Special Editions as evidence that Star Wars has always been on the cutting edge of special effects technology.

    Ironically enough, sir, your needless criticism of George Lucas (indeed, your needless criticism of his biography!) has just proven what 72% of us (at the time of this writing) already knew.
  17. Riley Man Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 5
    I think what they actually said was that he wrote the story outline in full during 1975. I even remember them saying "it was later that the detailed scripts for the next episodes were written". From my understanding, they got it right.

    I did notice them using special edition footage as well, and thinking it was rather misleading -- but it's not like they were lying when they said the special effects were extraordinary for the time. ;)
  18. Nrf-Hrdr Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2000
    star 4
    "And it is patently false that GL sat down in 75 or 76 and wrote out a humongous script that he then divided into three movies"

    I think there is some truth in it, it's just been simplified and sanitised to turn it into a nice story. I think the truth is one of his first drafts had early versions of scenes that ended up in all three films in roughly consecutive order. As the drafts progressed, he kept some of some ideas and got rid of others, which he brought back when he got the opportunity to make some sequels, though the actual story in that draft had next to nothing to do with the finished films.

    Lucas definately wanted to do sequels, though; several of the early scripts were labelled 'episode 1'. I certainly have a hard time believing that he had the entire story as we know it mapped out in 75; the characters and general story changed almost totally nearly every draft he wrote.

    Man, I just can't get enough of talking about those early drafts.
  19. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    A week into Star Wars' release in 77 George knew he'd be making sequels. But it was not until ESB was in production that we started hearing about a 9-part series. Then later of course it became a six-part series. The dialogue of Star Wars and ROTJ is the clearest proof that the most integral element of the storyline, the familial bond between Vader, Luke and Leia, was not invented until GL sat down to map out the story of ESB in 77 or 78. Also the fact that the "Episode IV A New Hope" was not added to the opening crawl until Star Wars' final theatrical release before ESB opened.

    I've read all the "Starkiller" drafts as well as a very good analysis of the different drafts, and I think every serious fan should read them too. As Nrf Hrd remarks, some ideas rejected for Star Wars survive and show up in later films, but it was just a script for one movie.

    Yes, GL is basically a liar.

  20. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    "Yes, GL is basically a liar."

    What truth does he owe YOU? Why don't you just quit liking anything he makes so you don't have to find youself so let down by your own gift for digging up 'the truth'?

    This sort of remark is precisely the inspiration of this poll in the first place.
  21. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    I'm just going under the basic assumption that lying is immoral, even when done for the purpose of creating your own personal legend about yourself and your business empire, and your moviemaking prowess, and so on.

    But none of this detracts from the achievement of the OT. I don't care that he didn't think up the whole story in advance of writing each episode's final script. I just would like him to set the record straight.
  22. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Lucas wrote all kinds of drafts for SW, which he always planned to make into a saga. He changed his mind a lot about the next two chapters, but that doesn't mean he didn't intend to make them at all, just that he changed his mind about what direction he was going to take him. Originally he planned to make SW a story about two Jedi Knights, Annikin (sic) Starkiller and Luke Skywalker. It wasn't until later that he decided to make Anakin be Luke's father, a fallen Jedi knight, etc.

    If you wish to think of Lucas as a liar, go ahead. I might point out that you've exaggerated, if not flat-out lied, many times yourself in your quest to badmouth TPM, so I'd ask you to get off your high horse.
  23. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Remember that ad hominem attacks don't cut it here, and that you should be banned for them, Shelly. My facts may not always be accurate, but I never intentionally misstate the truth. GL is trying to create "the myth of Lucasfilm" for posterity. History has a greater interest in whether GL is a liar than whether I am.
  24. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    In your opinion, he's trying to create "the myth of Lucasfilm." I saw nothing dishonest about what the A&E bio said. Lucas always planned to make SW a multi-part story; he just changed his mind a lot about what he was going to make that story be. From what I understand, he condensed his original script down to one movie because he had no idea whether it would be a hit, whether there would be a demand for the other parts of the story, not to mention whether there would be enough money to finance them.

    And I didn't attack you. You were the one who was getting all lofty about lying, and I merely pointed out that there have been times when you've bent the truth a time or two yourself.
  25. TravCon12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 1998
    star 3
    Whether GL is knowingly lying about himself and the process he went through in creating SW is a matter of your opinion, and simply stating that as fact is wrong Jabba.

    Again I find it funny that the bashers/detractors can villify GL and assasinate his character, but if a fellow member of the JC even for a second calls into question something that they have said, oh they demand bannings and apologies.
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