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Hereditary Force ability and Jedi code

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by DarthSyphus, May 26, 2005.

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  1. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    If the ability to use the Force has a genetic component, and if Jedi are forbidden to marry and have children, then the Force "genes" will disappear.

    For example, the ability to play basketball requires that you are tall. The "Basketball Order" identifies children likely to be tall, and then forbids them to have children. After a few generations, there will be fewer and fewer tall people in the population.
     
  2. JBRO_13

    JBRO_13 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 1, 2002
    I guess there are just that many people constantly popping up with midichlorian counts high enough to deem them Jedi.

    To use your example, not everyone in the NBA is a descendant of a tall person or a basketball player.
     
  3. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    Yes, but according to Ep.I the Jedi usually identify those with potential at an early age, so they are very good at finding "tall people" as in my example. And, also, this artificial selection process against "Force potential" went on for 1000 years. This is lots of time to reduce the frequency of the "Force potential" genes.

    Maybe these genes haven't disappeared yet, but the combination of Hereditary Force ability + Jedi code forbidding marriage makes it certain that they will eventually disappear.
     
  4. RedHanded_Jill

    RedHanded_Jill Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 16, 2004
    maybe sleeping around is implied in the jedi mandate...
     
  5. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    I don't think that the Jedi code forbids sex itself, but emotional attachments.. So the Jedi may be _forced_ to sleep around :)
     
  6. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    That and I think they took into account a certain number of attachment-rule violations in the code. The Corellian knights frequently had kids, along with established lineages. Also, exceptions were granted under special circumstances. Ex. Ki Adi Mundi had four wives and a bunch of kids, sanctioned because his people were declining. I wonder if those in the Agri-corps and such were permitted to fall in love. Empty fornication does not seem very Jedi-like.
     
  7. MasterVodo

    MasterVodo Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 9, 2005
    Good point about the agriculture corps. There is more to the Jedi order than just the knights. Perhaps the attachment rule applies only to them due to thier dangerous potential? It does seem weird that Qui-Gon points out that children born in the Republic are identified easily. You would think the Jedi could "sense" them anywhere! Do they do automatic midi-chlorian screenings in Rebublic birthing wards to make it easier?

    Of course I'm sure The Force itself would not let the midichlorians dissapear, genetics or no genetics!
     
  8. Tion_Meddon

    Tion_Meddon Jedi Master star 4

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    May 18, 2004

    1.) Jedi are allowed to have sex, just not commit themselves or get attached. ;) HEy, it's straight from GL!

    2.) EVERYONE is force-sensitive, EVERYONE. Ther eis no "force gene" only Jedi and Sith have. The Jedi just take all the orphans of the galaxy, that are more Force-sensitive than others, to be trained as Jedi.

     
  9. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    So, you have to be an orphan to become a Jedi?

    Also, everyone may be Force-sensitive, but some are more sensitive than others, and this is a hereditary trait. So, again, if Jedi are not supposed to have children, then the general Force-sensitivity in the population should decline.
     
  10. Ghetto-Wookie

    Ghetto-Wookie Jedi Youngling

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    May 27, 2005
    You gotta do whatcha gotta do to keep The Force alive
     
  11. DarthSkeptical

    DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 19, 2001
    I think the logical conclusion here is that the Jedi Code (as it exists during the latter days of the Old Republic) is contrary to the will of the Force, and this is one of the reasons that the Force is out of balance. I don't think we're meant to think that the Jedi are right to employ this "anti-marriage" stance. Likewise, Anakin's version of marriage is far too possesive and selfish to be seen as a model, either. The "balanced" view of interpersonal relations is, I think, expressed in Yoda's advice to Anakin in ROTS.
     
  12. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    I'd agree that the no-marriage thing was one of the big imbalances for the Chosen One to correct. And if the post-ROTJ EU is to be believed, the flaw is corrected. Still, I wonder how the knights of old handled their . . . urges.
     
  13. RedHanded_Jill

    RedHanded_Jill Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 16, 2004
    it strikes me as odd that the jedi who uphold the ideals of the republic get to sleep around the universe unprotected.
     
  14. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    It does. The whole sex-without-love thing bothers me even more.
     
  15. RedHanded_Jill

    RedHanded_Jill Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 16, 2004
    thus by that rationale, midichlorians are distributed not so much genetically but randomly. but it can be passed genetically. maybe the genetics would be too powerful. maybe that is why the love/attachment thing is forbidden. it would create too many high dollar jedis.
     
  16. General_Marlboro

    General_Marlboro Jedi Youngling

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    May 31, 2005
    Have sex, have some kids, then become a Jedi so the misses can raise the kids.
     
