Have some fans come down too hard on Lucas about TPM?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TheJediCharles, Jan 23, 2002.

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  1. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --Um, no, and if that?s the story that George is telling now,--
    Is it? If he said it on the Biography I must've missed it...and I'm not saying that sarcastically, I did in fact get up to get a drink or go to the bathroom a couple of times during the broadcast.

    --You should disbelieve George?s tale because all of the evidence (the script, the editors? comments, logic, the sideways shot in the SE?s)--
    Can you provide this evidence, please?

    --strongly suggests that George is not telling the truth, and because George has a motive for lying. People were upset with the Greedo shoots first thing because it alters Han?s character arc and was a sign that George was influenced by the PC Police (or simply that he was losing his edge). If people don?t like the SE version, they won?t buy tickets or buy the videotape.--
    They did buy tickets and buy the videotape.

    --I would disagree with his choice as an artist and grumble about that, but I wouldn?t say that George has a character flaw (well, maybe just bad taste).--
    I doubt it. You'd just grumble at him for not being able to make up his mind.

    --I am claiming that Lucas is distributing an inferior product in order to make deadlines (which means he is choosing commerce over art).--
    With zero proof other than your opinion that he is.

    --The fact that the ESB and ROTJ SE?s were released before the fx work was completed is common knowledge (hence the necessity of an Ultimate Edition)?-
    They were released to meet a frickin' deadline, Bud Frescoe. Do you not understand the concept of DEADLINES?

    --also, if you look at the film, you can notice that the Hoth sequences were cleaned up properly, yet the matte lines in the space battles were not. It seems very unlikely that the fx people didn?t want to clean up the space battle matte lines, and very likely that they didn?t have time because they were forced to meet a deadline.--
    OK, you're going from proclaiming it as fact to saying "it seems very unlikely." And the deadline was already set...they were "forced" to meet it, if in fact they were "forced" to meet it, by the deadline itself, not by Lucas. Perhaps he had a conversation with the FX people (or they had a conversation amongst themselves) and it was agreed that though they all wanted to clean up the matte lines, it just wasn't feasible to meet the deadline...but it was okay, because another edition would be released down the line and they'd have time to do it.

    This is all supposition on my part, and I don't pretend otherwise. You proclaim stuff as fact based on what you see in the movie and what you want to believe.

    --I never said anything of the sort. I said that the evidence suggests that Scorsese chooses art over commerce, and Lucas chooses commerce over art.--
    Scorsese chose his version of art over commerce. Lucas made a suggestion that he thought would have increased the box office (which it may or may not have). It's one isolated incident that shows that Lucas does indeed think of the commerce aspect of films. It does not say he chooses commerce over art.

    --No, that only proves that Lucas claims he didn?t use Leigh?s script. I am claiming that he must have used some of it,--
    With zero proof other than the observation which is skewed toward the conclusion you already want to produce.

    --because a lot of the dialogue sounds like her writing?-
    Does it? It sounds more like Lucas-speak and "Raiders"-era Kasdan-speak to me. And by the way...even if it does sound like her writing, it's possible that Kasdan retained the flavor of her writing, if not the writing itself.

    --and if he did, his claim that he didn?t is another example of him revising SW history ...--
    It is nothing of the sort.
  2. JarJarGabor Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 2
    Shelley, you're making yourself look more than a little crazy.

    Chill out.
  3. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    What a yawnfest.

    Blah blah blah Lucas has my money blah blah blah I've found a wonderful way to hate what he does at the same time I love what he does blah blah blah I won't shut up 'til I make someone else like me blah blah blah they're resisting so I need to present portions of published articles for support blah blah blah better backpedal a bit here I look a bit hypocritical try again blah blah blah insult the gusher a bit blah blah blah compliment Lucas a tad to justify my excessive criticism to appear objective blah blah blah...

    Gawd! Since you only like the OT, just go to that forum and leave TPM forum if that's all you look forward to.

    Man!
  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Hm. Funny how you're not directing the same comments at Jabbadabbadoo. Could that be because you agree with him?

  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Shelley... peace.

    Last word from me on this issue.

    1) The A&E Biography was a one-sided look at GL the moviemaker. Fine, but GL the moviemaker cannot be assessed properly without an honest look at GL the business man.

