"He is the chosen one...he will...bring balance...train him!"

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Obi-Chron, Sep 8, 2007.

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  1. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Why do I get the feeling that you've chaired a debate-team Chron?
    And IMO: Darth Sinister --Looks way better than those Iowa Hawkeye/ Schlitzburg Steelers/ Boston Bruin colors... maybe if you changed yer pic to Snoopy, or Jar Jar but Sidious is more smarmy-looking with the blue.[face_devil]

    Not that you asked for my 2 centavos on the matter.;)

    :p
  2. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Ahem!

    [image=http://www.steelersfever.com/images/wallpapers/wallpaper33_1024x768.jpg]

    Nuff said!
  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    You were on a roll there, for a few days... but this? This is what yer Schlitzburger Stealer's will look like after they rumble in boyz' Jungle.

    [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/Vaderstillpwnsu.jpg]


    Sorry Chron, but at this moment:
    [image=http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n107/SithStarSlayer/In_your_macaroni.jpg]

    I really can't talk, we gave up 50+ to the Clowns.
    Our D is meh.:p


  4. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    No, they weren't.
  5. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    From TPM Script:

    QUI-GON : ...my only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord.
    MACE WINDU : A Sith Lord?!?
    KI-ADI : Impossible! The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.

    and . . .

    MACE WINDU : I do not believe they could have returned without us knowing.

    then later . . .

    OBI-WAN : Master, you could be sitting on the Council by now if you would just follow the code. They will not go along with you this time.
    QUI-GON : You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.

    when QGJ sticks up for his apprentice being ready to become a Jedi. . .

    QUI-GON : Headstrong....and he has much to learn about the living Force, but he is capable. There is little more he will learn from me.
    YODA : Our own council we will keep on who is ready. More to learn, he has...

    Yet Yoda mysteriously relents after QGJ's death and makes Kenobi, a brand new Jedi who only days ago had "more to learn," Anakin's master.

    Let's stroll on over to the AOTC script, right after Padme's first assassination attempt, shall we . . .

    PADMÉ: But I think that Count Dooku was behind it.

    There is a stir of surprise. They look at one another.

    KI-ADI-MUNDI: He is a political idealist, not a murderer.
    MACE WINDU: You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his character.

    then, with Obi-Wan looking for Kamino in the Jedi Library . . .

    JOCASTA NU: It ought to be, unless it was very recent. (shakes her head) I hate to say it, but it looks like the system you're searching for doesn't exist.
    OBI-WAN: That's impossible... perhaps the archives are incomplete.
    JOCASTA NU: The archives are comprehensive and totally secure, my young Jedi. One thing you may be absolutely sure of - if an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist!

    oh, really! but most damning is the following snippet, made by the leader of the order chartered to defend the Republic.

    MACE WINDU: I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.
    YODA: Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed the Senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

    Is Yoda afraid? If the Jedi war sworn to defend the Republic, and are losing their ability to use their primary weapon, are they truly serving their intended purpose? Instead, as Palpatine tell Anakin, they seem "afraid to lose power," . . . from a certain point of view.

    The prosecution rests!
  6. Juggernaut86 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2005
    star 2
    This is really good
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi were arrogant, but not self-indulgent. They weren't afraid to lose their power. They were afraid that they couldn't stop the coming darkness. Palpatine just twisted the situation to make it look like they were.

    Yoda doesn't relent on the matter of letting the boy in. The Council, eleven out of twelve, relent. They let Obi-wan be Anakin's Master to honor Qui-gon's last wish. As to being a Knight, he has proven himself capable because he defeated a Sith Lord by not turning. Obi-wan realized the errors he made following Qui-gon's fatal injuries. He confronted and conquered (sp) the fear within him. He let go of his emotions and acted as a Jedi should. That's why he became a Knight.

  8. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2003
    star 6
    All just arrogance. Yoda also still doesn't want Anakin to be trained.

    Again, simply arrogance. The Jedi were sure that their teachings had made it so no Jedi of Dooku's renown could turn to the Dark Side.

    She's not on the Council.

    The Jedi are sworn to protect the Republic, but there is nothing that the Republic could have done about the Jedi's loss of power, so revealing it would have only caused more trouble for the Republic given that the Jedi surely made enemies of many groups who hated the Republic over their over a thousand generation tenure as the guardians of peace and justice. The Jedi Order also exists for far more than simply defending the Republic.
  9. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Those who gain power are afraid to lose it...Palpatine especially. Anakin failed to see the double meaning in Palpatine's words. Palpatine was referring to the Jedi, but as Supreme Chancellor, the person who gained the most power, the double meaning behind it is obvious. Had Palpatine said those same words to Master Yoda, I would have expected a counter like "And afraid to lose power are you, Chancellor?"
  10. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    Boy, that still makes no sense to me. The Jedi look really stupid right there.

