:/ Hear me out.

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Indecent, Sep 11, 2002.

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Moderators: JoinTheSchwarz, LAJ_FETT, Ramza
  1. Cetera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 2
    I am not asking you to ignore me, Carter. I am simply asking you to please read and respond to what we are trying to say. The last several days you have come across as not "getting it" at all. You seem to have ignored most of our points, and we have gotten very frustrated with it.

    Also, rereading that lenghty post of mine, I see that I was also rather harsh on you. I do apologize. I don't know if what I said can be considered a flame, but it is probably close. And that isn't what I am trying to do. I am just tired, and frustrated, and feel like we haven't gotten very far, and that most of what we said has been ignored.

    Has there been any response to epic's idea of the month long demotion of LMM in the mod squad? Is anyone discussing it? Or should we just give up, go home, and forget about it?
  2. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    There is discussion in Mod Squad concerning whether or not to give him a one month ban. Although some agree, there is a majority who feel that one month is too long.
  3. Vertical Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 1999
    star 6
    I read and considered each and every point made. I just didn't agree with some of them... But that doesn't mean I didn't listen, or consider them valid. I did, and I still do. I completely understand why several of you are frustrated, but that doesn't mean I agree with the suggestions of how to alleviate the situation.

    Vertical
  4. Commander Antilles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 1999
    star 6
    I'd still like to know where the other admins are. Padme Bra, SOTS, and Nathan have been entirely absent from the Comms forum lately.
  5. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Which I brought up earlier. It's hard for us to actually believe that they wouldn't show up at all just to give us the party line (e.g. "we're discussing it").
  6. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    I got here a bit late, so I've sort of missed the whole discussion thing-a-majig. Any ways, I just want to touch on one thing from early on in the thread.

    Ideally speaking, in some sort of ultra-perfect Internet utopian Star Wars OMG! Jango is so cool! nerd society, the moderators would be perfect in every way. They'd have good grammar, be nice, have acceptable hygiene habits, and would massage your aching back after a long day at the office. Sadly, that is not the case.

    ... And there was some point here I was trying to make, but my TV just made a very loud popping noise and now I'm all sidetracked... Bah! I'll just move on to my next semi-coherent argument.

    RE: The issue of mods participating in Communications:

    Now personally, I think it would be quite... recommended... for more mods to participate in this forum (as well as other forums). I'm not positive why more don't, but perhaps it's just the general atmosphere in this forum (needless to say it's quite DRAMAtic). Or perhaps they just don't have opinions on the issues discussed in here.

    //shrugs

    Now, if a mod sees a thread in here about "their forum", it would certainly be nice for them to comment on it. After all, should they not be an authority of things in said forum? Or at the very least, they've gotta have some opinions on issues regarding said forum. But you really can't force someone to post if they don't want to, and you also can't assume a mod has even seen the thread. If they aren't a Communications regular, then it's quite possible they haven't.

    So... perhaps more mods need to become Communications regulars.

    Honestly, when you get that little PM entitled "An invitation...", you have to understand your job isn't just locking threads and banning people. (Those are more perks than anything. ;) ) You also, among other things, have to discuss things - both in Comms and in ModSquad. This isn't just some weekend thing you do when you're bored. If you're just going to log in once a week for an hour, ban someone, close a thread or two, then log off... Well, I think your days should be numbered. Either shape up or ship out - because honestly, there are dozens of people who seem just as qualified as many of the mods; and very few are actually indispensable.

    (And for the record, I'm like the JC equivalent of a disposable camera.)

  7. Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 6
    Well-said, Gripp.

    I've heard time and again that the Communications forum is the single public forum where all the mods can participate and answer questions, thus being one of their "specialty" forums. But I've only seen a dozen or so mods touch Communications in the past 24 hours... maybe that's too short of notice, but out of 40+ regular mods, that's really not a very impressive percentage.

    Do I ask that they should participate, or even visit, Communications daily? No. But regardless of what forums they specialize in, Communications should always be included in that mix since they should have the know-how to answer many general questions, and also those that pertain to their particular forums.

    Maybe a way to encourage moderator participation is for a regular member to ask a mod permission to post a thread in Communications before actually doing so. The member has the mod's approval and the mod can participate and regulate that thread. Maybe that's too complicated... maybe that's not the solution we're looking for, but if anyone else has a better suggestion I'm all ears.

    GO 'CLONES!
  8. Yodave27 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2001
    star 4
    I'll ask the same questions CA asked, where are PB, SOTS and Nathan? I haven't seen any of them post here in about a week.