    2)The sophistication of the GL marketing machine is no happy accident. GL the businessman has been as hard-nosed as any other businessman with a top 100 fortune. There is no other way to become a self-made billionaire. Like Bill Gates. Like Sam Walton. Like Walt Disney. Some of it is missionary zeal, perhaps, but much of it is the hardest of hardball.

    3) My belief is that one of his last acts as a businessman will be to take the Lucas holdings public with an IPO sometime after he has completed Episode III. When he dies, a controlling inerest in the shares will go into a trust for the benefit of his heirs - his three kids. My guess is that the IPO will raise billions of dollars. After his death, GL will be remembered the same way Walt Disney is remembered, as a movie-making pioneer who also happened to be one of the most ruthless entertainment businessmen of his day - an autocrat, a commercial visionary, a control freak, but also someone who loved movies.

    4) GL loves Star Wars. He wants it to be beloved by millions. He wants people to enjoy it. Star Wars ensures GL's place in film history. We all ought to be grateful... but not at the expense of really trying to understand the truth about GL as a businessman.

    5) AOTC will prove everything. You will see a sea change and, ironically enough, an emphasis on making Star Wars a better movie because GL really, truly understands after the merchandising debacle of TPM that only better movies can build the value of his brand. I think AOTC will reveal a better, more comfortable marriage between GL the director and GL the conglomerate CEO. I think the merchandising will be more restrained, because GL knows better now. He wants to protect the long-term value of his product.
  6. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    ?There is a mix of good and bad in the man. Of course. There is an autocratic streak, a lust for power and control, an apparent joy in playing hardball with his business partners, zealous defense of his intellectual property, and the confusion of the historical record as it filters through his public relations/marketing machine.?

    Amazing how George?s youth closely resembled Luke?s triumph over the Empire, and George?s adulthood closely resembles the fall of Anakin (or, the original [1983-1995] version of Anakin?s fall).


    ?I sometimes wonder whether "the fans" would have been as upset if he changed it so that Han shot first...?

    HAN DID SHOOT FIRST. HAN ALWAYS SHOT FIRST. The Star Wars series has become not unlike the rules written by the pigs in Animal Farm.


    ?His litigiousness? He's sued people who've used his creation in a disrespectful/defaming way, i.e., making porn movies out of it or some toilet-mouthed rapper using the name Luke Skyywalker?

    He also sued the creators of Battlestar Gallactica ?


    ?They were released to meet a frickin' deadline, Bud Frescoe. Do you not understand the concept of DEADLINES??

    BUT WHO IMPOSED THE DEADLINES, Shelley? All of the deadlines were imposed by George Lucas?he could have changed them if he wished. It would have cost him a little, but not much.


    ?[The Taxi Driver incident] is one isolated incident that shows that Lucas does indeed think of the commerce aspect of films. It does not say he chooses commerce over art.?

    Yes, it did. The artistically correct thing to do was go with the Scorsese version?George is clearly telling Marty to chose box office over art?and if he is thinking that way when presented with a masterpiece like Taxi Driver, imagine what goes through his brain when he?s faced with his space opera ?


    ?Does [the ESB dialogue sounds like Leigh Brackett?s writing]? It sounds more like Lucas-speak and "Raiders"-era Kasdan-speak to me. And by the way...even if it does sound like her writing, it's possible that Kasdan retained the flavor of her writing, if not the writing itself.?

    The ESB dialogue does not sound like Lucas-speak (clumsy excessive exposition) or Kasdan?s writing in Raiders (about that I can only say that I hear the difference, much like you can clearly tell what dialogue Mamet wrote in the Hannibal script)?but I will admit that it?s possible that Kasdan mimicked Brackett?s style. The main reason I doubt Lucas?s version of events is because he has the habit of misremembering things (as evidenced earlier), and because I never heard the story that NONE of Leigh Brackett?s writing was used until the mid 90?s.

    Put it this way: Lucas claims over and over again that NOTHING in Skywalking is true, yet much of it is according to most people involved. When he claims that NONE of Brackett?s script is in the film, how do we know this isn?t another exaggeration a la the Skywalking book?
  7. baggles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 1999
    star 4
    Jabba :

    How many times do I have to remind you that Hasbro's stock price do not plummet after TPM??