    Doesn't mean he'll make for a good teacher, or that he was even PREPARED to become one.

    A Noobie Knight should never train another noobie padawan.
    They should at least have to go through "How to mentor a padawan 101" or something.


  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "More to learn, he has" did not make it into the film.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi weren't afraid to lose their power. They were afraid that they could not help the Republic and if the Senate found out that their abilities are diminishing, they'll be barred from helping people. They'll be barred from having contact with the Chancellor and the Senate, which means that they cannot help negotiate peace. The Jedi and the Senate need to work together in order to survive. It's the symbiont circle that Obi-wan talked about.
  13. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    And we see just how well that worked!

    The Jedi witheld vital information from the Senators, many of whom trusted and relied upon the Jedi to anticipate problems or solve the ones that managed to crop up. That they hid the 'fact' that their abilities were failing as the dark side grew shows that they suffered from 'at least' one of the following:

    - fear of their degraded powers being found out (by the Senate, their impotence laid naked to the galaxy. The Sith already knew the Jedi were failing, as they moved seemingly at will without Jedi resistence.
    - insecurity, in that the Sith were dictating the tempo of the rising conflict, without any Jedi knowledge of who was responsible and where they were operation from
    - arrogance, insisting, acting like nothing had changed
    - self indulgence (don't tell if they don't ask) in keeping the limits of their powers from those who trust the Jedi to 'have and use' those power to protect the galaxy
    - attachment to power, just as Palpatine explained to Anakin
    - an antiquated, out of touch view of the galaxy, which had evolved around the Jedi while they subscribed to time-honored but outmoded methods

    And while it is true that "the Jedi and the Senate need to work together in order to survive," the Senate turmoil depicted at the beginning of TPM proves a clear indicator of a fission occuring between the two that would not be repaired. It ends "with applause" for Palpatine's declaration of the 1st Galactic Empire -- a totally bad thing for the Jedi, who are cut off from the living whole.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    They were in a lose-lose situation if they did or didn't speak up. Telling sure as hell wouldn't help.
  15. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Based on what from the movies do you base your claim that they withheld information from the Senate? In AOTC, exactly 5 minutes in, during a meeting with Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, Master Yoda says "The Dark Side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is". Now, I would consider informing the head of the Senate, the Supreme Chancellor that the Dark Side was clouding their visions as informing the Senate. Your premise that they hid the fact that the Dark Side diminished their abilities is proven false right there, 5 minutes into the movie. You cannot maintain that they tried to hide the information, when Yoda quite clearly tells Palpatine, the head of the Senate, directly to his face, that the Dark Side was clouding everything. AOTC directly contradicts your claim. Don't believe me? Go check. AOTC, Chapter 4, at exactly 5:00, Yoda makes his statement.

    Palpatine's mini-speech about attachment to power is better directed focusing it upon himself.

    And who do you think was responsible for the fission between the Senate and the Jedi? Gee, I dunno...perhaps the one orchestrating the entire thing, Palpatine! There was a divide, but it was caused through completely artificial influencing by a Sith Lord corrupting Senators to do his bidding, all the while playing the role of Senator himself.
  16. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Those who gain power are afraid to lose it...Palpatine especially. Anakin failed to see the double meaning in Palpatine's words. Palpatine was referring to the Jedi, but as Supreme Chancellor, the person who gained the most power, the double meaning behind it is obvious.


    I believe that Palpatine's observation about the Jedi was right on target. However, he was also talking about himself.
  17. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    ^^^

    Politicians almost always label their opponents with their own worst traits.

    Had the Jedi not become comfortable, leading to their overconfidence in all matters pertaining to the force, Palpatine would never have risen to his supreme imperial station.

    Anakin had human failings -- that's part of the Jospeph Campbell 'hero myth.' He indeed fails society, in large part because his society fails him -- his own slavery, leaving his mother in the bonds of Outer Rim slavery, his initial rejection by the council. It is a classic finger-pointing situation, where he is seen by the council to be wreckless and possessive, yet is also a potential hero and savior. How one views him is how he is. Anakin gives what he gets in return -- if doubted or mistrusted, he returns the favor. He is never taught how to overcome this, perhaps because the ones teaching him are constantly reminding him that he may not be all that he is cracked up to be.

    One would think that the council, after confirming the existence of the Sith, would convene and discuss just why the force would bring this 9-year-old boy to them instead of the Jedi identifying him in the traditional manner. Why was this so? What did it mean for them and how were they to adapt, for it is obvious that despite the council's disbelief that the Sith could have risen without their knowing, the were indeed making their presence known. Similarly, if the Sith were risen, then the prophecy is in play.

