:/ Hear me out.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Indecent, Sep 11, 2002.

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  1. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 10
    Just because a mod isn't posting in a thread in comms does not mean they don't care, nor that they are avoiding the points being raised.

    Often they will be disussing the points behind the scenes in the modsquad and / or AC.

    Once again, I'm not a JCC mod, and do not wish to speak on their behalf. I was just trying to illustrate why, perhaps, some mods could be reluctant to discuss the YJCC with you in public.

    This isnt simply me trying to discuss things with the mods. This is a whole lot of people trying to discuss things, and the mods not bothering with it.

    Not for the first time in this thread we have blanket allegations against "the mods" not doing their jobs properly, without much in the way of evidence to back it up.

    It would be easier to address your concerns if you would link to a few relatively recent threads here where you feel valid suggestions are raised and have been ignored by the moderators.
  2. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I was talking about the JCC mods and their lack of particiaption in the discussions...I thought the context was clear. Evidently it wasnt.

    I really shouldnt need to point out specifics pertaining to the lack of participation in the discussions by JCC mods.

    If, however, you want evidence of no participation from JCC mods in the discussion, I shall give you a few links to their latest Comms posts, and you can see for yourself.

    Here is a mod that has done his best to discuss the JCC issues, KnightWriter. Note that he has taken part in many discussions about the JCC (in the JCC threads and the ModSquad updates that have discussed the JCC). Note the Knight isnt even a fulltime JCC mod. But he is interested in discussing things with the members.

    Here are GriffZ's post in Comms. Plenty of discussion in those JCC threads. Note again that Griif isnt a fulltime JCC mod, yet he discussed with people.

    Here are Liz's posts in Comms. Not as many as the previous two, yet Liz has taken part is a few discussions. Liz is a JCC mod.

    Here are Mr Necks posts in Comms. Note the lack of discussion in the JCC threads?

    Here are JMT's posts in Comms. Now JMT wasnt a mod during many of the earlier discussions, so I am happy to give leeway there. However there have been discussions since then (mainly in ModSquad updates), and JMT hasnt taken part in them. Not all have been emotionally charged, or high tension discussions. A perfect time to discuss things.

    There is your evidence that the JCC mods dont discuss with members. Non JCC mods do, but the JCC mods just avoid.

    That is a problem. You guys can say you are listening all you like, but until you the mods are willing to discuss things with the members, then we will have problems.

    Something you said earlier, jp...
    Anyway, there's not much more to discuss - you've laid out your ideas. We've taken them to the modsquad and AC and have been working through them point-by-point for some time.

    While your ideas are sound, there are plenty of very good arguments to counter them.


    Thats good that you have discussed my comments and ideas.

    Its fine that you can disagree with me. Its fine that you have good arguments to counter them.

    But the mods that know the forum best should be willing to come and talk with us all. Discuss the points we have brought up in a public forum so everyone can have their say. Discuss their personal (it doesnt have to be the official administration stance) thoughts and ideas in a public forum so that everyone can have their say.

    Make it so that the mods cant just seperate themselves from the members. Thats the fastest way to 'Ivory Tower Syndrome'. When the mods think that they dont need to talk to the membership, then they are already ascending.
  3. jp-30 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2000
    star 10
    > There is your evidence that the JCC mods dont discuss with members. Non JCC mods do, but the JCC mods just avoid.

    From what you posted above, it seems that your issue isn't with the (YJCC) mods, but with one YJCC mod.

    Have you tried PMing him to invite him to partake in the discussion or ask why he chooses not to? It may give you a faster resolution than blanket-accusations against all of them.

    EDIT: JMT is instrumental in the YJCC discussion in the AC & modsquad. Maybe you just scared her off public discussion of this issue with the welcome you gave her.



  4. gwaernardel Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Just because a mod isn't posting in a thread in comms does not mean they don't care, nor that they are avoiding the points being raised.

    Often they will be disussing the points behind the scenes in the modsquad and / or AC.

    Once again, I'm not a JCC mod, and do not wish to speak on their behalf. I was just trying to illustrate why, perhaps, some mods could be reluctant to discuss the YJCC with you in public.


