Amph Help me decide! Ender's game, or Song of Ice and Fire(first 3 books)

Discussion in 'Archive: SF&F: Books and Comics' started by Queen_Pixie, Nov 15, 2006.

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  1. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    I disagree. Catelyn was good in book 1. She was nothing but a worrying, pensive, frightful mother bird wimp for the next two.

    I actually became nonchalant at his sexual acts and nipple obsession and raping. It's never graphic, never in detail, and his prose is light and often comical about it. Some posters get upset when I tell them I laughed at Uswyk's tavern girl rape story in book 2, that Arya overhead, the one Clagane wanted his change back. That's why I can recommned Martin despite his utter degradation of women: he's cheeky and good at it.
  2. Raven Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 1998
    star 6

    Virtually all of Martin's best characters are crazy. Some are paranoid power hungry crazy, like Cersei. Some, like Sam, are sane-crazy. He's crazy like John Yossarian, though in a bit more even-headed way. Some are crazy honor-before-all. Some are nuts in more subtle ways, having views on reality that just don't really match up with sane views on reality - Jaime or Sandor for example. And some are just around the bend.
  3. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    [face_laugh] This is definetely the toughest question Ive ever come across in here, no joke! Id say Song Of Fire And Ice because the quality of the overall series is seamless , to me anyways.
  4. Queen_Pixie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 4
    Wow..and I thought it was just a simple question. It did get me thinking, and now I know I need to read both Ender's Game and the Song of ice and fire books.
  5. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    Yes, well, read Song of Ice and Fire first. :)

  6. Lord_Riven Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Because GRRM >> Tolkein. Any day of the week.
  7. Queen_Pixie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 4
    Which is good, because sadly..I've never made it through any of Tolkien's books. And I've tried, on more than one occasion.

    And really..a bunch of lame sex scenes aren't going to steer me away from a book. I've read the neanderthal porn known as the Clan of the Cave bear series.
  8. Lord_Riven Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    LOL. But then again nothing beats twincest
  9. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    You see it but once in 2700 pages of the first three books, and in classic Martin fashion, he showed it so comically it was more humour than vulgar. Brother coupling with sister during her period cycle right in front of their deceased relative---at that point, after unrelenting nipple words and rape and pillaging, I just smiled and shook my head.

    And that's where Martin saves himself: he's graphic and even vulgar at times, all right, but it's always brief, never serious.
  10. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Wow. I am... overwhelmed with a desire to run out and read these books.... let me just... do everything else in my life first.
  11. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    You haven't read one Martin book? :eek: Well, maybe if you weren't so hypnotised with Tolkien you'd have time to surf the waves, and who cause them. But don't worry, Martin has a fat Sam who just happens to be called Sam, is fat, and loyal to a main central character, and heaps of other Tolkien names with new spelling. ;)
  12. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    This just may be one of the reasons I avoid reading much fantasy other than Tolkien... to get away from the **** obvious Tolkien clichés... I mean, seriously, isn't one of the advantages of Fantasy that you can be creative about that stuff and do things noone's ever thought of before? Yeesh...
  13. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    I am not hypnotized by Tolkien. I am a fan sure but I am a way bigger fan of other sci-fi and fantasy authors. I just have heard stuff about these Martin books that turn me off completely to them.
  14. ShrunkenJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 5
    Hypnotized by Tolkien? Hardly. I'd just far rather fantasy authors create their own worlds rather than use thinly disguised clichés/versions of other author's worlds...
  15. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7
    Like Terry Brooks? Outright plagiarist!

    Strilo, I'll be honest with you . . . when I saw edited in the first Amazon preview page of A Game of Thrones it put me off for months. I was an angel, fresh out of heaven. Still am an angel, of course. It's true, Nat. Uncorrupted by the perversity of, ah, American spelling in Australian printed books. I don't know what decided me to buy it eventually, couple years back.

    But I did, and this is one author who can tell a story. His world building and maturity of prose is exceptional. Yes, Martin rapes women, shows cliche dragons, underclasses women to men, pillages innocents, smashes mailed soldier fists into villagers' faces, swears, shows all manner of filth and oral copulation filth . . . Santa's drow elfs, it's unrelenting.

