Heaven & Hell: Views on paradise and punishment

Hell is just the garbage dump outside of Jeruslam.

 

Thanks epic.

 

Okay, I found (with help) the passages referencing God's relationship to love.

1 John 4:7-8

"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

So I take that to mean that love can come from nowhere but God.

M. Scott

 

But isn't it common sense that love can come from us as well? Nearly everyone loves their mother, or will find love with another person. I feel that to say that God is that love rather cheapens it. Not to mention people who do not know God still have the ability to love.

I would understand if God gave us the ability to love (which is redundant since every ability we have was given by God), but what we do with our abilities are still our own. I take that passage (and my ability to analysis the Bible is not that great) that if God didn't give us the ability to love, then we could not love, but He did, so we can love on our own now.

 

The problem here is that there are a few types of love in the original Greek.


Brotherly love (that is, friendship) is obviously a gift of God, but it's something we're all capable of. Then there's romantic love. Again, gift of God that we're all capable of.


There's another type of love which is a little hard to explain. It's unconditional, eternal, and beyond our ability without God in our lives, because He is eternal, unconditional, and so on. It seems on the surface that those without God are able to love unconditionally in some cases (though I've found very few who do that, "lost" AND "saved"), but in reality, more goes into it than just that.

 

On a side note, I feel that there are more types of love than just what the Greeks said, such as a person may love everyone in a charitable way, romantic and friendship like you said, love for parents, others. But that strays.

There's another type of love which is a little hard to explain. It's unconditional, eternal, and beyond our ability without God in our lives, because He is eternal, unconditional, and so on. It seems on the surface that those without God are able to love unconditionally in some cases (though I've found very few who do that, "lost" AND "saved"), but in reality, more goes into it than just that.

Prove all of that

Seriously. By the way I generally define love, there is one condition to receive God's love, and that is that we must accept it. Just a minor point, but one none the less.

Also, by eternal, do you mean for all time, or all time after we exist? This is actually something that has been bugging me, well, eternally . I have always taken eternal to mean for all time, which is an oxymoron for God and impossible for us since we had a beginning. If it is for all time since we have existed, it is still an oxymoron for God, and the word is being used wrong (a semantic argument).

Second. Do you define this love to be love with God? To me, you described it, but you didn't really say what it is. Can I feel this love for another person if we are both in Heaven? Can I feel this for other people in general if I am saved?

 

"Also, by eternal, do you mean for all time, or all time after we exist? This is actually something that has been bugging me, well, eternally . I have always taken eternal to mean for all time, which is an oxymoron for God and impossible for us since we had a beginning. If it is for all time since we have existed, it is still an oxymoron for God, and the word is being used wrong (a semantic argument)."


Difficult to say. I believe that we have been made to live eternally, but we definitely haven't been here forever, unless we have been eternally with God in His thoughts, or His will.


I don't really know that answer to that.


"Second. Do you define this love to be love with God? To me, you described it, but you didn't really say what it is. Can I feel this love for another person if we are both in Heaven? Can I feel this for other people in general if I am saved?"


Yes, to all of that. Essentially, it is God loving through you. You're the one who loves, but it is only with God's presence in your life that you're able to.

 

Matt: 5,26

Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.


Of course in you don´t pay...you stay


It isn´t eternal it seems

 

I don't believe it is. Only thing is, when you're released, you're not free to go. You die. Your release from the "prison" is eternal destruction.

 

If you have paid your debt, you are without sin, the debt is the sin isn´t it?

 

You aren't without sin; you've just suffered the consequences for all wrong-doings. The degree of the sin determines the degree of punishment, just like every good work is considered and benefits the person. So people like Gandhi, for instance, would not suffer nearly as much as someone like Hitler. Yet, at the same time, without Jesus, there is no life. He is the Breath of Life, and for those who die without Him, they cannot have eternal life. They will perish.

 

Hell is just the garbage dump outside of Jeruslam.



Not quite, that is Gehenna! Hell is the common grave of mankind, not a place of eternal torment!

If you have paid your debt, you are without sin, the debt is the sin isn´t it?

No.

Romans 6:23 Says

For the wages sin pays is death......

So when you die you have paid your debt of being a sinner. There is no double jeapordy in Gods justice!

 

Hell is other people....

 

Romans 6:23 Says

For the wages sin pays is death......

And when you stop sinning you stop dying

 

The Bible differentiates between inherited sin and willful sin, between an act of sin over which a person is repentant and the practice of sin.

Just living we sin, but that is inherited sin from Adam and Eve.

Sin in literally, a missing of the mark, according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the ?mark? that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also unrighteousness, or lawlessness.

 

What if heaven & "hell" exist simultaneously on the same realm? If hell is supposedly a complete separation from the Divine, then HOW do we define that separation? Who defines it? Indeed, what does it mean to be "separated" from God? I will forever refuse to see "hell" as a place of fire & brimstone, etc., etc., but I'm starting to open-up to the concept of hell as this...this...state-of-being (for lack of a better way to put it). I?m just not sure that the division between heaven & hell is as black & white as many Christians seem to conceptualize it. Thoughts?

 

I think that concept is biblically justified. When describing Hades (or hell) and paradise, Jesus said there is an impassible chasm, that none can pass. In terms of how different they are, hell is described as a never-ending abyss, it's described as the grave, an "outer darkness", and a place of burning. Heaven is described quite differently, as you know.

In Revelation, helll and death are thrown into a place called the "lake of fire", whicvh burns for eternity. All lost people who were in hell, and who existed upon the earth up to the time of judgment, will be thrown in the lake of fire as well. Then it gets tricky. Most Christians say they burn there for eternity. However, only one passage could show this to be true, and that passage could actually be translated differently. And if the other parts of the Bible that speak on the fate of the lost person are to be taken literally, then this passage could also be translated more accurately. Meaning, after they've been punished for their evil deeds (and blessed for their good deeds) they cease to exist. Their life force is extinguished, and their names are blotted out of the book of life, forever forgotten.