    I understand that it's hard to discuss and defend policies (JCC and non-JCC), but can you see how the reluctance on the mods' part can lead to the poor communication between the mods and users? Hard as it may be, I tend to think that actually talking to the users about new policies should be part of the job description for mods.
  5. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    I'm not sure where it's written that a mod has to participate in discussions they're assigned to moderate? Those mods are actively policing threads and attempting to maintain order.

    It's more fun for mods to take part in forums they aren't assigned to where they don't have to be as uptight.
  6. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    From what you posted above, it seems that your issue isn't with the (YJCC) mods, but with one YJCC mod.

    No, its all JCC mods. I pointed out 2 mods that have had adequate participation. Both are non-JCC mods.

    One JCC mod has had a some (but not a helluva lot) amount of participation. One hasnt been a mod for long, but in that time hasnt taken part in the discussions. One has just avoided altogether.

    As I count it, that makes perhaps a total of 0.75 out of 3 in terms of mod participation.

    Thats not an issue with one mod, but all. That means it goes here.

    JMT is instrumental in the YJCC discussion in the AC & modsquad. Maybe you just scared her off public discussion of this issue with the welcome you gave her.

    My comments were more damning of the administration and their decision-making than JMT.
    And if JMT avoids all of the discussion because of one member, without knowing what that member would be like in the discussion, then thats silly. Hell, even LMM took part in discussion, and that had a crowd of rabid posters going after him.

    But lets not continue about individual mods.

    My point stands. Mods have to be willing to discuss the relevant issues with the members. As I have shown, that is not happening efficiently.

    EDIT: Oh dear, Carter, that isnt right.

    I'm not sure where it's written that a mod has to participate in discussions they're assigned to moderate? Those mods are actively policing threads and attempting to maintain order.

    It isnt written anywhere. But if the administration wants to be effective and efficient, then members of the administration have to be willing to discuss with the populace.

    Being a mod is more than just editing, locking, banning. If that is what you think a good mod is, someone that just does that, then thats pretty sad.

    If a mod is in charge of a forum, then they have to be willing to discuss the forum with members.
  7. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    Oh, I don't know if fun is the right word :).

    I would say that it is easier to give thoughts on a subject or forum that we are not directly tied to. I was thinking along those same lines myself. Of course, if something in the Senate came up for discussion here, I would probably be in here just as much as I usually am. However, it's a bit of a different dynamic when it's not your forum or responsibilities you're discussing.

    Being a mod is more than just editing, locking, banning. If that is what you think a good mod is, someone that just does that, then thats pretty sad.


    Dagsy, there are members who believe moderators should do just those things and nothing more. I don't actually subscribe to that, but there are people who do believe that.
  8. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    But if the administration wants to be effective and efficient, then members of the administration have to be willing to discuss with the populace.

    We are doing plenty of discussions in communication, esp. where moderator replies are needed the most.

    Being a mod is more than just editing, locking, banning. If that is what you think a good mod is, someone that just does that, then thats pretty sad.

    That is their assigned job and I would be approving of said mod. under those conditions.

    If a mod is in charge of a forum, then they have to be willing to discuss the forum with members.

    Agreed, esp. if it requires their assistance. But general posting is at the discretion of the moderator.

    And it's good that many mods are participating in comm threads, cause their participation affects issues regarding the JC as a whole.
  9. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Ok, I guess its the time for mod changeover in this discussion ;)


    I am thinking, Carter, that maybe we got our wires crossed? When you said:

    I'm not sure where it's written that a mod has to participate in discussions they're assigned to moderate? Those mods are actively policing threads and attempting to maintain order.

    Did you mean that I think the JCC mods should be posting in every thread in the JCC? Because I know that isnt the case. I am talking specifically about taking part in the JCC policy discussions here in Comms.

    Does this then mean that you support my comments that the JCC mods should have been in here discussing the issues with the members?

    If thats the case (misinterpreted), then I hope we are on the same wavelength now. You dont really need to read on, because I am going to discuss the alternate possibility (and reinforce my view...which would be your view if our wires had been crossed ;)).

    If that isnt your line of thought, then I assume I was right to interpret that you meant that mods dont need to participate in the relevant Comms policy discussions.