    If you check their stock chart, they split stock on 3/21/99 when the price was around $38. It changed to $19 because of the split.
    The price has stayed about the same for a very long time. But you will only see this if you check the chart for splits.

    I honestly get the feeling that you don't care about the truth as long as you can win your arguments against unprepared people who don't have the time to read up of this crap.

    BTW, over 75-80% of SW legos are OT designs. Lets stop blaiming TPM as a stand alone product line.

    And I assume you still refuse to check the year-end article in TFN's collecting page which features articles from Lego rating SW as a top 5 seller despite being in a non movie year. Or maybe you also happened to miss the CNN article linked on TFN, which rated SW's Hasbro line as the best selling toy for over 20 years.
  8. TravCon12 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 1998
    star 3
    Wow great now the Bashers have a snide little pseudo-compliment they will give if and when they actually think AOTC is a good movie, ie. it is only that way becuase Lucas realized how bad TPM sucked.....and he just wanted to make sure he could sell more Star Wars toys.

    Nice.....
  9. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    --Amazing how George?s youth closely resembled Luke?s triumph over the Empire, and George?s adulthood closely resembles the fall of Anakin (or, the original [1983-1995] version of Anakin?s fall).--
    Nope. I think his whole life resembles Luke's triumph over the Empire.

    --HAN DID SHOOT FIRST. HAN ALWAYS SHOT FIRST. The Star Wars series has become not unlike the rules written by the pigs in Animal Farm.--
    What?

    --He also sued the creators of Battlestar Gallactica ?--
    So what?

    --BUT WHO IMPOSED THE DEADLINES, Shelley? All of the deadlines were imposed by George Lucas?he could have changed them if he wished. It would have cost him a little, but not much.--
    WHO CARES, Bud Frescoe? Only you, with your determination to pick out every little flaw and blow it up into a treatise against Lucas, with no proof other than what you already believe and want to believe!

    Gad! Even if, IF, Lucas' FX team wanted to erase the matte lines and couldn't because of the deadline (you've offered no proof other than the fact that the matte lines are still there, and you THINK that the FX team wanted to erase them but wasn't given the opportunity), I really don't give a crap, because in all likelihood the matte lines will be erased in the Ultimate edition. Besides which, I've lived with the matte lines for this long and it hasn't spoiled the movie for me.

    --Yes, it did. The artistically correct thing to do was go with the Scorsese version-?
    Scorsese's artistically correct version, which you happen to agree with, was to go with the unhappy ending.

    --George is clearly telling Marty to chose box office over art?-
    He is telling him no such thing. He's making a suggestion...a SUGGESTION...based on his own perception of what might sell well. You're the one who's making this into a "Lucas chooses commerce over art, unlike Scorsese who cares nothing for money at all and just makes art" thing.

    --and if he is thinking that way when presented with a masterpiece like Taxi Driver, imagine what goes through his brain when he?s faced with his space opera--
    What in the hell are you talking about? So now Lucas' probably offhand suggestion to a fellow filmmaker and friend suddenly means he doesn't care anything about art, just money, with regards to his own work?

    Jeez! Talk about blowing stuff out of proportion to fit your own view!

    --The ESB dialogue does not sound like Lucas-speak (clumsy excessive exposition)--
    Yes it does. It had more wit in it than Lucas' scripts usually do, because of Kasdan, but for the most part it still sounded an awful lot like Lucas-speak.

    --or Kasdan?s writing in Raiders (about that I can only say that I hear the difference, much like you can clearly tell what dialogue Mamet wrote in the Hannibal script)?-
    What does Mamet have to do with it?

    --but I will admit that it?s possible that Kasdan mimicked Brackett?s style. The main reason I doubt Lucas?s version of events is because he has the habit of misremembering things (as evidenced earlier),--
    Where? And the man does not have a perfect memory, as none of us do...but there's a huge difference between misremembering something and flat-out lying about it.

    --and because I never heard the story that NONE of Leigh Brackett?s writing was used until the mid 90?s.--
    So what? Does Lucas have to have said everything in the late 70s or early 80s for it to be true?

    --Put it this way: Lucas claims over and over again that NOTHING in Skywalking is true,--
    Where has he said this, over and over?

