Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Chron, Sep 8, 2007.
Mace wasn't that smart it would seem.
I mean, look who he took with him to arrest Palpatine.
Whoa, partner! Let's rewind the reel here, shall we! Qui-Gon literally BUYS Anakin from Watto when he wins his wager AND cheats against the cheater in a game of 'chance cube' to secure the "rights" to Anakin. Per Outer Rim Tatooine rules, Anakin is the Jedi knight's "property.'
And although Anakin is only a young boy with big dreams, he still loves his mother very deeply -- an admirable trait IMO. Recall that it is Jinn and his mother that convince Anakin to leave, not simply Anakin of his own free will:
From TPMs shooting script on BlueHarvest.net . . .
SHMI comes over to her son and sits next to him. Taking both of his hands in
hers, she draws him close.
SHMI : Son, my place is here. My future is here. It is time for you to let
go...to let go of me. I cannot go with you.
ANAKIN : I want to stay with you. I don't want things to change.
SHMI : You can't stop change any more than you can stop the suns from
setting. Listen to your feelings; Annie, you know what's right.
ANAKIN takes a deep breath, drops his head. QUI-GON and SHMI exchange a look
of concern. When ANAKIN raises up, there are tears in his eyes.
ANAKIN : I'm going to miss you so much, Mom...
SHMI : I love you, Annie...now hurry.
Qui-Gon knows exactly 'the bill of goods' that he's getting for 'the wager he made.' His wager secures a special life form, one that he has absolutely no remorse in removing from his mother, his home planet, his servitude. Yet Qui-Gon firmly believes that taking young (but too old) Anakin with him is the right thing to do.
Shmi firmly believes this as well. She not only wants her son to go with his Jedi 'owner,' she more than anyone knows he is special in very different ways. Both Jinn and Shmi make Anakin's decision for him, unlike Luke, who lost his reason for staying on Tatooine when Owen and Beru are murdered by the Empire and decides on his own to go with Ben. Instead, unlike Luke in the OT, Anakin leaves behind serious attachments, memories, feelings of love for his nurturing mother.
So aside from all that the Jedi or Padme might have done to free Shmi, the Jedi could at least acknowledge that Anakin's attachment to Shmi is based upon his feeling 'responsible' for her, caring about her, loving her. Nothing young Anakin does in TPM has 'dark side' painted on it. He is essentially labeled precognitavely by the Jedi as having attachments, and those attachments are bad. Anakin is submitted to the Jedi version of a "Minority Report," where his love and caring for his mother is deemed wrong. As far as the Jedi are concerned, their judgement is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Alas, it is the sterile, stagnant, fat cat Jedi order that is proven wrong in the end, "about a great many things." Luke uses his attachments to learn a great truth, to make the right call at the right time, to redeem his father and permit dear old dad to save the galaxy from the Sith. Had the Jedi treated Anakin the way that Luke did, the OT would be N/A.
Qui Gon Jinn did not force Anakin to leave his mother. Infact, Anakin ran back to her till HIS mother told him not to look back. Lets stop blaming the Jedi in that respect. Qui Gon "its a hard life EVEN IF YOU SUCCEED". Warnings were given; Anakin himself CHOSE to go ahead.
Once again, Chron... U.R.on.FIRE.
Another fabulous soliloquy.
From TPM's script on BlueHarvest.net
INT. ANAKIN'S HOVEL - MAIN ROOM - DAY
SHMI is cleaning up as ANAKIN bursts through the door, followed by QUI-GON.
ANAKIN : Mom, he sold the Pod. Look at all the money we have!
ANAKIN pulls a bag of coins out of his pocket.
SHMI : Oh, my goodness, That's wonderful.
QUI-GON : And Anakin has been freed.
ANAKIN : What?!?
QUI-GON : You're no longer a slave.
It's irrelevent what they're based on. Jedi can't have those attatchments and as Qui-Gon tells him "It will be a hard life."
In Jedi Anakin finally lets go of his attatchments(in the Lucasian sense of the word at any rate) and embraces compassion and his love for his son. If he was attatched he'd have never let himself die. The Jedi's methods in the OT also aren't that different from their methods in the PT.