    If thats the case, then read on.



    If a mod is in charge of a forum, then they have to be willing to discuss the forum with members.

    Agreed, esp. if it requires their assistance. But general posting is at the discretion of the moderator.


    But this is what I am saying. The mods relevant to the JCC havent been discussing the JCC issues in here.

    Unless you think that discussing policies with members is just general posting. If this is the case, then I say that this isnt general posting. This is policy discussion which is absolutely relevant to the moderator and their function on the board. This makes their posting anything but general.

    And it's good that many mods are participating in comm threads, cause their participation affects issues regarding the JC as a whole

    I agree 100%. Mods that come in and discuss are great. It does great things for the populace to be able to talk to mods.

    But even more than talking to mods, and having mod participation, is having relevant mod participation.

    If there are issues with the JCC, then the JCC mods should be discussing it with the members.

    Why is that such a hard concept to get across?
  10. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    The mods relevant to the JCC havent been discussing the JCC issues in here.

    You pointed out several JCC mods above who post primarily in comm. I don't read and track every thread here, but perhaps they're engaging in comm. threads that are about the JCC. You'll have to point out specific JCC threads here.

    Also, many threads get sidetracked and can change into diversionary topics which may have included discussions about the JCC, and in that regard, JCC moderators may not have caught that.

    Edit: OK, after rereading your earlier post, if certain JCC threads in comm can be addressed by one or two mods, it doesn't require participation by every JCC mod.
  11. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Well, I had to scrap my entire post now...glad I had to go back and reread your post ;)

    But as I said, the participation isnt by the JCC mods, but by the part-time JCC mods. The mods that arent the most relevant to the forum.

    And for policy discussion, for major issues, it isnt good enough for part timers, the ones not so relevant, to be the ones discussing. Its good that they do, but for matters of the JCC, it should be the JCC mods that discuss.

    Heres an analogy for you. Think the current LMM situation, of which you are very familiar.

    Its great when the other mods are willing to put forward their point of view, and discuss things. However, its those that were involved in handing out the punishment that are the ones that were most relevant to the discussion. In the end, it was these guys that had to get out there and talk it over with the populace.
  12. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    But as I said, the participation isnt by the JCC mods, but by the part-time JCC mods. The mods that arent the most relevant to the forum.

    Whether full time or part time, I think they're equally relevant.

    And for policy discussion, for major issues, it isnt good enough for part timers, the ones not so relevant, to be the ones discussing. Its good that they do, but for matters of the JCC, it should be the JCC mods that discuss.

    Why not? As long as they have a handle on the situation, the part timers are just as effective as the full timers. You might as well criticize the non-assigned JCC mods for participating in JCC discussions then, but I think it's a plus for any mod to be involved where they can contribute.

    Heres an analogy for you. Think the current LMM situation, of which you are very familiar.

    Its great when the other mods are willing to put forward their point of view, and discuss things. However, its those that were involved in handing out the punishment that are the ones that were most relevant to the discussion. In the end, it was these guys that had to get out there and talk it over with the populace.


    I disagree. The LMM situation affected everyone equally, both mod and poster alike. Hence we saw many posters who never visit comm reply in the LMM threads, and their posts were just as relevant to the discussion as anyone else who was in the thick of things.
  13. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    "But as I said, the participation isnt by the JCC mods, but by the part-time JCC mods. The mods that arent the most relevant to the forum."

    No you're right. They're not here now. Maybe they're out earning money to pay their rent or something. Who knows? ?[face_plain]



    "And for policy discussion, for major issues, it isnt good enough for part timers, the ones not so relevant, to be the ones discussing. It's good that they do, but for matters of the JCC, it should be the JCC mods that discuss."

    Ah, but the JCC mods did discuss the policy changes in JCC at the relevant time. One of your points does not impact upon the other. Because they're not here now doesn't mean they weren't here then. To say they aren't posting is not to say they aren't here lurking, reading your comments and learning from them.

    And how did this thread become another JCC discussion? Weren't we looking at the boards as a whole?
    Hasn't this topic been hashed and rehashed and grilled and served with a side salad and parsley garnish yet? ?[face_plain]

  14. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    D_A, I suggested earlier that all grievances against the administration could be posted here and I don't mind it's about the JCC.
  15. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    And what exactly is your greivance, Dagsy?

