Heroes and Villains: A Discussion

Well, I'm incredibly bored and not quite ready to go to bed. I've been discussing the idea for this thread with my friend, OWLC, and we decided it didn't belong in the EU Debate. I also decided it didn't belong in Lit. So, I'll try it here. DarthAttorney, if this isn't good then feel free to lock it.

Here's the scoop. I'm curious about whether you like heroes or villains more in the Star Wars story, and why. Note that this ISN'T necessarily a discussion on which one you can identify with more, although I'm sure it will come up in a lot of people's explanations. I just want to know your honest opinion. You won't be judged on your answer and no answer is a bad answer. I just want to hear it.

I'm a fan of the anti-hero myself. I like a character who is far from perfect and knows it, for the most part. Characters like Ulic Qel-Droma and Kyp Durron come to mind. Something about these guys, especially in the aftermath of the devastation they caused, really made them stand out as a character. The regret shown in "Redemption" for Ulic and "Simple Tricks" for Kyp just appealed to me and made me more sympathetic towards the character than I'd be toward any run-of-the-mill good guy. I'd like to think that I'd have a harder time feeling sympathy for a real person like Ulic or Kyp, because there's a difference between a real murderer and a fake one. But for now I can just enjoy these characters for what they are: Different.

As for relating to me, I'll just mention that I haven't always been "normal". I'm more inclined to gravitate toward outcasts instead of those who are accepted. That might explain things a little.

Ok, now it's your turn, if DA allows it.

Jae Angel

 

I figured NJ there put out my name so I should go ahead and put in my 2 cents( ok ok maybe 3 or 4 cents)

When it comes to heros or villians I do not know if I have every truly prefered one over the other. When I first saw the original movie way back when I of course liked Luke Skywalker (we share a name which pretty much doomed me). But ever since that time I have picked out characters good and bad which I have liked. I was always partial to Jabba. The fact that this gelatinous mass of adipose tissue (thats fat for those who are not medical majors, sorry school starts again on monday i am warming up) was a huge criminal mastermind who also was smart enough to put Carrie Fisher in a gold bikink (kidding kidding), seriously he has a depth which you get to see in the books and also a ruthlessness you see in some of the comics. Then there are minor characters good and bad who jump out at me. Ooryl jumped out at me when I first read the X-wing novels. The oily nature we get from Zinj, there are times you almost feel like you need a shower after seeing the man talk. I think I like both, its just a matter of if the character grabs a hold of me. Ok so maybe i gave 5 cents.

OWLC

 

I'm mostly with NJ. I can't exactly relate to Kyp, who is my favorite character, but I wish that I would end up like him, if my life took a similar course of events. (I probably wouldn't be able to deal with the guilt). I do offer, however, that sympathysing with characters in books is easier for me for 3 reasons: 1) character's reasons are often much more logical than real people's. Perhaps this is because you don't know what thoughts would be unless you'd done it, and most writers haven't, hence logic. 2) we know what they're thinking. We know why they're doing everything they are doing, and they can't lie in their thoughts, at least not easily. 3) little things like mind control...
I feel that Kyp's, Zekk's (in YJK), and to a certain extent, Jaina's, characters are the most believable. They don't take everything with a stoic attitude. They aren't perfect. They don't agree with everyone, and they are quite willing to argue. They do what they feel is write, and son't care what others think. They are my heros, regardless of what they are called or thought of by other characters.
If I can't have the both (as in Kyp) I don't have much of a preference. For me to like a character, they can't be pure good or pure evil, so I guess I dislike them both, although characters I do like are more often seen as villains.
(sorry if I'm incoherent... I have a tendency to ramble and it's 2 am)

 

With me, it's totally undecided. My list of favorite characters includes heroes (e.g. Luke and Leia), villains/Imperials (e.g. Isard & Thrawn), and those who changed sides (Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, Mara Jade, Gara/Lara/Kirney). I also like to read about the Yuuzhan Vong (that exotic biotechnology stuff is interesting to me), though I wouldn't go so far as to say that I like them - they're not exactly cuddly. *hehe*

 

..i'm apparently a fan of heroes who are almost insanely brave (and a little cocky), and thus are destined to die..

