Have some fans come down too hard on Lucas about TPM?

Direct quotes don't mean a thing anyway Lucas's VERY own ROTJ Story proves that! With all that garbage about uncle Owen being Obi-Wans brother..Whatever George.

Hmmm...I seem to have missed that version of Return of the Jedi.

Jabbadabbado
George Lucas the director is a yes man to the George Lucas business empire. He has become exactly what he never wanted to be - a slave to a big studio.

Dude, you've really lost it now. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Lucas is just a hard working kid from Modesto, California who happens to own the largest private studio in Hollywood and who makes movies just because that's what he enjoys doing? I mean, what's with all these sinister undertones you keep fabricating? Or are you just a troll talking sh|t in order to get folks all riled up? That seems more likely considering how illogical your arguments are.

 

Regarding
"Direct quotes don't mean a thing anyway Lucas's VERY own ROTJ Story proves that! With all that garbage about uncle Owen being Obi-Wans brother..Whatever George.

Hmmm...I seem to have missed that version of Return of the Jedi."




Page 66 from the book, Ben Talking to Luke "So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine".

I'm almost certain the scene was filmed but was cut at the last minute because the film was too long.

 

--Page 66 from the book, Ben Talking to Luke "So I took you to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine".--
Lucas did not write the book. James Kahn did.

--I'm almost certain the scene was filmed but was cut at the last minute because the film was too long.--
Um...okay. Even so, why would it matter? The point is, it wasn't in the movie.

 

Uh mean..... fictional stories can changebefore they're done?

 

Here's an interesting question: do some fans view criticism of George Lucas as a personal attack on their own fandom?

By the way, GL did not "just happen" to become a billionaire or the head of a large studio. He worked it. He made it happen. He made his business interests paramount and subordinated his artistic calling to his business goals.

There is nothing sinister about it. Lucas is a business man. At some point he became more interested in being a big studio mogul and absolute dictator of an entertainment conglomerate than in being a director of quality films. He has become what he used to despise.

 

At some point he became more interested in being a big studio mogul and absolute dictator of an entertainment conglomerate than in being a director of quality films. He has become what he used to despise.

It's inflamatory attacks like this that I have an issue with. Why are you so desperate to paint Lucas as nothing more than a two faced marketing stooge who doesn't give a flip about the quality of his films? Is this your own futile attempt to explain away the fact that you have clearly outgrown Star Wars? "Why, I can't have become too cynical to enjoy Star Wars. I know, it's George Lucas' fault! That two faced bastard has sold out his vision to become what he despises. Yeah, that's it!"

If you really have Lucas pegged the way you act like you, you should be writing psychology papers and receiving awards and what not. I mean, really, do you have any actual imperical evidence besides your own baseless accusations? Bear in mind, repeating the same thing over and over again is not the same as proving it. So instead of chasing your tail, try providing some real facts to support your claims.

[Edit]
And I the think the main question of this thread has been answered "Yes!" so thoroughly by example that further debate is pointless.
[/Edit]

 

Yep, Northstar, that's the one. Only there was nothng "implied" about it. GL said nine films. I've heard mixed stories as to why that was changed, later.


Direct quotes don't mean a thing anyway Lucas's VERY own ROTJ Story proves that! With all that garbage about uncle Owen being Obi-Wans brother..Whatever George.

Hmmm...I seem to have missed that version of Return of the Jedi.

It's on the shooting script. The "Ben on the log" scene. In the script, he goes into detail about hiding the twins, and mentions it there. So, yes, originally, it was GL's idea to have Owen and Ben be related.

 

The "Ben on the log" scene. In the script, he goes into detail about hiding the twins, and mentions it there. So, yes, originally, it was GL's idea to have Owen and Ben be related.

Yes, it may have been written and may have actually been filmed and only cut for time purposes, but I'm confused: why does it bother you so much?

 

The New York Times once did a piece on GL's marketing timetable for the period leading from the special editions to the release of TPM. This would have been in 97 or 98. It was a chart connecting all the marketing efforts of all the business units in all media, and of course GL was furious that NYTs got hold of it, since the Lucas holdings are not publicly traded.

But it demonstrated a level of marketing sophistication that puts the likes of Disney and AOL/Time Warner to shame.

The man is one of the most extraordinary business moguls of his time. But unfortunately, it's impossible to be everything.

GL has said that he does not devote the same level of resources to his own movies as he does to special effects projects for other studios' films. By definition, he lets budget concerns and marketing decisions dictate the look and feel of his movies. He said again as a direct quote from the 60 Minutes interview that he put Jar Jar into the movie to appeal to little children.

All I'm saying is that GL is a business man first, and a movie maker second. I'm not saying he's evil, or that he's a bad person, but that as a result Star Wars is not as good as it could have been, and has not been as good as it could have been since ESB.

 

"Bear in mind, repeating the same thing over and over again is not the same as proving it"

Oh, I don't know about that. Using that method, George seems to have "proven" (at least to the gushers) that he "always" wanted wanted Greedo to shoot first, and that Leigh Bracket made no contribution to the ESB script, and that Skywalking is completely inaccurate ...