    That your JCC policies are slow to take effect?
    Or that mods are ineffective?
    Or that we don't speak on command?

    ?[face_plain]
  16. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    I dont know if you and I should continue discussing this, Carter. You just cant see my point, and keep taking on side issues, issues of mod participation that I am not disputing.

    I agree that the part-time mods have a role in the discussion. That was never in dispute. I have always been happy that they discussed things. I dont want them not to discuss. I do think that they all should have their say.

    But if you cant understand that the dedicated JCC mods are an extremely important part of any JCC discussion, then there is no point continuing to talk about it. If you cant see that the dedicated mods for a forum cannot be effectively replaced in a discussion, then there is no point continuing.

    I disagree. The LMM situation affected everyone equally, both mod and poster alike. Hence we saw many posters who never visit comm reply in the LMM threads, and their posts were just as relevant to the discussion as anyone else who was in the thick of things.

    You missed my point. The point was that administrators were needed to discuss the punishment, because the other mods arent so closely involved in it. Not that the other mods couldnt discuss the issue, nothing to do with how many regular members were involved, but that the members of the administration most relevant to the decision are the ones that absolutely had to take part in the discussion (which, incidentally, didnt happen...you were the only administrator in there).

    DA:
    No you're right. They're not here now. Maybe they're out earning money to pay their rent or something. Who knows?

    I'm not talking about this thread, DA, but all the previous JCC discussions. They cant have been away the whole time. And if they were away for all of the threads, not being able to participate in any of them despite the length of time discussions went on for, then they obviously dont have enough time for moderating the JC.

    Ah, but the JCC mods did discuss the policy changes in JCC at the relevant time. One of your points does not impact upon the other. Because they're not here now doesn't mean they weren't here then. To say they aren't posting is not to say they aren't here lurking, reading your comments and learning from them.

    DA, my point is that they should be discussing things with members. Not necessarily discussing the administrations views, but their own. Lets them discuss with the members so that everyone knows where everyone else stands. Let everyone talk and find a middle ground. That didnt happen, the dedicated JCC mods barely discussed the situation with us.

    And how did this thread become another JCC discussion? Weren't we looking at the boards as a whole?

    This thread was meant to be about the mod/member relations. I started discussing the JCC as an example about how I think the administration have to do a better job talking to members, taking an interest in what they say. As I had to explain and justify my thoughts, this whole thing started getting a bit...sidetracked (but not off the track completely).

    And what exactly is your greivance, Dagsy?


    My point is that the mods have to be willing to talk to the members. Not all mods discussing all things, but the relevant mods discussing the relevant matters.

    If you want to rebuild trust, then the mods cant be hiding away. If you want the members to have confidence in the administration, then be open with us.

    DA, if I were to have an issue with the RPG forum, one that required large scale disccussion, I would be confident you would discuss things in a thread I started.

    Yet that hasnt happened with the JCC. Only peripheral mods have been willing to talk to us. This is the sort of thing that has to stop.
  17. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    "My point is that the mods have to be willing to talk to the members. Not all mods discussing all things, but the relevant mods discussing the relevant matters."

    Yes!
    The crux of the problem!
    Now we can work to find a solution ;)

    I agree, the relevant mods should have relevant input into the issues that effect the forums they look after. I believe in most cases this is true. Without making excuses for every example to the contrary, alot of mods would rather get down to business and do their volunteer jobs than come here debate whatever is on the agenda that day.

    I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, either. I don't deny that if a thread was started about EUC ( ;) ) I'd be the first one to answer but I've never been shy of the spotlight. Maybe some are? I don't know. FOr the first time in a long time I'm not going to answer on behalf of the administration on this one. I'm just speaking for myself.

    :)

  18. Darth_Dagsy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 6
    Yes!
    The crux of the problem!


    You goose, yes that is the point...but I've had to spend a number of posts trying to find ways to get people to see it ;)

    I agree, the relevant mods should have relevant input into the issues that effect the forums they look after. I believe in most cases this is true. Without making excuses for every example to the contrary, alot of mods would rather get down to business and do their volunteer jobs than come here debate whatever is on the agenda that day.

