Here goes nothing, *hesitantly types* religion.

haha, trust me the last thing I need is advice on philosophy from a Christian.

First off, I don't think anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, is really going to beat me in a debate on this subject because I'm actually, as of right this moment (today), finished with my philosophy degree at Oregon State (I need to finish up my credit requirement next term, then I get my BS in Philosophy). You can certainly have your opinions and I'll listen to them, but you're not going to be able to tell me that you've "discovered the truth" and that "one day you'll see it too." That's just nonsense. I've given these matters more thought than you could possibly imagine or dream of, and the conclusions I have come to are based on logic, reason, and the way the world actually works.

You can all live your life with whatever delusions you want, and I think that's great as long as it gets you by, more power to you, but I will live my life without the constraint of a religion that wants to make me its tool. I answer to nobody, and I am nobody's tool, I am a powerful force beyond good and evil and above morality that will not be contained by the ideas of average people. I create my own values and live life to its fullest without strings attached.

If you could only fly so high and be so free, you would realize the power that comes with being your own creator.

I go to the high school where all the anti-war kids who get beat up transfer to. I have lost my delusions about how niceness will save the world and how Jesus belongs in the Constitution. Uy. Oh, and Larena Jade, you will never gain respect for Christianity from non-Christians by preaching lovey-dovey and nothing else. I wish we could convert atheists and agnostics, but the fact is most of them are happy just the way they are (many of them happier than us). What I would prefer is if all atheists would just respect Christians and we could have some good discussions and end them without feeling bitter. Instead of just making every rebuttal "just let Jesus into your heart and you will see the light!", two metaphors in one sentence that you should think about more deeply, why don't you stop to discuss biblical history a little more in depth?

"Yes, the price to get to heaven is VERY high."

No, it really isn't. All it requires is belief in God and Jesus Christ, a good faith effort to follow the ten commandments, and complete disclosure of your sins to God (or if you're Catholic, a priest).

"Ultimately, I think it's a misguided fantasy of what would happen. I wish the Christians were right and there was a nice place called heaven you went to after life, but then again I'm not sure it's really worth it."

Again, worth what? Say your prayers, don't kill or steal or lie or cheat, and if you do, beg for forgiveness. God doesn't ask a lot.

We have a lot of misconceptions about heaven and hell, especially about hell. Everybody took Dante's Inferno literally around the Middle Ages (I recommend The Divine Comedy for everyone who hasn't read it, it's unarguably the greatest Christian allgory), and had a field day painting pictures of poor souls burning and being raped by demons and all sorts of nasty rotten things. The word torture is never used to describe hell, but the word torment is. The metaphor of being 'cast into the lake of fire if your name is not in the book of life' is used, but another thing we forget is that the bible is chock full of metaphors that we should not always take literally. As for heaven, we don't even know what heaven is. It is called the Kingdom of Heaven, and almost always portrayed as a place we would perceive as physical, but all we know beyond that is that only the righteous reside there.

I never intended to out-debate you by any means. A discussion like this with someone 10 years older than me is a rare opportunity, and I'm happy to take the time to learn from it.

One more thing. A.D. does not stand for After Death. If it did, there would be 20-some missing year in there between Christ's birth and death. A.D. is short for 'anno Domini,' greek for "the christian era."

Yeah you're absolutely right about AD, but some people do think it means "after death," lol.

"Again, worth what? Say your prayers, don't kill or steal or lie or cheat, and if you do, beg for forgiveness. God doesn't ask a lot."

It's a little more than that. I mean, I can't agree with a single one of those statements categorically. Don't kill? I'll kill if my life is in danger, or if I feel that my safety is significantly threatened. Steal? Well, I don't have much use to steal, but I would if my survival depended on it -- and I wouldn't feel guilty about it either. I would just be doing what I had to do.

Now as for lying, I find nothing wrong with lying so long as it advances your personal goals. Nietzsche had a quote, "The powerful lie because it takes more will to do so."

There is a lot more to Christian morality I simply disagree with, for instance the idea of equality is absolutely ludicrous. I don't think people are equal at all. I think some people are completely worthless (i.e. most Somalians) and I think others are invaluable. So if the question was to sacrifice 10 starving Somalians or Bill Gates, obviously I'd choose the Somalians and not think twice about it. There wouldn't be any moral dilemma there at all. A moral dilemma involves something with two tough choices. Killing Somalians isn't a tough choice, it's just something that should happen to cull the herd and destroy the weak. Bill Gates drives the economy in this country to a significant degree, i.e. he contributes a statistically significant amount to it. He employees, what, like 50,000 people? He has even donated $1 billion to charity, so even if you're a Christian and value such charitable contributions (I value some, not others), you still have to conclude that Bill Gates is more useful to the human race than 10 Somalians ever could be.