    And I argee with teh GrippZ on teh tissue.
  9. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    I've been reading all these threads the past week, but I haven't replied yet. Why? Because they haven't really concerned me. I don't have a strong opinion on a lot of these issues. Perhaps that is why some moderators haven't posted here recently. They simply might not care one way or the other. Yes, it would be great if every moderator would give their imput on every topic. In my opinion, every moderator should at least read the threads in Communications, even if they don't reply. I know what you're thinking. "How do we know that they are reading the threads, if they don't reply?" We don't. However, most mods want what is best for the JC. That means that they should visit Communications. After all, Communications is where they get to interact with the regular users. We may not have colorful names, but, sometimes, we do have good ideas.

    I can't criticize the mods too much. I'm sure that many of the threads created in this forum have a duplicate in the Mod Squad, and perhaps another duplicate in the Advisory Council. For all we regular users know, the moderators who aren't seen in this forum, are actively discussing the topic in the Mod Squad or AC. Sure, it'd be nice if they stopped by and let us know their thoughts. However, the majority of the decisions regarding the boards are made in the Mod Squad or the AC, not Communications. Asking the mods to post their thoughts in three different places could be seen as a waste of time. After all, they have more to do than just decide on new policies. They have trolls to ban and threads to lock. Not to mention the fact that they should be able to enjoy these forums, and they should have time to talk about Star Wars, the reason we all came here in the first place.

    However, I think that more interaction with the regular users would greatly benefit mod/member relations. Last week, I posted a thread on manual signature images here in Communications. What would have happened if a moderator came up with the idea? Chances are, it would have been posted in the Mod Squad, and the AC. At most, it would have been mentioned in a Mod Squad update. For board-related decisions, there should be a thread created in Communications. A lot of regular members have good ideas. We often can see things from a different perspective, which is a good thing. If a moderator has an idea or wants input on how to improve the boards, they should create a thread in Communications. Perhaps the Mod Squad forum should only be used for things that involve privacy, such as discussions involving certain regular users.

    If ModX has an idea on a change for the board, a thread should be created in Communications first. Just mentioning certain things in a Mod Squad update isn't good enough. Mod Squad updates are often vague, and don't really say very much. If a separate thread is created, then it is less likely for the thread to go off topic, and it won't get littered with "Thanks for the update!!" posts. In my opinion, there is one thing that makes the Communications forum great: everyone can post there. This means that it doesn't matter whether you are an Administrator or a brand new member. Everyone has a voice. If something doesn't involve private user information, there is no reason to talk about it behind closed doors.

    If there is only a thread created in Communications, then us regular members know which mods are discussing the topic. Also, it would cut down on redundancy. I can't blame a mod for not wanting to post his or her thoughts in three different forums. That is why the Communications forum needs to be fully utilized. If the mods are discussing future plans for YJCC in the Mod Squad, they should discuss it in the open, in Communications. After all, if something is only posted in the Mod Squad and AC, there is no way for a regular member to know what is being discussed. As I understand it, the Advisory Council was created to help bridge the gap between moderators and members. However, regular members cannot utilize the AC members if the
  10. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    I am here but I have nothing to contribute at this time.

    Just thought I'd check in with the members to let them know that I'm posting in Communications regularly and feeling fine.
  11. GriffZ Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2001
    star 6

    DA, just being around you again is... intoxicating.

  12. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Griff.....I truly, deeply love you.
  13. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    I haven't been around during this incident as much as I should have and for that I apologize. Real life and all that. To explain the reason behind my initial decision to warn LMM instead of ban him, based on what I saw I really didn't think this was an enormous issue. From what I saw, he did a little spamming. I didn't see the flaming. Had I, I would have had no problem banning him on the spot. I treated the situation as I do all similar ones. I warned him and intended to ban him if he didn't knock it off. It had nothing to do with his being a mod.
  14. epic Ex Mod / RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 4, 1999
    star 7

    There is discussion in Mod Squad concerning whether or not to give him a one month ban. Although some agree, there is a majority who feel that one month is too long.

    Just to clarify, when I said "one month", I was referring to the demotion, not an actual ban.

    YodaJeff said:

    To sum it all up, I think that new ideas, whether thought of by a regular member, AC member, or moderator, should be placed in Communications, and not hidden in the Mod Squad, AC, or the Mod Squad update. A new thread should be created. This will give the users a better idea what is going on, and will allow them to better voice their opinions. I'm not asking for the Mod Squad to be made public. I understand that it does have benefits as a private forum. However, I think that mod/member relations would be improved if the members were able to hear from the mods in this forum. There is no reason to expect moderators to voice their thoughts in three different forums, when they can sufficiently voice their thoughts in Communications.