Shmi seems to understand the Jedi code better than Anakin does...She tells him to let her go too...
Shmi is an emotionally mature single 'slave' mother who is thinking of a brighter future for her 'slave' son. Her son is a young, pre-pubescent boy who's only security has been his mother.
Yet Jinn recognizes the implications of the boy to the 'big picture' and secures him for the services of the Jedi. The defenders of the Republic take issue with the boy's love of and worry for his mother. Had Shmi known the reception Anakin would receive, I doubt she would have been so encouraging.
Points above about Jinn wagering on Anakin, then leaving his mother a slave aside, my main point in this thread is Jinn indeed recognizes who and what Anakin is, and despite the boy's baggage Jinn decides to take him on. Yet the Council doubts Jinn, the same Jinn who is later praised by Yoda as his new master and teacher.
Qui-Gon is wise, Shmi a nurturing mother, Anakin is a good, caring and helpful child. What goes wrong? First -- Jinn unexpectedly dies. Next, Anakin is handed over to a rookie Jedi for training, leaving the boy open to undue influence from Palpatine. Then the order expects the child to adapt to their millennial way of life, a life that's become "corrupted" using Lucas' own words. The Jedi refuse to bend that "corrupted" way of life to help the 'good, caring, helpful' Anakin adapt to the harsh emotional turmoil precipitated by his separation from Shmi. They provide no reassurances, refuse to check on this 'left behind' slave woman, demand that Anakin "let go" because that's what they were taught to do -- HAD to do. But Anakin is NOT your typical Jedi appearing during typically peaceful times, is he?
One wonders what Shmi's fate might have been, let alone Anakin's, had Jinn defeated Maul and lived on to train the boy. Jinn had his 'stuff' rolled up into one tight little ball. He came -- he saw -- he immediately understood! While the choice to join the Sith was Anakin's and Anakin's alone, the Jedi order did Skywalker no favors. Anakin is the 'Christ' figure, brought forth by virgin birth to save the galaxy from evil, and he is instead constantly doubted by a pompous, self-righteous order that never sees the proverbial 18-wheeler barreling down upon them.
Maybe if the lights were flashing and the horn was blowing, they MIGHT have seen it coming.
Then again, with Yoda and the current Council members at the helm, maybe not.
Shmi told Qui-gon that she wanted someone to help Anakin. She thrust Anakin upon him and Qui-gon said that wasn't much he could do, because he was not identified sooner. Qui-gon found a solution that benefited both the Skywalkers, the mission and the Jedi Order. He then told Anakin that he was free. Shmi said that he had to decide if he wanted to leave Tatooine to become a Jedi. It was his choice. It was always Anakin's choice. All Shmi and Qui-gon did was guide him. The only thing Qui-gon did wrong was that he didn't consider that the Jedi Order might not want him in, due to his age.
Qui-gon trusted that Obi-wan would do a good job and from what we can gather, he didn't bitch out Obi-wan for failing. Qui-gon failed because he ignored the danger. He should've left Anakin on Tatooine until he was emotional mature. That's why the twins are left with families, because they have to be ready to leave on their own.
Right. It also depends largely on if you believe Obi-Wan actually did fail Anakin as a Master. I lean towards Obi-Wan being his own harshest critic, when he says "I have failed you, Anakin", like a parent would say if their child got arrested or something. Sometimes Children and padawans fail on their own, and there is nothing a parent or Master could have done differently that would have changed it.
As do I. I also think that while Lucas says the Jedi are corrupt he failed miserably in showing it and as such the film takes precedence.
I think Lucas did fine with showing us: Putrefaction or decomposition of the Jedi Order as a whole. This process, as seen through their behavior, serves the primary model of the metaphorical one of corruption, so advanced states of corruption in, e.g. a political structure are said to result in putrefaction of said structures.
If that makes sense.
It does, I just think the corruption was shown within the Republic with the Jedi playing the role of the ultimately good people who refused to see what their government had become.