    --yet much of it is according to most people involved. When he claims that NONE of Brackett?s script is in the film, how do we know this isn?t another exaggeration a la the Skywalking book?--
    Because you've yet to show where he says over and over again that NOTHING in Skywalking is true, and therefore it has nothing to do with what he said about Brackett's script.

    You think he used dialogue because in your perception, the script is like her writing. I don't know; I haven't made a comparison. However, if the script is similar to her writing, I'm saying it
  10. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Sorry Baggles, I can't let you get away with that inaccuracy. There was a 3 for 2 split in March 99. Then the stock traded up, mostly on the basis of TPM speculation, all the way until the end of April. Then word about the movie started to come in and the stock price plunged, and kept plunging until October 99, when it bottomed out at around $11. It has never really recovered. Again. Star Wars is only part of the Hasbro problem.

    It doesn't matter how much revenue Star Wars merchandise brings in if the costs associated with that revenue are too high. They have to write off those sales against the huge cost of the license

    Lego would have turned a profit last year if it had dropped its Star Wars line entirely and focused on the bionicles and Harry Potter. Contractually, however, it's trapped.
  11. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    I have a feeling that any minute now, Shelley's hand is going to relax, her leg is going to become untwisted, her limp is going to turn into a robust stride, and before our very eyes she will reveal herself to be Go-Mer-Tonic.
  12. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    Bud, it sort of reminds me of the identical thread from a year ago we had. And the identical one from the year before that. I'm just glad we're all still in top form.

    Here's a multiple choice question.

    I predict we will see less than a third the amount of AOTC merchandise on the shelves that we saw prior to TPM. If this is true is it because

    a) GL reigned in the merchandise to protect the value of the Star Wars brand
    b) retailers are afraid to stock their shelves with too much AOTC merchandise after losing money in the wake of TPM
    c) fewer licensees were willing to fork out money for a license with dubious market value

    or

    d) all of the above.
  13. JarJarGabor Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 2
    You can bet Baggles wont be back to respond. That's his style.
  14. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    There is something very Gunganesque about this thread. It's like comic relief that's somehow tragically misfired.
  15. prof_frink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 1, 1999
    star 3
    And once again my brilliant post is ignored...

    That's it - I'm taking my ball and going home...
  16. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    Your POST ignored? My whole POLL is ignored by some Gunganesque mission to attack Lucas.
  17. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    frink, didn't Jabba respond to your post on the last page?
  18. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Your POST ignored? My whole POLL is ignored by some Gunganesque mission to attack Lucas.

    It could be your poll is ignored because it's worthless. No matter which way the results come out (as if there were any doubt), it proves nothing, and it was obviously just an attempt for you to find a way to tell bashers to "shove off", which you later admit with quotes such as:
    "Are we supposed to feel sorry for your unmanagable urge to come here to complain about Lucas? Like I said, this is why I made this poll."
    and
    "... can use it as PROOF bashers should just get lost... since articles mean so much to them...or maybe they won't publish such a thing because they just concider that to be common sense."

    I'm so sick of justifying to people why it is that as a basher, I post on the TPM board, so sick, that I'm not even going to bother to do it again. It's time for you to just start dealing with it. I didn't come here to kick up trouble or insult people, I came to discuss TPM.
  19. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I won't even dignify that with an answer, Bud Frescoe.
  20. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    I didn't ask you to, Shelley.

    Man, we need to all simmer down.
  21. C-3P0 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 4
    Why don't you two just kiss and get this over with.

    ;)
  22. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    What do you think 3PO, a gusher and a basher like me?
  23. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Well, I've always wanted to kiss a droid. Come here, C-3PO.
    [face_love]

    EDIT - Waits patiently for someone to use a "I'd just assume kiss a wookie" spin-off line.
  24. Fobro Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2001


    I don't want to get into the middle of a big tift here, but that was absolutely hilarious and a great reference, Bud.


  25. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    "It could be your poll is ignored because it's worthless."

    Then don't vote?

    "No matter which way the results come out (as if there were any doubt), it proves nothing"

    Then maybe disregard them and don't vote?

    "and it was obviously just an attempt for you to find a way to tell bashers to "shove off", which you later admit"

    Then why are you pointing out what I already openly admit?


    My personal opinion doesn't change the results of the poll. This poll is fair to both sides. It is an unbias poll, but that doesn't mean that I have to be, I can have any opinion I dang well please.
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