"He is the chosen one...he will...bring balance...train him!"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Chron, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    The title of this thread is Qui-Gon Jinn's last mortal words.

    As his physical life force ebbed, Jinn drew ever closer to the force. He was certain, at this last life-moment, that Anakin was the prophesied Chosen One. Anakin, in Jinn's mind, was "the one" who was foreseen as bringing balance to the force.

    Balance! Hundreds of Jedi . . . only two Sith!

    Yoda saw danger.

    Mace saw danger.

    The majority of the council saw danger.

    Danger in what way? To the Republic? To the Jedi? To the status quo. To . . . . ?




  2. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Well, Palpatine took over the galaxy with Vader at his right hand side. That seems pretty dangerous to me.
  3. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    I'd assume the Council saw danger to the Jedi Order(given that Vader eventually destroyed it), the Republic(given that Vader helped Palpatine destroy it), and the galaxy(which Vader helped Palaptine plunge into oppression.)
  4. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Yoda saw danger.

    Mace saw danger.

    The majority of the council saw danger.

    Danger in what way? To the Republic? To the Jedi? To the status quo. To . . . . ?



    I agree, that part didnt make sense to me in TPM, and considering the rest of the PT, makes even less sense. If they thought he might turn to the dark side, they should have kept much closer tabs on him than what they did. Did they forget ?? Or did they later think that what they earlier forsaw was a load of garbage ?
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It was said in LOE that Yoda was convinced that the Chosen One was the only one who could reverse the growth of the darkness.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The danger is that if a boy who has the potential to become all powerful, yet has attachment issues which could lead him to the dark side, he might turn around and destroy the Jedi. At this point in their lives, they have not had someone this old come into their fold. His emotional instability can be a liability to all of them.

    Basically watch the films and you see what Yoda was getting at.
  7. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    :oops: Watch the films! Man, why didn't I think of that?

    My point is that Qui-Gon saw one future of the boy, the council saw another. Both came true. Lucas said QGJ was wrong, then he was right! :confused:

    Lets look at some possible reasons why this might be so:
    - Jinn is depicted as a respected by somewhat radical Jedi who has issues with the council's view of Jedi doctrine. Jinn discovers the boy
    - Anakin is 9 years old, 7 or 8 years behind the Jedi youngling power curve as far as training goes
    - In part due to the above, Anakin has emotional attachments to his mother that are foreign to the Jedi padawans at that age

    Yet desite all of this, Jinn wants to train the boy, especially since he believes the Sith have shown their hand, justifying the need for a Chosen One. He must be aware of all the council's concerns, yet he is adamant about the boy being trained.

    Anakin did not fit the Jedi cookie-cutter template for the reasons noted above. Yet why wouldn't any boy that age growing up without a father, especially a slave boy, not be emotionally attached to his mother -- the only solid pillar in his young life? How did the Jedi 'expect' the Chosen One to come to them? It seems they 'expected' when the need arose, a typical padawan raised from birth would wear the mantle of Sith Slayer. That Anakin comes to them outside of their expectations seems to dovetail with their not seeing the 'insidious' rise of the dark side around them.

    Not recognizing the Chosen One goes hand-in-hand with not seeing the Sith. By the end of TPM, after Jinn's tragic death, the council begins to reluctantly accept the fact that Jinn was right about the Sith and so could be right about the boy.

    But while Jinn certainly would likely have gone about training Anakin differently due to his unique Chosen One status as well as his 'advanced' age, the council gives the boy over to Kenobi, a newly minted Jedi fresh out of training, fully expecting Anakin to conform to the time honored cookie cutter training that all Jedi over the past millennium went through, training exclusively established for younglings removed from their parents or care givers before strong emotional attachments could be formed.

    The training that the Jedi hesitantly agreed to bestow upon Anakin was, simply put, the wrong training. Could this be why the council was reluctant to train the boy? Did they sense a mismatch resulting in tragedy that was largely due to their own stubborness and all-knowing attitude regarding how one becomes a jedi? Was the council seeing the end result of their own long, slow slide into the fog of the dark side that enveloped the order over the centuries?