    I agree with this. A lot of times, Mods discuss certain things frequently among ourselves in the Mod Squad, and I think, to a certain extent, that takes over from discussion in Communications.

    Security issues, issues of a private nature, etc etc, should stay in the Mod Squad, but I do think general issues and new ideas that effect the general populace should be discussed openly between Admin and Member.

    Additionally, getting back to what was talked about on the last page, I think Moderators are individuals first, and then members of the Mod Squad second. Personally speaking, if I disagree with something, I'll say so publicly -- even if it isn't in accordance with the rest of the Mod Squad. I understand the advantages of a "United Front", but if that united front is proclaiming something that I disagree with, then I will make my own, personal opinions heard in this forum.


  15. NathanDahlin Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2000
    star 6
    As Night4554 posted earlier, I've been very busy in RL. Sorry for not responding sooner!

    Quote:
    In my opinion, every moderator should at least read the threads in Communications, even if they don't reply. I know what you're thinking. "How do we know that they are reading the threads, if they don't reply?" We don't. However, most mods want what is best for the JC. That means that they should visit Communications. After all, Communications is where they get to interact with the regular users. We may not have colorful names, but, sometimes, we do have good ideas.

    I agree with you and try to keep up-to-date on what's going on in Communications, even if I don't comment. I've been pretty busy in RL lately, so I didn't see this thread until yesterday. I didn't respond until today because most of the good posts in this thread seem to have been made between then and now.

    YodaJeff, yours is one of those great posts so I'll address a few of your points.

    Quote:
    If a separate thread is created, then it is less likely for the thread to go off topic
    "less likely"? Perhaps. But it's been my experience that serious threads in Communications are often spammed off-topic by multiple people and/or hijacked by people with grudges against certain moderators. That's one of the reasons I discuss things in Mod Squad HQ, as opposed to Communications. I understand completely how you guys would like us to discuss things where you can read and participate, but there are many unsavory individuals who "spoil the barrel", so to speak. That's why, whenever policy discussion comes up, I post in the Mod Squad.

    Quote:
    Last week, I posted a thread on manual signature images here in Communications. What would have happened if a moderator came up with the idea? Chances are, it would have been posted in the Mod Squad, and the AC. At most, it would have been mentioned in a Mod Squad update.

Your idea was a good one. Hence, it was brought up in Mod Squad and we've been discussing it. The fact that you're not a moderator made no difference. You brought up valid points regarding how manual siganture pics could be abused, and we've been discussing whether or not we should forbid them.

Quote:
Perhaps the Mod Squad forum should only be used for things that involve privacy, such as discussions involving certain regular users.
Again, not a bad idea. But in order for that to happen, you guys would need to help us clean up Communications. There are so many disgruntled trolls that are fond of igniting issues in hopes of causing trouble and/or attacking the mods they don't like. In that environment, it's impossible to hold civil, serious discussions on how to improve the boards. When our forum was being hacked, we had a similar problem. Everything we said was being taken out of context by a malicious individual and torn apart by his friends. Many of those friends have openly defended him in this very Communications forum.

Just_A_Slacker, whether or not you have legitimate points or good ideas (and I think that sometimes, you do), the sarcastic, negative, cynical attitude that you seem to always display really makes us uninclined to listen to you seriously. When you bash us in just about every post you make in this forum, none of us really want to listen to you. You haven't let go of your grudges, as evidenced by your signature. If you want your opinion to be given any value by those who read it, you'll find yourself much more successful if you improve your tone. Just an honest observation/suggestion./>/>/>/>/>/>/>/>
  • Gay-LenKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2000
    star 5
    "Personally speaking, if I disagree with something, I'll say so publicly -- even if it isn't in accordance with the rest of the Mod Squad. I understand the advantages of a "United Front", but if that united front is proclaiming something that I disagree with, then I will make my own, personal opinions heard in this forum. "

    I just wanted to add that I personally have a great deal of respect for every mod that conducts him/herself as epic does. It takes a lot to come here and break with the crowd, and it is definitely appreciated.



  • YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Nathan, thanks for taking the time to reply.

    The way I see it, there are basically three different types of regular users who post in Communications:
    1. Those who agree with the administration, no matter what the issue is.
    2. Those who disagree with the administration, no matter what the issue is.
    3. Those to actually consider the issue, look at it from different points of view, and actually think about their reply. They think about the pros and cons, and they give their honest opinion on the issue. These are the people who actually care about the JC.