In the NJO, i'd have to say that my favourite characters in the ENTIRE run of the series have been:

#1 Wurth Skidder
#2 Ganner Rhysode
#3 Anakin Solo


If you go based on this logic, then i figure that, at some point down the line:


Kyp has to die

Traest Kre'fey has to die(though he seemed INSANELY out of character in DW!)

Nom Anor has to die (not really heroic, but i like him, thus he's melba toast)

Gavin has to die.

 

Villains have always been far more interesting to me because I like trying to see in their heads/ culture/ etc and understand what makes them click. The more I get to know them, the more I feel sorry for them knowing in the end, those goodie two shoes are going to win. I never really cared much for heroes. I guess the main reason is I feel they have a big enough fan base that villains deserve some attention. That and I can?t stand most of the hero attitudes ( a Paladin-esque type). Hearing or reading about "vanquishing the evil that lurks in holes" and "doing all in the name of good" gets on my nerves. If I like any type of hero, it would be the "dark hero". Vampire Hunter D is a good example. The hero torn and constantly at war with himself.

And of course, liking villains one must include the stereotypical answer: They have cooler weapons, fortresses, vehicles, clothes, etc.

 

Ah yes, I also love villains for the same reasons you put down, Tam. I especially like the really crazy type of villains. Hannibal Lecter is one of my all-time favorites. I also like the villains who are that way because of something in their past. It's fun if it's a mystery and in the end you finally figure it out.

There are some types of heroes I can't stand:

-The goody-two-shoes kind of hero
-The anti-hero who has an entire fan base that insists that he/she is perfect in every way.
-The "Mr. Morality" type of hero. You can just hear the author preaching. Disgusting.

Other heroes I like. I'm just not partial to them. They're great, because they're what makes it fantasy, along with the super-evil genius villain. However, very few if any people are like that.

Jae Angel

 

Heroes or Villians eh? Im not partial to either, a hero is always good. But a little evilness never killed yea.... well maybe it has. Some of my favourite characters are Han Solo (Of course), Jaina Solo, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, Maul, and most of the Yuuzan Vong. As some one else said before the bioengineering is intresting, and has got me thinking what if we used bioengineering instead of machines, but thats a whole 'noter discussion that I won't get into. So I really don't perfer Heroes over Villians or Villians over Heroes, they are both good, and awesome.

PS Kyp should die soon.

 

I find it interesting that so many say Kyp should die soon. Is this because you don't like him or because he should die because of the the type of character he is? Like he's destined to die for some sort of fulfilling purpose? Maybe to finally complete his sacrifice?

I personally think an even bigger sacrifice for Kyp would be a long life of servitude with the jedi. This debate was touched upon in the short story, Simple Tricks, where Kyp wished himself dead and Fen told him it was the coward's way out.

Sooooo, I guess only those who wish to end Kyp's suffering would want him dead. I'm a sadist like that.

Jae Angel

 

Nice thread Narundi

I'll post more soon but I think everyone should contribute something to this if they can, it's good goop baby!

 

I like the flawed hero. Kyp for instance is a favourite of mine, he has to be a Jedi hero with the knowledge everyone thinks of him as a killer in the Vader style. A pity early NJO presents us with a Kyp that we don't know

 

Like most here I prefer the anti-hero to the classic, definitive hero we've been used to, in SW and other literature. I think its because of these peoples flaws that the average man or woman can easily relate, because it is what makes us all human and is the one common denominator that all on planet Earth share.


Ive gtg but Ill come back tomorrow and post a more in depth message.

 

I like people like Wedge, Corran, and many of the other pilots.
They put their lives on the line, more than most others, and they dont have Force powers (with the exception of Corran) to rely on.
They've put their entire lives into something they believe in. They do what they have to do, but not at the cost of what they believe in.

I also like Corran because he was a cop, and I have an incredible amount of respect for police officers.

 

I think my favorite type of hero is one like Wes Janson. He has accomplishment upon accomplishment in the Rebellion and the New Republic and is a person of high moral character, but that's not the persona he regularly portrays.

Most of the time, he's like a 8 year old on Ritalin or something, to the annoyance of his friends and copilots. But when trouble comes he's able to revert into ass-kicking mode, and at times like that there is probably no one else that Wedge, Tycho, and co. would rather have at their side than Janson.