The fact is, people just are not equal. Some people ARE better than other people, there's no question about it. The only people I ever find who think everyone is equal are very mediocre people or weak people who only wish they were equal to great ones. They think just by saying it, that somehow it'll become true. "Hey I'm just as good a person and just as important as Michael Jordan!" No. You're not. You probably never will be. MJ meant more to many more people than you could ever mean, most likely (I'm speaking of the average person here), and that makes him far more valuable than some mediocre tool living in the 'burbs with a wife and two kids.

BUT Christianity has this idea of "equality of souls before God," or essentially that to God we all have different roles and we all are important in "God's plan" and he knows we all can't do as much, but he still counts as equal. Now that's a great idea to mediocre people, but to someone who is great, that's a repulsive idea.

I am not equal to other people. I am cut from a different cloth. I work harder, I'm smarter, I'm more dedicated, I'm more intuitive, I'm in better shape, I think harder, the idea that I am equal to some bum on Burnside? What the heck is that supposed to mean? Of course not! If someone asks me if I'm better than a bum, YES I am better than a bum. The same goes for my view of other great people. To say that I'm equal, right now, to George Lucas is complete hogwash. Lucas is one of the most influential people in film history and a great man. I am potential right now, and I could even become the next George Lucas, but until I do, he is still a great man and I'm just a work in progress. The idea of equality is completely idiotic.

We have political equality -- that is about it. A world where everyone truly was equal would suck so hard. It would be no fun at all. It would just be boring and useless.

The reason I can rarely have a decent conversation with a Christian is because they haven't given any thought to their values, they just hold them unconditionally. I've met a handful of Christians who I actually respected, but I think most of them are absolute sheep with no regard for science or logic at all. Now I've met a few who were ver

Most of the atheists and agnostics I meet lean toward socialist/communist beliefs, which are the exact opposite of yours. That amuses me a little.

The majority of your essay on the worthlessness of the human soul and the needlessness of morality does not. But I regress. I do not have the time or energy to properly respond to such a well written rebuttal, but I will make a few points.

"He has even donated $1 billion to charity, so even if you're a Christian and value such charitable contributions (I value some, not others), you still have to conclude that Bill Gates is more useful to the human race than 10 Somalians ever could be."

Less than 4% of his net worth, which is thousands of times that of an average citizen. Whoohoo. I don't think the Somalians got a piece of the pie.

"The powerful lie because it takes more will to do so."

I disagree with that statement. It doesn't take a lot to lie if it will bring you self-betterment. Preschoolers learn that before they learn to read. What takes will is to resist the lie and to tell the truth. I will admit, however, that it takes more skill to lie. Unless you have Karl Rove in your ear. =p


Am I your enemy for being Christian?

It's interesting how you must always start your posts by laughing at me, like it gives you some kind of reasurrance over me. Or maybe you have to add some kind of easy goinging mocking attitude to protect this thread from something serious. It is your gaurd, it makes you comfortable.




And I'm not seeking to "win" a "debate", you can laugh at me for this one when you reply also but I'm seeking to win a soul.

You said the price was to high, I was just telling you that it wasn't. No debate, nothing. So please don't think it's a debate, I was just informing you that the price isn't to high.


Your last quote is really...interesting. *shudders*

...what?

"Yes, the price to get to heaven is VERY high."

You said that.

And I sincerely hope you're not trying to convert our dear friend Bowen. He might eat you. btw, he doesn't need 'reassurance,' he thinks we're funny.

Did you read what I said after? I said Yes the price is very high, BUT JESUS HAS ALREADY PAID IT.


And no, I'm not trying to convert Bowen. Because I can't. But God can, I am a pen of a ready writer.


But another good question, does the Holy Spirit work through hardwire cables and all the little parts that make up what we call the internet? Pretty interesting.
Because I KNOW that I cannot do anything, all my words are pretty much usless. Nothing fancy I say is going to change anyone. But I also know God works through christians who are willing to stand up for Him; it isn't what I say, it's what He does. All we have to do as christians is stand up to the call and not be afraid of critisism and mocking, take a step of faith.


It says right in the Bible. You cannot please God AND the world, you have to choose. It is better to be cold than lukewarm.

Wow, I read that and the first part sounded kinda rude. It's amazing how voice inflection is so important, you only realize it when you CAN'T put the voice into it.
So yeah, wasn't trying to be a smarty pants when I corrected ya. SOrry!