    I understand that there are people who jump on any possible chance to attack the Administration or certain moderators. If people spam the thread off topic, or hijack the thread, they should be punished, whether warned, or banned. As it is now, I don't think it is fair to all the regular users who want to have civil discussions about issues that relate to the JC. We are, from a certain point of view, being punished. Just because a few people have personal grudges or like to spam, the rest of us are unable to have serious discussions about the future of the JC.

    I can't really blame mods for not wanting to come out of the Mod Squad to discuss things in Communications. I would hope that things are a lot more peaceful there, and that people don't spam or derail topics as often. They can have civilized discussions, and they can make their points clear.

    If only there was a way to "clean up" Communications. A way to let everyone peacefully discuss future policy, without disruptions. Is this possible? I don't know. But I think that it is a goal that everyone should try to work towards.

    "you guys would need to help us clean up Communications."

    I don't know how much regular members can do. All I can do is try to keep my posts on topic, and if a thread gets derailed, I can try to bring it back on topic, if I have something worthwhile to add. Other than that, regular members can't help too much. LMM received a two day ban for spamming Communications. Most people seem to agree that it was a fair, if not too harsh, penalty for that offense. I'd like to see regular users get banned for two days, after being warned to stop spamming or derailing topics in Communications. It'd certainly make them think twice before doing it again.

    Let me elaborate on one of my previous comments:
    "If a separate thread is created, then it is less likely for the thread to go off topic."
    Often, there are multiple things being discussed in a Mod Squad update. While I might be trying to discuss one of the issues, the next post could be saying "Thanks for the update!", or could be discussing a different issue. When multiple things are being discussed at one time, it is harder to have a good discussion about any one of the topics. If there are three important things from the past week, there should be three threads. This way, each thread will have a specific topic, and it will be easier to have a discussion about that topic, without interruptions.


    I noticed JMT created a thread in YJCC, asking the regular members what they would like to change. In my opinion, this is a big step towards improving mod/member relations. Sure, some of the ideas that regular users come up with may not be feasible. The fact that the mods would "lower themselves" to ask the regular users for input means a lot. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it, after being a moderator for a while, your perspective changes. You don't look at things the same way you looked at them when you were a regular member. That is why the voice of the regular members is so important./>
  • YODA the all powerful Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 4
    Just tossing my two cents in...

    This bunch of Administrators, IMO, is the best the JC has ever seen.

    You think communication is bad now? I remember when it was nonexistent.

    The hardest part about being an Admin is giving all of you free time to something you feel strongly about, only to have it thrown back in your face by those who devote all of their free time to pointing out how you could be doing things better.

    I don't think the problems arise from the lack of communiction, but the fact that communication in this environment is not what we are used to in the "real world." It is easy to misinterpret what people "say" and "do" in this environment of a message board.
  • wstraka5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 4
    I too have taken my time to respond to this thread and wanted to respond to some of the points that have been brought up.

    Quoting NathanDahlin:
    I agree that Comms, like the YJCC need to be cleaned up. However, there is no real way to do this. We try to keep threads on topic, but often they get derailed no matter how much some of us try and help out.

    Quoting YodaJeff:
    Often, there are multiple things being discussed in a Mod Squad update. While I might be trying to discuss one of the issues, the next post could be saying "Thanks for the update!", or could be discussing a different issue. When multiple things are being discussed at one time, it is harder to have a good discussion about any one of the topics. If there are three important things from the past week, there should be three threads. This way, each thread will have a specific topic, and it will be easier to have a discussion about that topic, without interruptions.
    I agree. I think that for the normal day-to-day stuff like the line, "we discussed problem users" that appears in every ModSquad update, a seperate thread isn't necessary. However, if there is a major issue that needs to be discussed, there should be a seperate thread on the topic.

    That being said, most of the time there is already one that is going on. Perhaps what the MS update could have could be a link to the existing thread (if it exists) or a link to a new thread that is for discussion on that topic. This might make it easier for users who want to comment on a topic to find where to go to talk about it.

    Quoting YODA the all powerful:
    I completely agree. That is one of the things that is lacking about communication over the internet were you can't see the other person's face or get their body language. Yes, Emoticons work, but they don't work completely. I have had cases were people have wondered if I was mad at them, even when I used an emoticon. Unfortunatly we are going to have to put up with this until computers can show us chatting away in real time./>/>/>/>/>/>
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