 

Yes, it may have been written and may have actually been filmed and only cut for time purposes, but I'm confused: why does it bother you so much?

Doesn't bother me. It makes more sense to have Owen's connect to Anakin be as it is now (I'm not sure if that's a spoiler, so I won't mention how they are connect). Northstar said it was GL's original idea, Shelley refuted it, so I was just backing Northstar's claim. That's all.

 

First of all Jabba, you have to have assume that everyone agrees that TPM is a drop in quality to the OT for your statement to be taken as true.

TPM's quality is a matter of objective interpretation. What is good to 1 person can be horrible to another and vice versa.

I for 1 believe, and I know I will catch flak for this, that TPM is just as much a quality product as ANH, ROTJ, and oh my gawd, gasp, horror, ESB. Artistically, thematically, technically and in every other way equal to and in some cases superior to the OT.

Feel free to disagree with my taste, and in my sense of what is good or bad art, but that does not make your assessment of TPM or Lucas a universal truth.

 

hey, that last guy's right!

 

Jabbadabbado said "All I'm saying is that GL is a business man first, and a movie maker second. I'm not saying he's evil, or that he's a bad person, but that as a result Star Wars is not as good as it could have been ... "

There is plenty of evidence to support this part of Jabba's statement; TPM was released with rushed special effects and a chopped up score, which means that when George had to choose between releasing the film on time (the financially right thing to do) and getting it right (the artistically right thing to do), he chose releasing it on time.

 

"I for 1 believe, and I know I will catch flak for this, that TPM is just as much a quality product... "

It's unfortunate that so many compliments have to be prefaced with shelter from bashers.

TravCon12, say your compliment with pride all you like and don't even acknowledge 'them' as being worthy of mentioning in the same breath. That's how 'they' want it.

And don't give 'them' as much credit as calling it 'flak'. Try 'crap' or 'drivel'.

 

"Here's an interesting question: do some fans view criticism of George Lucas as a personal attack on their own fandom?

By the way, GL did not "just happen" to become a billionaire or the head of a large studio. He worked it. He made it happen. He made his business interests paramount and subordinated his artistic calling to his business goals.

There is nothing sinister about it. Lucas is a business man. At some point he became more interested in being a big psolute dictator of an entertainment conglomerate than in being a director of quality films. He has become what he used to despise. "


You're completely ignorign why the first Star Wars movie was such a success. it was an out of nowhere phenomenon. You don't 'plan' that and even if you do, you still need luck for it to happen.

James Cameron didn't 'plan' for Titanic to make 1.8 billion dollars - I'm sure he's happy that it did, but no one with any sense thought it woudl make even half that.

I have no doubt that Lucas works hard at being a success, but I still see no proof that money is what he cares about most. if that were really true he'd have shifted to something much more stable and sure than moviemaking by now.

Lucas also didn't 'plan' for Star Wars merchandise to be as popular as it is. He benefitted from so many fan's desire to buy so much Star Wars stuff, but in 1977 no one had any idea that companies could make a lot of money that way. Fox didnt' realize it either, otherwise they would have taken the merchandising rights for themselves.


is promoting the development of digital filmmaking another way for him to make money? It seems to me that there are other comanies that actually make and sell the equipment. Yet a lot of Lucasfilm's efforts seems to be to promote the use of digital cameras.

What about THX? Is that another huge moneymaking scam?


I don't think you're personally attacking Lucas, just think you're making wildly speculative claims with little in the way of support for those claims.

 

"I still see no proof that money is what he cares about most. if that were really true he'd have shifted to something much more stable and sure than moviemaking by now."

He did; it's called special effects.

"is promoting the development of digital filmmaking another way for him to make money?"

Of course it is; Lucasfilm/ILM develops software for use with digital filmmaking, so naturally they would want to promote something that is likely to result in higher sales of their software.

 

I don't think you're personally attacking Lucas, just think you're making wildly speculative claims with little in the way of support for those claims.

Actually, that's an excellent way to put it.

First of all Jabba, you have to have assume that everyone agrees that TPM is a drop in quality to the OT for your statement to be taken as true.

Another excellent point.

I, for one, believe that the prequels are a step up in quality from the Original Trilogy, at least in terms of filmmaking and visual effects, but they're actually on the same level when it comes to narrative and characters. The flaws in TPM, which bashers find so unforgivable, are the exact same flaws that are present all throughout the Original Trilogy, and in spades at that!

I've pointed this out before, but the quote in my signature is actually from a 1977 review of A New Hope. It's ironic that many bashers would vehemently disagree with this characterization of ANH yet they have no qualms about piling it on when it comes to TPM. This leads me to the logical conclussion that had The Phantom Menace been released in 1977 and A New Hope in 1999, the bashers would be complaining how A New Hope was a childishly inferior film that didn't live up to the excellent standards set by The Phantom Menace!

 

--and that Leigh Bracket made no contribution to the ESB script,--
What the hell...when did Lucas ever say that? He gave her a friggin' story credit!