    But like I said, unlike other authors he doesn't dwell on it, focus on it, take perverse pleasure from it. It's so cavalier in prose, it's almost comical. This saves the books. He's mature and light about it. Prudent at first myself, I became nonchalant after 2700 pages.

    Be warned, however, of the scumbags who blatantly say who dies in Amazon reviews. And the fourth book trade paperback backcovers who died previous book too. I will have to speak with the publisher.
  16. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    A Song of Ice and Fire is most certainly not a Tolkien clone. The only similarities you'll find are issues of surface vanity: both have open feudal country interrupted by castles, knights, and yes, a character named Sam. In terms of structure, style, and theme, however, the two are completely different animals. I can totally understand not wanting to read derivative drivel ala Brooks and Eragon. Dismissing A Song of Ice and Fire for the same reason is nothing but an erroneous perception.

    For the record, Tolkien's Sam is a chubby, good-natured and courageous friend. Martin's Sam is an obese, unsure coward.
  17. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    Get your tenel ka straight. The multiple shared names alone make it a Tolkien copycat. [face_shame_on_you]
  18. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    I hope you're joking. If not, I strongly disagree. I can't even think of any shared names except Sam.
  19. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    I'll give you another: Pypar, of the Night's Watch. The Tolk man had his Pippin. Both names are frequently truncated to Pip/Pyp. Coincidence? Me thinks not. All those thousands of words in the eng binary, and he uses a Pip? See if you can find the others. [face_laugh]

    I love it. There's almost no fantasy author or fantasy "industry reviewer" who must mention Tolkie. It's burned in their brains. The poor things . . . They're drug addicted!
  20. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Sounds more like a case of homage to me, especially since your recent ?citation of plagiarism? is based on a purely background character. Other than that, until A Song of Ice and Fire is reedited to include a Dark Lord or the instant fix of destroying/gaining an ultimate Object of Power, I?ll be content with looking at the greater style and theme Martin is working with as the ultimate descriptors of his series.

    And Ex, I?m surprised you don?t go out of your way to point out a key example of Martin?s originality. Isn?t Tyrion Lannister a complete deconstruction of that bearded-dwarf archetype you?re always grumbling about?
  21. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    Not at all, Eze. Dwarfs are what some people call abnormally short people. Tyrion is just a midget, a disfigured one. What does his beard and ax have to do with archetype dwarfs? His character depth is well realised in the first two books, depsite his neverending sex scenes. He took backstage in the third book to make room for new ones. I've yet to read the fourth.
  22. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Hmm, I can?t really decipher that post. I was saying Tyrion is a key example of Martin?s defiance against cliché, and that to me said character is much more indicative of the author?s originality than a couple of ?copy-cat? names, as you put it.
  23. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    It's more than copycat names---he uses Will and John (in their various spellings), two of fantasy's most common generic names. It's gotten to the stage where I won't even read a book if I see a John main character. It informs me right up this is an author who can't be bothered thinking new, as innane as it sounds. ;)

    I don't see old George's "defiance against the cliche" with Tyrion. A disfigured and socially odd character is hardly new. It may only seem such when you're inundated with endless farmboy heroes and tough red-maned chicks.
  24. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Well, given that Tyrion is constantly described as ?the dwarf? by other characters within the narrative, it certainly seems to me that Martin is giving his own unique take on a common fantasy trope. But even beyond this, I?d say that Tyrion is one of the gems of modern fantasy no matter how you?re analyzing him. The character?s much more than ?socially odd.? Of more consequence to me his ability to constantly remain in a position of control and awareness when those supposedly greater individuals around him become nothing more than victims, or his sense of compassion in relation to those very few he deems deserve it.

    And I assure you, my literary diet is most certainly not inundated with farmboy hero crap.
  25. celestia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    i would definitely go with ender's game. it's still one of my favorite books (though the other novels were a bit blah excepting ender's shadow... which is essentially ender's game again from a different perspective) but then i've never even opened the other, so i can't really be objective here.

    though if you haven't read ender's game you definitely should. even if you just check it out from the library.
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