    But the answer...well, all of the mods dont have to participate all of the little discussions. A member asking why a thread was locked. Not necessary for all mods in the forum.

    But the biggies? The ones about policy etc? It isnt right for mods to not discuss things.

    If a mod is the sort that doesnt want to partake in these discussions, well, that really sucks. One would assume that they have valuable insight into the situation. It sucks that they wouldnt want to share it with people.

    But if they are discussing it in the modsquad, but not with regular users, well, thats doubleplus bad.

    Why? Because even if they are listening and we arent told about it, it gives the members the impression they dont care for our thoughts and opinions.
    If some other mods point out that they are discussing it in the modsquad...well, that only makes the members feel like they arent important enough to hear what the mods have to say.

    The answer is simple. If members are responsible enough to be promoted to a position of moderator, then they have to be responsible enough to come in here and discuss the issues with members, be willing to make compromises of their ideas to find a mutually agreeable position (and the members have to be willing to compromise too).

    Mods being willing to discuss things with members is something so simple, but so big.

    Discussion leads to a better understanding of each others position. This leads to compromises by both parties and better mod/member relations.

    Imagine if the discussion with LMM hadnt come down to LMM basically saying that his was the opinion that matters. Imagine if he had been willing to discuss it more, and perhaps take Dooku out of the banner. There would have been a huge lovefest instead of a big fight.

    Discussion and compromise will make everyone happy. Things will be out in the open. People wont be able to complain that the mods are overly secretive.

    But for that, all of the mods have to be willing to come to the party.
  19. epic Ex Mod

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7

    I agree, Dagsy. The more moderator interaction with the members, especially in Communicatins, the better. Ideally, the best scenario would be if as many moderators as possible would post in Comms, and interact with the members and the communication brought up in this forum.

    However, enforcing it, especially in an online medium such as this, is difficult. Mods are individuals first, then members of the Mod Squad. To a certain extent, it's impossible to make specific Mods post and interact in this forum, or another -- simply because we're all, first and foremost, individuals with certain free time available.

    What can be done to change it? I'm not sure -- perhaps, when new moderators are chosen, they are made aware that they will be expected, as part of their new "job", to devote time to Comms, and interact with members and discuss problems that are raised -- especially if it concerns thier own forum, but not confined to it.

    But what can we do if a Mod chooses not to post in Comms? Some users, be they Mods or Regular Members, just don't feel comfortable posting in this forum. Surely that isn't deserving of a demotion -- although I don't think you're saying that, anyway.

    I do agree, like I said originally, that the more communication between Mod and Member, the better it will be for the forums overall.

  20. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    However, enforcing it, especially in an online medium such as this, is difficult. Mods are individuals first, then members of the Mod Squad. To a certain extent, it's impossible to make specific Mods post and interact in this forum, or another -- simply because we're all, first and foremost, individuals with certain free time available.


    No it isn't hard to enforce. Flat out tell the mods and admins they are required to respond to Communication posts with something substansive, or they lose their pretty colors and ban buttons.

  21. epic Ex Mod

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7

    You missed this part:

    Some users, be they Mods or Regular Members, just don't feel comfortable posting in this forum.


    I don't think it's ever been a policy that all moderators be expected, as standard practice, to post frequently in this forum. You obviously think it should be, and it's something I'm not completely disagreeing with.
  22. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    No, I didn't miss that part.

    If they are uncomfortable doing their job, then they shouldn't be in that position in the first place.

    You need to stop coddling them and tell them to do their job or you will find someone who will. Talking to us is a part of the job, even in Communications.
  23. Carter-TFN Ex-Staff, Admin Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 4
    There are plenty of mods discussing topics here in comm. You'll have to point out recent examples where this isn't the case.
  24. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    OK, how many mods are there Carter?
    How many logged in since all this began?
    How many have posted here in the last few days during all this?
    In just the LMM related threads?

    Because as just a lowly poster I know I would have had a lot more confidence in them if they had been visible.
  25. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 9
    JAS, do you believe every admin (whether affected by this situation or not) should have gotten involved in all this?
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