    In the PT films, Jinn lives up to his name (a derivative of 'Genie,' or 'spirit' in Arabic lore) at the end of ROTS. He becomes the timeless, ephemeral master-teacher of both Yoda and Kenobi. Jinn's view of the boy's future may have been the purer of the two, while the council's could be seen as a classic 'self fulfilling prophecy.'

    From the "certain point of view" of a 'sleeping order' training the boy without Jinn as his master, the council was right. But between the PT and the OT force ghost Jinn trains Yoda and Kenobi as his proxies. They initiate and then instruct Luke in much the same way that Jinn might have done with Anakin, and Luke was twice as old as Anakin when his training began with just as many attachments as his father.

    Jinn's dying words, the subject of this thread, was the right advice used in the wrong way by Kenobi and the unbending, tradition oriented Jedi council.
  8. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Jedi Council see a dark future for the boy, and thus want nothing to do with him. They treat him poorly, and he ultimately takes another mentor. It's kind of like finding out that your neighbor will kill you one day, so you treat him like crap all the time. Then one day he shoots you because you're mean to him.

    The whole thing is very Greek!
  9. Avid_Prequels_Fan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2003
    star 2
    They felt danger in his future but didn't know what it was just that it was probably attached to Anakin's fear. Thats what I got from it. Makes sense.
  10. Jedi-knight-25 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2007
    star 2
    I think the danger was Anakin turning to the dark side because of the feelings he has.
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9


    Qui-gon was wrong about Anakin. That he wouldn't become a threat to the Jedi and the galaxy at large, but he was right about Anakin bringing balance to the Force. Qui-gon ignored what the Council and Obi-wan said about Anakin being a danger to them, because of his upbringing. Which could lead to his becoming that which they swore to destroy. He was right in what Anakin finally does. His fate was clouded as he could become a Jedi or Sith, depending on his emotional stability. And with a Sit
  12. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4

    Anakin was no more dangerous that the Jedi who actually existed within the Order . . . including Yoda, Obi-Wan and Mace. They, along with the rest of the Jedi, had already sown the seeds of their destruction with their arrogance, insularity and self-righteousness. And these negative traits became worse when they met Anakin. I think that he represented an unknown factor to them. He had a higher midichlorian count than the others. He came from a background outside the Core World of the Republic. And he was spotted as a Force user at the age of nine. Anakin was too different from those who were already within the Jedi Order. They sensed this . . . and feared this. I believe that the Jedi Council's inner fear of Anakin played a great part in Anakin's downfall . . . and especially their own.
  13. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    The danger is that if a boy who has the potential to become all powerful, yet has attachment issues which could lead him to the dark side, he might turn around and destroy the Jedi.

    Oh ok, now I get it. Once Shmi is killed by the Tusken Raiders, Yoda feels he can rest easier. [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  14. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    The danger is that if a boy who has the potential to become all powerful, yet has attachment issues which could lead him to the dark side, he might turn around and destroy the Jedi.


    The problem I have with this argument is that the Jedi Order had honestly believed that they didn't have a problem with attachments. Yet, their initial rejection of Anakin and some of their other actions in both AOTC and ROTS proved that they did.

    How can they expect Anakin to do away with attachments? They never really taught anyone how to deal with attachments. Instead, they either subjected a Jedi initiate to lectures or forced them to let go of attachments through rules. In the end, they knew nothing of letting go of attachments any more than Anakin did.
  15. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Anakin at 9 is too old, has too many attachments and Luke at 19 does not? [face_thinking]

    Qui-Gon ends up surpassing the stagnant teachings of the Jedi, surviving death and ultimately teaching the order's two survivors what he had learned. After those two Jedi receive their teachings, they then teach Luke -- but not everything. Luke, like Qui-Gon, learns certain things all on his own, often disobeying his master-teachers in the process.