There's just something about the comparsion of what Janson is like on and off the battlefield that I really love and I think it makes for a very interesting (and funny) hero.

 

While the heroes and good-aligned anti-heroes are all interesting in their own right, the characters I prefer are the villains. And by villains I mean the truly vile ones, those who will do anything they can to achieve their own ends. For me, I'd say I prefer Palpatine, Darth Vader (when he was evil), Nom Anor, Thrawn, Exar Kun, the Sith in general, and Ysanne Isard. I like them because they refuse to accept defeat, and won't be beaten by anything except death. (And then, it's still a maybe). Palpatine was the embodiment of evil in almost every aspect, and as such I found him to be one of the most interesting characters ever. His willingness to exterminate anything that got in his way, friend or foe, truly made him ruthless. Vader was every bit as cold-hearted as Palpatine, killing anyone on a whim if they so much as looked at him funny. Nom Anor I am partial to because of his devious sneakyness. He's survived this long in the NJO because of his own cunning, his own skill at manipulating others. The Sith, I like them for the obvious reasons, and some of them won't even be stopped by death. Thrawn was the "calculating evil," the one who thought of everything and triple-guessed his opponent on everything. The reason I keep him with the evil ones is because of just how badly he crushed his enemy. Isard, though she plunged into insanity, was also a great villain. She displayed many Palpatine-esque tendencies, from leaving a plagued planet in the hands of the Alliance to destroying an entire planetary colony just because they dared accept stolen Bacta.

Just my (significantly more than) 2 cents.

 

I'd have to agree with Devi. If you couldn't tell, one of my favorites is Ysanne, but I'm also a huge pilot fan. I think they just appeal to different sides or aspects of my personality, which is why I like both heroes and villans.

 

Wow, great to see people actually responding to this!

I'd like to bring up a new question in here. Standmaiden and I were discussing it in the Prancing Bantha.

Why is it that people like Mara but not Kyp? Are they really that different? Is it because of the way their respective creators portrayed them? Note that I'm shooting more for a discussion on authors and the way they portray characters. We already have wonderful threads about defending Kyp and Mara's motives. I'd rather talk about other, newer aspects, if we could. Don't want to beat a dead horse.

I happen to think that KJA sorta pulled out all the stops when creating Kyp. He didn't really try and get anybody to sympathize with Kyp. The kid did wrong, and it showed later on that he definitely knew it. I don't know what Stackpole was trying to do, but I digress. I kinda got the feeling that Zahn was trying to make it so nobody would have a real reason to hate Mara with all those Emperor's Hand comics. His best portrayal of her, in my opinion, was in the very beginning. She wasn't the nicest, but she didn't need to be. I don't understand why we even need to like characters who are nice. Why can't we like total arses just as much as those who are saints? Can somebody explain that?

I told Standmaiden that the only reason why I don't like a character is if they're annoying. Annoying doesn't have to come from being an arse. It mostly comes from author portrayal, at least for me. Take how Jaina has been portrayed in past books. I'd like for her to be a little consistent with things. The authors make her inconsistent. That annoys me. Therefore, I don't like her anymore until she stops being annoying to read.

Ok, that's enough to put on people's plates, methinks.

Jae Angel

 

Come on, somebody MUST have an opinion!

Jae Angel

 

Why is it that people like Mara but not Kyp? Are they really that different?

Well, I have a longer reply in stow... but I kinda turn the question around in there (you will see), so I give you my (short) answer to the original question first:

I think it has to do with the plot of the (first few books of) the NJO. There was an emphasis on this rift between "Luke and his faction" and "Kyp and his faction", with Luke being portrayed as the good/sane one, and Kyp being portrayed as the "renegade" who's in danger of falling to the Dark Side (again) and dragging others with him. The readers were meant to side with Luke, that's how the books were written.

Plus, us Luke-fans tend to be very loyal to our Farmboy anyhow, so if someone comes up and antagonizes him (like Kyp did), he's automatically perceived as "the enemy" - well, maybe not "enemy", but he isn't very much liked. Mara was/is on Luke's side (well, she's his wife), so she was perceived as "one of good ones", just like Corran, etc. That's one way of explaining it.

