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FF:QLD "Heroes"

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by Magnus_Darcrider, Nov 22, 2006.

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  1. Grieyls

    Grieyls Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2000
    Well I read it all and I'm still confused :p
     
  2. Magnus_Darcrider

    Magnus_Darcrider Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Wow, that was good. And this is coming from a man who had to stop Terminator 3 to have a three hour conversation and draw diagrams about how time travel functioned in that universe before we could continue to watch and enjoy the movie...

    How many beers did this take you? :p

    Anyway, my own comments:

    If anyone other than Magnus is actually reading this and I'm losing you

    I nearly choked on my food when I read that!

    It might be completely identical, but it's still a different universe in practice. (This is the explanation for the "two Hiros" problem. Perhaps the universe makes sure that when travel back in time then forward again, it's impossible to arrive in such a situation. If nothing else, it would save on embarrassment.)

    From a mechanics viewpoint, practical, but you think about it too much and the average person?s brain melts. The best option was your first one: you leap forward into the future from ?Line A?. Line A continues without you as you've ?vanished?. Your best bet is to return slightly after you initially leapt out, to resecure your place in the timeline.

    The other problem here is that you?re relying on a system where everything has to affect the course of the timeline, what if there are just ?Big Moments?? ?Angel? ran along a similar system; sure you could see movie A instead of movie B, decide to eat a hamburger instead of a kebab, but the Big Moments, those are the ones that can change everything. Consequently, Nathan winning the election and the detonation in New York are two examples of "Big Moments". These are the underpinnings of the entire timeline. To be fair, we've already seen what happens when you change a "Big Moment"; Claire's survival. With her dead, we have TIMELINE #1. With her alive, the timeline's "Big Moments" have been altered ever so slightly, but enough to cause some serious fracking ramifications.

    As an aside, a friend of mine hates that theory, as it presupposes the importance of humanity when the Space-Time Continuum is bigger than that. True, but we?re the only intelligences (we?re aware of) observing it, so humanity is a big deal.

    Real world example: ever watch ?Hitler: Rise of Evil?? It shows that history just stood aside, and let Hitler through. Personally, it gave me the hint that even if someone had gacked Hitler early on, that period in our recent history still would have happened, but with someone else at the reins.

    Something to think about. But, back to the fun stuff.

    I'd initially hoped that changing history was impossible in Heroes (in what I call a "Prisoner of Azkaban model," since that story portrayed a closed time loop where nothing changed perfectly)

    Sweet Merciful Buddha, the Prisoner of Azkaban Time Travel Model... To wrap my dad?s head around that model required us to side step the issue entirely and just say ?wizard did it?, as the paradoxical nature of travelling back in time to ensure things happened bugged him profusely.

    The audience weeps (the males somewhat more than the females, because she was adorable and more than a little easy on the eyes

    Very true, but it was really more about the accent for me... Moving on...

    Charlie's photo changes to include Hiro. (BIG HONKIN' PROBLEM. Now, Ando doesn't SEE it change, or acknowledge, so far as I can remember, that it's changed. Frankly, Ando is where the problem with this whole mess lies. If he wasn't there, this would be pretty easy to reconcile.)

    Okay, so history changes.


    Actually, Ando DOES notice, its how he knows Hiro actually managed to survive the leap back. He then asks one of the waitresses about the picture, who then talks about Hiro briefly and that he vanished a couple of weeks ago yet by our observation she just saw him in the diner!

    The BIG problem here is how can Ando detect changes to the timeline and remain unaffected by them himself?? When its obvious that the Space-Time continuum has taken a major shift around him, loca
     
  3. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    How many beers did this take you?

    Zero, as there's none in the house and cash is tight this week to the point that I can't really justify buying any more till next Wednesday, but if it had been here, well, it would have been a bigger number than zero. :p I was going a bit loopy by the end there. :p


    With regards to Big Moments, and my unfortunate quantum mechanics tangent, yeah, you're right. From a completely realistic standpoint, you have to take into account quantum uncertainty and chaos theory (a butterfly flaps its wings over Tokyo, an atomic bomb explodes in New York), but that just confuses people, and even I was having difficulty in not falling off my train of thought and getting pulled under the wheels. Besides, when you're dealing with fictional time travel, narrative has be a force inherant in it. It doesn't have to be Discworldian in its extent, but it's there, underpinning everything, and you have to at least acknowledge it. Narrative is why Hiro showed up in New York, not some piece of dirt in the middle of nowhere.