    In my mind Qui-Gon was wrong only because he died and could not personally train Anakin. Had he lived, Anakin's training could well have been tailored by Jinn to suit Skywalker's strengths and weaknesses. Kenobi was not as skilled as his dead master and was not up to the duanting task of training an apprentice burdoned with attachments. As such, the Sith's greatest coming-out victory may well have been the death of Jinn.

    Anakin's attachments were viewed by the Jedi council and Kenobi as a fatal weakness. Yet those very attachments, extended through his recognition of Luke's undying noble deeds, are what ultimately leads him to accept his prophesied destiny to destroy the Sith. Likewise, had Luke not keyed in on his own determined attachments and tenaciously pursued the good man who was his father, all hope for Anakin and the galaxy would have been ingloriously lost.
  16. TT-0333 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2007
    star 1
    Well techniaccaly wan't the phropecy true? I mean he did destroy the sith in the end including himself, although I dod get what you and everyone else is saying....

    Everyone has different veiws of things...
  17. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Anakin's attachments were viewed by the Jedi council and Kenobi as a fatal weakness. Yet those very attachments, extended through his recognition of Luke's undying noble deeds, are what ultimately leads him to accept his prophesied destiny to destroy the Sith. Likewise, had Luke not keyed in on his own determined attachments and tenaciously pursued the good man who was his father, all hope for Anakin and the galaxy would have been ingloriously lost.




    Exactly. You could even say Vaders FEAR of losing Luke led to the destruction of the Sith.

    YODA : Eveything. Fear is the path to the dark side... fear leads to
    anger... anger leads to hate.. hate leads to suffering.

    What Yoda didnt realize is that Fear is also the path to the destruction of the Sith. Of course, you also have to take out a few thousand Jedi along the way. [face_laugh]
  18. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Well, what good is a prophesy that foresees the status quo? Prophesies are only interesting in the context of cataclysmic events.

    Otherwise, a prophesy would be like the scene in The Life of Brian where one of the prophets foresees some kids losing their fathers hammer and other minutiae.
  19. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    If Anakin had embraced the Jedi way and overcome his attatchments, that would have never been necessary as he would have simply killed Palpatine without being paralyzed by his greed and fear of loss when it relates to Padme.
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They reject Anakin because of the simple fact that the Code forbade training a child past a specific age and Anakin far past that. Their actions in AOTC weren't born out of fear, but confusion. When it came to dealing with Palpatine, they had a duty to stop evil which has never changed in the 25,000 years of their existence.

    Actually, they did let go of their attachments. Anakin didn't want to even try it.

    No, he does have attachments and emotional problems which is why Yoda is reluctant to train Luke. He sees a repeat of the past all over again. He's starting to have doubts about the decision to let the children grow up in families.

    You're assuming that Qui-gon would've done things differently. He may have been a maverick, but he also understood that not a whole lot of the Jedi Order was wrong.

    Luke's attachments were going to damn him. Giving up those attachments saved both Skywalker men. Luke was willing to let his friends die, if meant that he didn't become like his father. And his father realized that it is better for he himself to die, instead of his son. Thus he is not attached and as Qui-gon told Yoda, to become one with the Force, the Jedi cannot have any attachments. No sense of self.
  21. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    The training that the Jedi hesitantly agreed to bestow upon Anakin was, simply put, the wrong training. Could this be why the council was reluctant to train the boy? Did they sense a mismatch resulting in tragedy that was largely due to their own stubborness and all-knowing attitude regarding how one becomes a jedi?

    no. that is called reflection, something the jedi of old hadn't mastered yet. lord knows how qui gon got out of their claws alright and somewhat intelligent.
  22. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I believe they saw the faults Qui Gon ignored and saw the eventual outcome from those problems Anakin had. They did know the power he could possess and knew that with that power and the faults he carried he could do alot of danger.
  23. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Fair enough -- but then how can Qui-Gon be so wrong, then suddenly be so right in his little conversation (cut from the movie, not the novel and script) with Yoda on the Polis Massa asteroid?