 

Whooo, now we get into the even trickier area of authorial intent. A device often debated in discussions on liberal humanism. For those of you who aren't familiar with the terms, liberal humanism deals with things called "universal truths" such as love, loyalty, hate, or betrayal. Stuff like that. The battle between good and evil is a dichotomy that many would say is universal but I'm not quite sure how it fits into liberal humanism. One thing is for sure: liberal humanism is the one type of critical theory that really tries to figure out what the author meant by a certain passage. You did a whole buttload of this type of writing in high school. You know what I mean. But I digress.

Now, imagine that I'm a Luke fan. I've always been one. So, visualize that I'm reading a book where Luke is portrayed as "right" along with Corran and Mara (you know Corran will be portrayed that way because it's a Stackpole book. Mara is just that way because it's continuity overflow from Zahn building her up to be so good after being so bad.) Now, imagine that someone comes along who is "bad". Imagine that you can freaking hear the megaphone in your ear saying "This guy is evil, he's a bad bad man, you should hate him and like the good guys like my Corran." THIS is where authorial intent backfires and I add Kyp to my list of favorite characters.

Us Luke fans don't like people insulting our Lukie boy, but we also have the power to spot author's favorites and author's favorities to hate and decide what we think based on that. I decided the opposite based on what I thought was a poorly disguised attempt at mud-slinging. Stackpole REALLY didn't like Kyp. Salvatore just made him cocky. Stackpole took it to the next level, and that's what made me really pay attention to Kyp.

I never really cared about Kyp until Stackpole made him out to be such an evil man. Go figure.

Jae Angel

 

I never really cared about Kyp until Stackpole made him out to be such an evil man.

I actually get your point, Narundi. Sometimes if you have the strong impression that a certain character is being unfairly portrayed as "the black sheep", it makes you like that character more, out of solidarity. Just like in the HP books, since everything is told from Harry's POV, Snape gets described with ample negative bias (as "cruel", "nasty", etc.), but that makes at least some fans go "poor misunderstood Snapey, gotta solidarize with him!" (more thoughts on the similarities (and differences) between Mara, Snape, and Kyp to follow!).

 

Actually, I'm a huge Snape fan, but that's because I see how much potential he has for a dark past and secrets. That alone sets him aside from Kyp and Mara. We already know a lot about their pasts before we know their future. Snape is sort of a puzzle that still has yet to be solved. I'm hoping desperately that OotP will shed some light on the nasty, dirty character that is Snape.

Jae Angel

 

Yeah, Snape is a very, very interesting mystery (IMHO). - So here is the long post I said I had in stow...

Why is it that people like Mara but not Kyp? Are they really that different?

Good starting point for a discussion, actually. I asked myself the same, only that I wondered, "Why do (some) people like Kyp, but not Mara?" (I mean the fans, not ppl. "in universe".) (I beg your pardon in advance for "turning your question around", Narundi.)

I had a few thoughts on this when I pondered about how Mara and Snape (the HP character) are a lot alike. Both have a dark past (as an Emperor's Hand and a Death Eater respectively), and both are on the side of good now, but although they are good people, they aren't nice people in the usual sense of the word (I'm not saying this to diss them, I like them both a lot), but are sarcastic, somewhat nasty (Snape's "nasty smile" is frequently mentioned in the books), etc. They embody the interesting (IMHO) concept that you can be a good person without being a nice person. And Kyp kinda fits that concept, too, doesn't he? He has the dark past (he was on the Dark Side in the JAT), and (like NarundiJedi observed) the authors didn't go out of their way to portray him as "likable". But, even though you could say he's skirting close to the Dark Side at some points in the NJO (I'm thinking of this "manipulating Jaina (to destroy the worldship)" thing in particular), he isn't bad/evil. (So if you look at it from that angle, Mara and Kyp aren't really that different.)