  17. poisoncow

    poisoncow Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 24, 2005
    Its hard to debate this considering the nature of the topic being fictional. But im going to say genetics has very little to do with the force. I think Anakin in and of himself demonstrates this. He was made by the force, which i suppose would prove the "will of the force" selects those that are given the ability to use the force. The force commands almost everything in that universe, it chooses the fates of all who inhabit it. I'll also suggest that Anakins offspring are considered dangerous because of Anakins being the chosen one. It was the will of the Force to allow Luke to be sensitive, and the force again that allowed him to sway Vader from the sith and fullfill the prophecy. So jedi have no need to have children as force sensitivity isnt selected by or passed through genetics, but a gift from the force.
     
  18. Mr-Mynock_

    Mr-Mynock_ Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 10, 2005
    Force sensitivity is not genetic. By definition midis are a simbiotic life form, therefore can not be a genetic trait. BY the fact that the Jedi order has thrived for a thousand generations, aparently the lack of reproduction of the jedi is not a major issue. ThiS in itself would imply midis come into existance in a host independant of heredity. In the case of the Skywalkers, the force abilities of Anakin's offspring could be determined buy "the will of the force" or destiny, rather than heredity. The only model for this to be possible would be if midis resemble viral life forms which can be transmited, but again this is not heredity. By the fact that the force "binds us, surrounds us, and holds the universe together" shows they are not uncommon it is just the Jedi selecting those which have the highest number of midi-chloriens for their ranks as they are the MOST LIKELY to succeed in their training.

     
  19. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    Could it be, however, that some conditions necessary for/ condusive to a high midichlorian count (e.g. favorable ambient cell pH; relative abundance of various enzymes; etc.) are hereditary.
     
  20. Mr-Mynock_

    Mr-Mynock_ Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 10, 2005
    Now that's thinking outside the box! Meesa be liken dat.
     
  21. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    Its hard to debate this considering the nature of the topic being fictional. But im going to say genetics has very little to do with the force.

    I disagree. Why would they even bother with Luke and Leia if the Force was not strong with them? Why would the Emperor be threatened by them? Why would Luke say that the Force is strong in his family? Why would Ben and Yoda think of Leia as another chance if they did not implicitly assume that she was strong in the Force. Everyone takes it as obvious that the offspring of Skywalker will be strong with the Force, and this definitely indicates a hereditary component to the ability to use the Force.
     
  22. DarthSyphus

    DarthSyphus Jedi Youngling star 1

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    May 26, 2005
    By definition midis are a simbiotic life form, therefore can not be a genetic trait.

    The ability to use the Force depends on both the midichlorians, but also on the host organism, because midichlorians need hosts, just as hosts need midichlorians. So, it's quite possible that some people have a genetic predisposition to interface "well" with the midichlorians in their cells, while certain species may even lack that predisposition altogether, or even have defensive mechanisms against it, which explains why the Force does not work on Jabba and Watto.
     
  23. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    I just said as much four posts up from this. ;) :)
     
  24. DarthSkeptical

    DarthSkeptical Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 19, 2001
    Hmnmm. Midi-chlorians sure are pesky li'l things, aren't they?

    We have only one example in all the films of Force heredity, and one example of midi-chlorian manipulation at the embryonic level. Unfortunately for this discussion, you can't really question either of these, or the whole saga falls on its face.

    I think we just have to accept as a convention of this universe, that it just is an inherited trait, a gift of the Force for particular bloodlines, and that is just is something that can perhaps be tampered with by extremely sensitive force users.

    Heh, maybe midi-chlorians DO have a place in a work of fantasy, after all. They're apparently measurable by scientific means, but operate anti-scientifically. (If they worked scientifically, cutting off limbs would have only a temporary effect on cell concentration. Thus Lucas' claim that Obi-Wan reduced Vader's Force powers immediately rings false.) This would tie in with the Flash Gordon approach to science, in which technology is more a form of magic that empirical truth.

    In a sense, midi-chlorians make STAR WARS even more fantastic because they raise more unanswerable questions than the OT ever did about the Force. How long does a single midi-chlorian live? If they don't reproduce, as is implied in Lucas' assertion that cutting off body parts reduces your midi-chlorian count, do they gradually die over the course of your life, making you get stronger as you grow to maturity, then gradually less powerful in the Force as you die? If so, doesn't that negate the possibility that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi and the Emperor is a powerful Sith, despite both being old? How do midi-chlorians get into the body in the first place?

    These questions have been asked ad infinitum since 1999, and appear to have no answer coming any time soon. Unfortunately, I think this is just a bit of symbology that Lucas introduced and we just have to accept. They work well as a microcosmic representation of the value of symbiosis, and they satisfy Lucas' ongoing fascination with Flash Gordon "science as Magic", but they present a puzzle as maddening as trying to understand what makes the One Ring work in LOTR.

    And maybe that's just the point.


     
  25. ZebulaNebula

    ZebulaNebula Jedi Master star 5

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    Feb 10, 2005
    I believe that midichlorians do reproduce, but their abundance is limited by intracellular factors partially controlled hereditarily. Losing body parts instantly lowers the total number of Midichlorians in a person's body. It stays low because the potential space is permanently lost. Force sensitivity correlates almost perfectly with the total number of midichlorians in one's Entire body.
     
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