Given the way the Bible describes both places, I'm just not sure I see the basis for a hell that is not at least SOMEWHAT like most Christians believe in. The Bible is absolutely clear on two points: 1.) it is not a pleasant place, and 2.) the punishment is eternal, whatever punishment that may be (I believe it's death).

 

The_Fireman: My friend, I always love reading your contributions, because your knowledge of the Bible is so impressive. But, for this topic at least, you & I might have trouble communicating -- only because (as I've said) I'm not satisfied with the theology 101 explanation of hell being fire, suffering, etc. I'm not -- AT ALL -- trying to insult you, but I want you to think beyond the Bible for a minute...set-aside the fire & brimstone...and discuss with me what the separation-from-God aspect of hell is all about. I want to know what YOU make of it, not what the BIBLE has to say about it.

I also challenge you to ponder this "impassible chasm" of which Jesus spoke. Let's look at it as a metaphor for a moment, instead of interpreting it quite so literally.... What might make it "impassible?" And, perhaps more importantly, "impassible" to whom?

 

The_Fireman: My friend, I always love reading your contributions, because your knowledge of the Bible is so impressive. But, for this topic at least, you & I might have trouble communicating -- only because (as I've said) I'm not satisfied with the theology 101 explanation of hell being fire, suffering, etc. I'm not -- AT ALL -- trying to insult you, but I want you to think beyond the Bible for a minute...set-aside the fire & brimstone...and discuss with me what the separation-from-God aspect of hell is all about. I want to know what YOU make of it, not what the BIBLE has to say about it.

I appreciate the compliment. Truth is, I anticipated this reponse. Here's the deal: I have no opinion on this except what the Bible has to say. My theology is based ENTIRELY off that. I either have to reject the Bible or accept it, because I just don't see the logic in picking and choosing beliefs from various religions. That, to me, would be no different from making up your own theology on the afterlife. I've never been, so I can't possibly presume to know what it is, unless I listen to Someone I trust DOES know what it's like (as they created it ).

I also challenge you to ponder this "impassible chasm" of which Jesus spoke. Let's look at it as a metaphor for a moment, instead of interpreting it quite so literally.... What might make it "impassible?" And, perhaps more importantly, "impassible" to whom?

I agree with you in that it is most likely not a literal chasm. I believe hell and heaven, while literal and somehow physical, are on a different plane. So I don't believe there's actually some kind of gulf or something seperating the two places. As to what makes it impassible and to whom it is made so, I'd have to say God made it that way, for everyone else. I'd imagine God could go wherever He wanted. As for us, in the story Lazarus was not allowed to cross over and help the rich man, who was also obviously not allowed to pass either. And according to Jesus, none can cross (except maybe Him?).

 

let my ask a question, do you guys beleive that you will go to heaven/hell beacuse of what you do? this as a punnishment/reward for your time on earth?

 

Personally speaking, no, I don't believe that. I believe, as the Bible says, the penalty for sin is death. Anyone with sin deserves hell and death. Why? Because God says so. Some may find that unfair, and those people are free to look elsewhere for a deity to believe in. But let me ask this question: if, hypothetically, Yahweh of the Bible IS the real God, the only God, who He says He is, does He not have the right to make the rules? If He is the Creator of everything, shouldn't all things be under His authority? And since He is not human, not on our level, it's not the same thing as some kind of heartless dictator forcing us to be something that He Himself is not. He's God, Perfection, and so has a right to demand perfection from us.

Anyway. Sin demands death, and hell is the foretaste of that. Jesus, having never sinned, "became" sin for us. He became a curse, and was forsaken by God, so that the barrier between humanity and God might be removed, and we could enter God's kingdom the way He intended for us to. We could become "sons and daughters" of God. Only through the sacrifice, and faith IN that sacrifice, is this possible for those who sin (everyone).

Having said all of that, the Bible is very clear that each deed lost people do will be paid back to them. They will reap what they sow, no more, no less. They will be both blessed for every good deed done, according to the measure of the deed (adjusted for the intent of their hearts and other such things God desires), as well as cursed for every wrong deed. When all has been paid back, they will meet their doom. For the saved person, all evil deeds will be burned up by "fire" (which I believe is the Holy Spirit), consumed and forgotten, and all good deeds will be remembered ad rewarded. Sanctification will be complete, we will be completely transformed into the "image" of Jesus, and so we will not deserve punishment, thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus. He took it all on Himself.

Anyway, this is a little longer thanI first intended. Sorry 'bout that.

 

i beleive differently, i believe hell is a place that you create for yourself by sinning. i beleive in consequence

if i steal something from a shop and then i lose something that i value, is that how 'God' punishes me? i don't think so, stealing something (not that i ever have or will) and losing something may be two seperate things, they may be karma or what ever you want to call it.

people are punnished by their sins, its called guilt and having a concience

 

From my observation that isn't much of a punishment. People generally do things they think they can get away with. Unless they really, really hurt somebody they love, much of the time they appear to have no remorse over what they've done. In situations like these, where is the justice?

 

is having remorse part of being human? there are those who don't have it, though and i pity them

 

Again, strictly from my obversation, most people don't have it. If only a few out of several do, can we really say it's a human trait? People are generally scumbags. And even the ones who are kind to people have ulterior motives much of the time. Everyone is self-centered and selfish, and they get what they can, sometimes trying their best not to make it obvious, sometimes not caring a bit how they go about it.