So how come that Mara is strongly hated by some people (including some Kyp fans!), but Snape doesn't attract the same amount of negative sentiments? (Well, at least as far as I know. But then, I'm far more familiar with the SW fandom than I am with the HP fandom.) So I was thinking about the difference in how they are portrayed in the books; and a key difference is that although Snape is very popular with the fans (especially us female fans, hehe), he is disliked by (almost) everyone but his Slytherins "in universe". Harry never even thanked him for saving his life, what to speak of reassessing his opinion of him. Dumbledore trusts him (I think), but probably also expects him to prove his loyalty. He isn't given trust/sympathy "just like that".

Now with Mara in the NJO, she is - well, "universally liked" would be exaggerated, but she's liked/loved by the main characters (the Skywalkers and Solos), and her dark (Emperor's Hand) past is never made an issue of. Her being a Jedi, even a Jedi Master, and part of the NR and the Skywalker/Solo clan is accepted ("in universe") as if it was the most normal thing in the world. (I'm talking about the NJO-era here, not the Bantam era.) And I think this is part of what sparked the Mara-dislike in some people. One of the things you most often hear from Mara-haters is this "she's a Mary Sue", isn't it? And it is often said that what makes a character a "Mary Sue" lies not so much in what she's like, but in how the other characters relate to her (namely, the "everbody likes/admires her" syndrom). Okay, (like I said), not everybody likes Mara, but the "key players" (Skywalker/Solo clan) do, and to an amount that (IMHO) goes beyond what would be realistic, considering a) that even though Mara does have her good (=making her likable) qualities, such as loyalty and generally being the kind of person you would like to have at your side when your in a tight spot, she is not exactly what you would consider a "nice" person (as said above), being sharp-tongued, hot-tempered, etc. b) her "dark"/Imperial past - okay, it's plausible that our NR heroes learned to trust her over time (especially considering that she has been on the side of the NR for years), and were able to forgive her for whatever she did in Palpy's service (though I don't know whether they even know the details of what she did - another issue that the pro authors failed to address); but that they treat her as "a full member of the club" (so to speak), even a much-appreciated me

 

Wow, I never thought I'd agree with pretty much everything a Mara fan has to say in an extremely long post! You've made me think about a whole lot of those issues. I agree that Mara being treated as a little more of a black sheep might make things better. I don't care what she or Kyp did in the past. I don't care what she looks like, or what Leia looks like. I don't personally understand why they can't lengthen the stupid NJO books to include more of everybody in situations that don't seem rushed or forced. I think the problem is the books, and the way they're planned, not so much the characters.

The one thing that I wanted to add to the list of why some people might like Kyp but not Mara: Kevin J Anderson wrote the JAT. And he wrote Leviathan. And he wrote Darksaber, which I see as sort of a continuation of the JAT in and of itself. I think that after that his other Star Wars books were pretty much void of Kyp. Save a small appearance of Kyp in the YJK where he did almost nothing except give advice on what not to do.
What I don't like about Mara, what makes her sorta annoying, has much to do with her creator. How many Star Wars books has Zahn written? How many of them have Mara in them? You can add that to the list of why Mara might be seen as a Mary Sue. I don't personally believe in Mary Sues after giving it much thought. I call that character "annoying" instead, because I think a lot of people throw that term around loosely for anything they don't like. To me Mara is annoying because I think Zahn uses her as a crutch. She's an author's pet, and he can't write others without her. So what does he do? It's only natural that he'd make her a part of the family. I don't know. That's just my take on it. All we have to go on are the author's words on paper. That's what I got from the "evidence".

Jae Angel

ED: It's interesting. I was just looking over Kevin J Anderson's "Redemption", the last Tales of the Jedi story. In it you have Sylvar talking about Ulic Qel-Droma walking around free as a war criminal unpunished. You have to wonder if any of Anderson's writing in this series reflects his views on Kyp and what should happen to him. If you haven't read Tales of the Jedi, I suggest you do, btw.

 

what is the question? why some people like Mara over Kyp?



1) Kyp almost killed Luke (Yes, he was under the influence of a sith lord, but even Mara was and she broke free of that!)


2) He's ANNOYING. Like some people find Mara annoying, I find KYP annoying. He should act his age.


3) I don't like KJA characters at all. I think Kyp was created as a 2nd Luke sort of......Han befriended the kid, etc.....



4) If he didn't flirt with someone more than half his age, maybe he wouldn't be so annoying.