    Jinn is, after all, the Jedi who brought Skywalker before the council, the same Skywalker who was now a Sith apprentice as Yoda and the others had foreseen. Yoda should have told Qui-Gon to go bother someone else and leave just leave him alone. Instead, Jinn is viewed by Yoda as his new master and teacher.

    So what changed Yoda's mind about Jinn? Why all of a sudden trust this "radical, failed, dead Jedi's ephemeral judgement and unquestionably accept his personal 'training?'

    I propose the following reasons:

    a) Yoda had already admitted to Bail Organa after his duel with Sidious that he had failed -- failed not just in his fight with the Sith lord, but failed the Republic and the entire Jedi order. The Sith rose to power under his watch. He was blind to them, and so too as well was blind to what Jinn was trying to tell Yoda and the rest of the council in TPM.

    b) Jinn must've considered the same issues the council did regarding Anakin's flaws. Yet he resolutely pushed for the boy to be trained. Why? What did he see that the council didn't, that Yoda didn't? Jinn is a Jedi -- he has no attachments. His interest is pure, from his point of view. Anakin is a strong candidate for the prophesied Chosen One, just not the ideal candidate that the Jedi expected.

    Perhaps the old saying to "never look a gift horse in the mouth" has meaning here for the council, in that Anakin was not the perfect Jedi candidate, but he was what the force delivered to the Jedi at a time that the Sith were rising up. He was the ultimate weapon, one that could destroy either side. The Jedi failed, Yoda failed -- to employ this mega-weapon properly against the Sith, instead letting the Sith exploit Anakin's flaws to befriend him, recruit him, indoctrinate him and then 'arm him' for use against the Jedi instead of against the Sith.

    The Jedi were, after all, wrong about Anakin in the end -- both PT and OT Jedi. There was good in him. He would destroy the Sith. But it took a new Jedi in Luke, who understood attachments and how to deal with them, that ultimately turned the tide against the Sith and led Anakin to accept his destiny.

  24. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi did the galaxy a favor by training Anakin. If Anakin doesn't get trained, that sets up an even more disturbing possibility for the Jedi. Chancellor Palpatine is certainly going to learn about Anakin's exploits in blowing up the Droid control ship. Now, if I have any knowledge of the Force at all, and as THE Sith Lord, I certainly do, if the Jedi do not wish to train him, perhaps I will "adopt" him. The Jedi can't stop me from doing it, in fact have no reason to say no. They have no clue that I am Sith, have no clue that I just lost my apprentice. They know a Sith Lord was killed, but they haven't the foggiest idea that it was my apprentice that was killed. To the Jedi, I am just recently elected Supreme Chancellor Palpatine of Naboo. To Anakin however, I would be his master. I would train him in the Force and of the Sith from age 9, creating an extremely potent weapon to be used in my plans to wipe the galaxy of the Jedi, etc.

    Its certainly plausible, that had the Jedi not trained Anakin, they would have made it much worse for themselves, as they leave open the possibility that the unknown Sith Lord would find Anakin and train him as his apprentice. Given Anakin's Force Potential, thats a risk they cannot take.

    "And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest..."


    spoken BEFORE its revealed the Jedi will indeed train Anakin. Palpatine already knows Anakin is special. But, is content to let the Jedi train him in the basics, so he doesn't have to. However, had the Jedi decided not to, Palpatine certainly would have taken a very active role in Anakin's Force training, even if it had to be done secretly.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine didn't train Anakin because he didn't have the time to do so. That's why he let the boy stay with the Jedi, while he converted Dooku. Anyway, Qui-gon is still wrong at the end of ROTS. He's only proven right by the end of ROTJ, when Anakin comes back and destroys the Sith Order. Yoda believes that his failure lies in the fact that he didn't let the Jedi Order adapt. That he trained them the same way that he had been taught, nearly a thousand years ago. Qui-gon will show him what he missed before, but we don't know what the specifics of that is. Just that there is more to learn and one of those things will be to retain his identity. In the OT, the Jedi still don't believe in Anakin anymore. They believe in Luke and that belief is tested because of the actions he took when he left for Bespin.
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