I see it in a rather Solomon-esque combination of how Sx3 and Master_Skywalker do -- the Jedi were indeed corrupted because they continued their age old ways in a galaxy that changed around them. To make matters worse, the order long-ago became convinced that the Sith had been destroyed. This belief was carried forward. One of the main proponents of that view was Master Yoda, the oldest and 'wisest' among the high and mighty Jedi Council.
Yoda had a Sith Lord right in front of him in Palpatine. He saw him rise from political obscurity on Naboo to become the Supreme Chancellor. He allowed hmself and the Council to take orders from Palpatine in times of galactic rebellion. Yoda, in a very real sense, let the Jedi become pawns of a Sith. He fails . . . fails to see what is right in front of him. Yoda fails to understand that the change in the galaxy was in many important ways manipulated by genius puppet masters. He fails to realize that the powers of the Jedi are clouded because the Sith indeed survived extermination a millennium ago, flourishing under the rule of two without the Jedi having a clue.
That Dooku leaves the order is troublesome. Yet Yoda does not sense his turn to the Dark Side, that his former apprentice has become a Sith apprentice. That's TWO Sith right under Yoda's nose. Only when Yoda comes face-to-face with is former padawan does he begin to understand that all is not as it seemed.
Yoda then employs the mysterious Clone Army, a convenient resource that again was created without his knowledge. Yoda readily takes sides in a galactic civil war, which by default admits defeat, for the Jedi were supposed to keep the peace in the galaxy. This was their primary role. Yoda then allows the Jedi to become generals -- which they are not fully trained to do. The war becomes the be all to end all, draining the order of its peace keeping resources even further, forcing the council to authorize letting Anakin serve as Palpatine's security chief in order to spy upon him, which is treason, then allowing him to sit on the council as the Chancellor's personal representative to continue the intelligence ruse.
Lastly, Yoda fails to defeat Sidious in combat. Yoda fails on many levels. Most sigificantly the fall of the Republic rests largely on his whispy, increasingly hairless green head. When Obi-Wan speaks to Luke about the glory days of the Republic being crushed by the Dark Times, he fails to tell young Skywalker that those Dark Times happened because the Jedi order, led by Yoda, failed to keep the peace.
And if I may add that I found it almost absurd that Lucas would try to pass it all off, or sweep it under the rug with lines like: "Hard to see the darkside is" and "the shroud of the darkside has fallen". Those lines make Yoda look even more impotent than he already appears.
Jedi are not infallible. Yoda is taking a lot of criticism for not being able to tell Palpatine was a Sith...ok, fine. Perhaps that level of knowledge is not something Force users can easily detect. Palpatine didn't detect when Darth Vader stopped being Darth Vader, and went back to being Anakin Skywalker. If he had, he wouldn't have let himself get blindsided by him, and be thrown down the pit. I guess it must go both ways. I think it is a mistake to assume that detecting Light Side/Dark Side is just another run of the mill Force ability. NOBODY could even detect that Palpatine was a Force user, and you want to blame Yoda for not being able to tell he was a Sith Lord? Palpatine was that damn good at hiding his Force presence, that's all. When someone is able to completely mask their Force presence, how can you then expect a Jedi to be able to tell if they are Light Side or Dark Side? The Jedi were around Palpatine for over 10 years while he was Supreme Chancellor, before he revealed himself as a Sith. Palpatine MUST have had absolute perfect control over his Force presence, to have never slipped up during that time, not once. Had Palpatine slipped just once in masking his Force presence, the gig would have been up. But, because he never slips up, it would have been impossible for anyone to detect he was a Sith Lord. Yoda gets a pass from me on this, as every Jedi does. Their not being able to detect Palpatine as a Force user, let alone a Sith isn't because of a failure on their part, but because of masterful total control by Palpatine. You can't blame Yoda for not seeing something that is impossible to be seen.
You want Yoda to be omnipotent, and then criticize him when he isn't. Its very convenient for you to do it that way, isn't it? Rather than admit that even the wisest of beings can't possibly know everything, you want him to know everything, so when he makes a mistake, you can blast him. Some things were simply beyond any Jedi to detect, that's all.