    Anakin is the square peg in the round Jedi hole. But once the Jedi are essentially eliminated, he is no longer bound by their rules and expectations. There is not over-arching Jedi order he is responsible to. It is only an awakening Anakin standing in the throne room watching his master kill his son, a son who is proving a better Jedi than any Anakin had known.

    Funny path, destiny! Anakin, through his attachments to Padme, begat Luke, who realizes his father still lives within the shell of his Sith armor and, relying upon his own intuition and growing family attachments, risks his life to turn his father back. Two men, each with serious baggage, throw that baggage away in the presence of the most evil entity in the galaxy. Luke shows his father that he would rather die than become a Sith, even were he to serve as apprentice to his own father. Anakin realizes through the unexpected, unselfish actions of his son that honor trumps all the Sith can offer.

    Had the Jedi of the Republic demonstrated such qualities, qualities present in Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin might have learned that lesson many, many years ago.

    And Luke never realizes that the ascended master who taught Ben and Yoda the tremendous potential of the force was the same Jedi that discovered his father. If Anakin is not discovered then, he likely never meets Padme. No marriage, no Luke and Leia.

    Luke fully demonstrates the best principles of the rebel Qui-Gon. In return, despite all the evil his father had done, Luke still sees the best in Anakin. Faith and confidence toward another can truly work wonders. Contrast Luke with the Jedi Council, which shows doubt from the start to finish, as Mace orders Anakin to stay at the Temple, caveated by "if what you told me is true, you will have earned my trust." Subtext = "You did what we asked. You spied on your friend. You found him a Sith. You reported him to me. But I still don't trust you, boy!"

    What Mace in-turn learns too late is that this boy he mistrusted all along was the pivotal "shatterpoint" for the Sith/Jedi conflict.
  18. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    It is only an awakening Anakin standing in the throne room watching his master kill his son, a son who is proving a better Jedi than any Anakin had known.

    Actually I believe Anakin realizes he's been self centered all this while, forgetting what he was supposed to be as a Jedi by "thinking of others instead of self".

    He even tells Palpatine this at the opera scene. Palpatine realizes (for lack of a better word) Anakin is actually right about it (gasp!) and decides he HAS to take another avenue by focusing on Anakin weakness for Padme.

    The opera scene is IMPORTANT in this respect to show that Anakin knows the Jedi way is the right one, but as he is manipulated further by Palpatine, corrupts his feelings for the Jedi "in my point of the Jedi are evil". Anakin knows he has been WRONG and corrects this in ROTJ by saving his son (others) and losing his life (self).

    What this eventually points down to AGAIN as it has been stressed frequently is that Anakin's choices (listening to Palpatine)further reiterated his downfall, when he knows what he's right about (see Opera scene).

  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    If Anakin focused on the Jedi way, he wouldn't have fallen and he could take out Padme. The twins weren't needed to bring balance. They were a consquence of his forbidden love. It just turned out that his son was more like the Jedi he should've been, than the Jedi turned Sith that he became.
  20. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Where? To Dex's malt shop? :p

    "It just turns out . . . !!!! :oops: Heresy! I'm taking the time honored WOTF POV.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
  22. Darth_Drachonus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2005
    star 3
    It all makes perfect sense to me now! Palpatine was merely the apprentice, Padme was the Sith Master! she orchistrated it all from the very beginning when she was 14! "I'll get this little scruffy lookin sand herder to fall in love with me, while my apprentice rises to power, then, I'll marry this kid, get knocked up, and bear the fruits to destroy my apprentice, which after I die, and leave everything in the hands of this kid from Tatooine! Brilliant!"

    /end sarcasm.

    Sorry Sinister, it was too good to pass up on. [face_skull][face_laugh]:D
  23. Darth_Davi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    Ummm...I think you are missing the point as to what Sinister is saying. Had Anakin followed the Jedi way, him and Padme could have dated, could have still slept together, but when he started getting the visions about Padme dying, he would have trusted in the Will of the Force to do what it does. If it was Padme's destiny to die, he would accept it. He doesn't have to like it, but he would accept it. Instead, he doesn't follow the Jedi way, and because he doesn't trust in the Force, he is the catalyst for that which he fears the most. He is responsible for Padme's death, the self-fulfilling prophecy.
  24. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Nicely put, Darth_Davi!

    Had Anakin followed Yoda's sage advice, acted as he knew he should in Palpatine's office and let Padme's future unfold as the force intended . . . . there never would have been an OT! :_|



  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    [image=http://users.skynet.be/pekkaris/mortal.jpg]

    "Finally, one of them begins to understand."
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