I just love when bashers pull stuff straight out of their nether regions.

 

There is plenty of evidence to support this part of Jabba's statement;--
No there isn't. There's a bunch of opinions.

--TPM was released with rushed special effects and a chopped up score,--
Gee, I thought it was released with wonderful effects and a great score.

--which means that when George had to choose between releasing the film on time (the financially right thing to do) and getting it right (the artistically right thing to do), he chose releasing it on time.--
Your proof?

 

I agree, Shelly. You know, some real evidence would be nice instead of vague references to 20 year old magazine articles and slanderous speculation based on little more than an obvious dislike for the man.

 

I think the trouble with George Lucas is that he's got two personalities, one which is George the business man, an the other is George the artist, and those are two very conflicting personalities. There are some areas in The Phantom Menace, and in the Classic trilogy, and, to a lesser extent, Indiana Jones, where George Lucas the business man stepped in and made the decisions, but there are some areas in The Phantom Menace, the Classic tirlogy, and the Indiana Jones, where George Lucas the artist stepped in and made the decisions, and to the most part, it's my view that George has managed to keep most of his artistic integrity (I can't spell!) while making The Phantom Menace, and most of the other films he's worked on. However, it's hard, without seeing Attack of the Clones and Episode III, whether some of the decisions he made in The Phantom Menace where for the business side of things or the artistic, but, probably on the whole, it was on the artistic side. This post probably doesn't make much sense, but that's what I think about George Lucas, and even though I think he could have made The Phantom Menace a whole lot better, I respect him greatly as a director, and do think that some people have come down too hard on him, and I hope with Attack of the Clones, which from what I've seen seems to be a far more ambitious film than The Phantom Menace, will redress the balance on people's opinion as him as a director. I hope that all made sense!

 

Almost everything I think about GL comes from quotes he has made or from the actual results of his work.

There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that GL skimps on Star Wars special effects, borrowing heavily from the really hard work ILM does for other movies. (interviews with ex ILM employees, Lucas 60 minutes interview, 1999, TPM DVD).

There is evidence to support the idea that whenever GL changes his mind about the series he tries to cover his tracks and coopt the historical record about what he has said in the past ("Greedo was always meant to shoot first" "It's a 9 part series." "It's a 6 part series." "I'm delaying the DVD to do something really special").

There is evidence to support the idea that Jar Jar was more a marketing decision than an artistic necessity (60 minutes profile, 1999). There is evidence to support the idea that GL has the most sophisticated marketing operation among all the big movie studios (New York Times article 1997 or 1998).

Does GL care about quality: of course. Did GL get really lucky with the first Star Wars, and was Star Wars a highly personal film that came out of all his youthful interests and intellectual pursuits: of course. But did GL sideline his directorial efforts to convert his Star Wars profits into a multi-billion dollar fortune and a huge entertainment corporation? Absolutely. Did GL work his ass off to become a multibillionaire and one of the top 100 richest people in the world? Of course. Has GL worked ceaselessly to protect his intellectual property and turn the pop culture phenomenon of Star Wars into one of the most valuable licensing brand names in history? Yes.

What does this all mean? My personal opinion is that Star Wars has benefitted on the tech side from the Lucas business empire, but suffered on the artistic side . It's only my opinion.

 

?He gave [Leigh] a friggin' story credit!?

And in recent years he has gone on record numerous times suggesting that Leigh?s entire script was tossed and re-written by Lucas and Kasdan?and that the screenplay credit was more a sympathetic gesture as a result of her death than an accurate measure of her contribution. I have a feeling this is mentioned in the annotated screenplays?but if you don?t believe me, ask around?I am right about this.

?Gee, I thought it was released with wonderful effects and a great score."

Which is your OPINION, not fact. The fact is that some of the effects are dodgy, particularly during the Gungan battle, and I?m 100% sure that there were a couple of articles released in which ILM staffer mentioned embarrassment at some of the rushed effects. The chopped up score is an absolute fact; John Williams himself expressed displeasure with what was done to his score as a result of Lucas refusing to lock picture. George did not wait for Williams to re-write the score to fit the picture, which would have worked better.

?which means that when George had to choose between releasing the film on time (the financially right thing to do) and getting it right (the artistically right thing to do), he chose releasing it on time.?
?Your proof??

OK, forget TPM for a second. The SE?s, which were released before ILM had a chance to completely fix the films. Stick your tapes in and take a look?the hexagonal matte lines are still there in the ESB space battles ...

 

So, Lucas changed his mind? You know what? He's entitled to! It's his story. Anne Rice has basically rewritten Interview with the Vampire 10 times over in subsequent novels. She's allowed to. It's her story. J.R.R. Tolkien, regretting the lack of attention given to the female characters in his trilogy, wrote The Silmarillion which had an abundance of female characters.

George Lucas is an artist and a filmmaker first. His business interests are second.

I personally think that TPM is on the same level as ANH. It's a good film. It works as the opening chapter of the Star Wars saga.