Yep, especially because Yoda is the first Jedi other than Qui-Gon to accept that the Sith had returned. He believed Jinn when he said that the man who attacked him was a Sith. He saw what he could and was willing to accept things the other Jedi weren't. He simply failed to stop the Sith because Palpatine had such control of the Force that he was unable to be sensed and was using a Sith plan that had been in the works for a millenium.
Hell, Palpatine didn't sense Luke arrive at Endor and Obi-wan didn't sense Vader was on the Death Star until it was too late. It's not rocket science. I don't deny that the Jedi failed to change as Yoda said this and Lucas speaks of change. But not everything the Jedi teach is wrong. Not every action they took was wrong. The Jedi treated Anakin fairly. He just failed to try due to his arrogance born from his abilities.
"Let's blame Yoda, let's go! Let's blame Yoda, let's go!"
True. LoL... I wonder, did it have to do with Palpatine's immense ego. Or the fact that he viewed Luke's threat to his throne as a gnat flying around a cup of his Sith-tea?
What's sadly ironic to me, is that the Jedi failed to EFFECTIVELY teach humility. If they hadn't, then we never would have heard them discuss the arrogance that permiated the Order. The truth is, they weren't humble servants to the Republic they served. Awfully pompous, they all were.
OBI-CHRON: ""the order expects the child to adapt to their millennial way of life, a life that's become "corrupted"""
Corrupted... That's the key word there. The Jedi were corrupted... not corrupt.
The Jedi had become arrogant due to their abilities and the fact that there had been no evidence of Sith(atleast we can assume this from the movies) in a Millenia. The Jedi were not shady characters or a mafia type organisation. The seeked to good where they could, they were not bad people.
What "corrupted" them was getting duped into serving, in a war that they could not win and a Sith that they could not see. They had no choice but to go to war, as they were sworn to protect the republic and up popped a surprise army to back them up. As I said before, they were being corrupted, they were not corrupt.
As has been stated before 20 Jedi leaving the order in over... well a really long time out of who knows how many Jedi is a pretty good average, considering how hard the life of a Jedi is in the first place. So we have to assume the system they have in place is a pretty damn good one. Jinn made the mistake of bringing the boy to corrusant, assuming that Anakin could conform to the Jedi way of life, he was wrong!
The council sensed danger in the boys training, but what could they do? The boy had been discovered now, so they had a choice to make, let the boy be trained and hope that all goes well, or cut him loose and let the newly arisen Sith order get their hands on him?
As it turns out the end result would have been the same!
With defeat comes humility -- "Failed, I have!" Only then does Yoda comprehend the magnitude of what has transpired and the price paid for arrogance.
With one thousand years atop the heap, an 'all knowing' elitism manifested itself among the council. Only those Jedi conforming to time-honored 'behaviors' and 'attitudes' were rotated through the top brass. This, as we are all aware, is why Jinn was never asked to join. He did not conform.
Nor did Anakin conform. Headstrong and full of self-purpose, he was trouble from the start for the over-starchy order intolerant of change.
The Jedi remind me of the French strategists prior to WWII. They constructed the 'inpentetrable' Maginot Line. They felt they were invincilble. Problem was, the Maginot strategy was built to win 'the last war,' and Hitler with his generals revolutionized warfare with the Blitzkrieg to transcend the trench warfare tactics of WWI. The French only realized the error of 'their' ways when Hitler was standing at the Arch de Triumph sipping Chateau Mouton Rothschild wine.
So too with the Sith, who did not play by Jedi rules and expectations. They changed the rules, moving under the radar so as to not change Jedi expectations. The plan suceeded -- brilliantly.
And Yoda? Exiled, and back to school with the formerly 'non-conformist' Qui-Gon Jinn, ascended master and teacher. If one Jedi is to blame, then blame Yoda we must!
[hl=black]Obi-Chron for the P.O.T.U.S.[/hl]
There is a degree with which one is their own person. Qui-gon found the right balance. Anakin didn't. He became self-indulgent and arrogant.
Granted, Lord Sinister!
And the council wasn't "self indulgent and arrogant?"
How were the Jedi Council self-indulgent? arrogant I can see, although I think it is highly exaggerated!!