    The Hitler example is a very good one. Obviously that's the reason why things play out so similarly over the month and a half during which season 1 takes place, no matter what changes occur. 3 different timelines, 0, 1 and 2, all end with the bomb going off, and at least 1 and 2 have identical futures. I got too burried in my tangent, but in my defense, I was trying to think in the most realistic way possible, and the fact that I kept coming to a future with 2 Hiros in it was spinning me out. I think I solved that one, but it took some mental gymnastics. :p


    Heh, wizard did it. I don't see what's so hard to get about the Azkaban stuff. Honestly, I think the movie did an even better job than the book of showing how the cause and effect worked, and showing that history never changed at any point. Then again, I do get the feeling that I'm better than most people at wrapping my head around this stuff.


    Very true, but it was really more about the accent for me

    Yeah, that fell under the "adorable" umbrella.


    Okay okay okay okay... Ando. Argh. I didn't gone back and rewatch any episodes to do this, and myabe I should have. The question is: Does Ando explicitly acknowledge that the photo is DIFFERENT to how he saw it previously. My fuzzy memory tells me that he doesn't, in which case it's actually Ando 2 who spots it and is relieved that his version of Hiro made it. It of course isn't his version of Hiro, but that's neither here nor there. Tell me if I'm wrong about that one.

    Yeah, the whole theory requires making a lot of assumptions, but as you say, even if Charlie does do the Time Traveler's Wife thing, there's still the rest of the staff. As I said, the only way I can reconcile it without amnesia or uncomfortable theorising about Ando jumping timelines is to say we had to cut from timeline 1 to timeline 2 prior to the bit with the photo. And the only way to make sense of that is to assume that Hiro went into the past to save Charlie in that timeline as well. It's quite elegant in a strange, head-spinning kind of way. I don't like inventing whole scenes we never saw like that, but it's the only way.



    The way I saw it, Hiro managed to ?rewind? only Hope?s localised timefield rather than everywhere in his perception. The other guy was already charging at her when she fired at Hiro, Hiro merely rewound her so she hadn?t fired yet, allowing the guy to slam into her and make sure she didn?t actually fire her gun. Of course, I could be remembering it wrong, but that scene did stick out at me.

    That's a possibility. I don't like it so much because it gives Hiro yet another insanely powerful ability, but there's no other evidence for or against it. I prefer the idea that the guy was literally a split second from tackling her, and would have hit her just as the bullet left the gun, but that Hiro wound himself and Ando back just far enough that quantum uncertainty slipped them into a timeli
     
  4. Lozza

    Lozza Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Meh, the only point you lads didn't manage to touch on is the one present - multiple pasts, multiple futures.
    Which would actually explain why the bomb still happens and why Charlie still dies.
    It's one of the more basic extentions of quantum physics.

    Take the Heisenburg Principle. For those of you who don't know or don't remember, it reads something along the line of - the more certain you are about the location of a particle in space and time, the less certain you can be about the momentum of that particle (at that location in space and time). The reverse also applies.

    So take a single point in time, and while you can see that a particle is there, you CANNOT know how it got to be there, or where it will go when time speeds up to normal. There are any potential number of combinations that would lead to that particle being where you know it to be, at that certain point in time.

    So let's take something that's just a little larger than the "average particle". An infinite number of pasts have the potential to lead up to a single point in the present. Like the bomb.

    Take two cones and stick them together at the point, and you have the interaction of the past and future, at the single point we call the present. The further you get away from the moment of time you are observing, Heisenburg and statistics state - the more likely ANY event occurring becomes, and the less certain you can be about a CERTAIN event occurring becomes. Put simply - the further you look into the future, the more likely it is that it might be weird and wonderful, but the moon won't turn to swiss cheese tomorrow. Maybe in several eons, but not tomorrow.

    So how does all this effect Hiro??? Good question.
    As the boys have already said, Hiro seems to be able to treat time as a 2 dimensional entity. A piece of string he can travel along at will. But we have to remember that he is travelling from HIS present. However, when he jumps back in time - to what "appears to be his time line" (maybe the only difference is that the trashman didn't come) the moment he jumps into becomes his new present. When he jumps back to the future he can only jump to a possible/probable future from the point of time in which he left. So Hiro is basically jumping between strings rather than travelling back and forward along a single one ;)

    As for paradox, in theory this could only happen if Hiro somehow managed to cause himself to be propelled into a future or past that was not a possibility (or perhaps a certain probability) from his point of present. So in theory this just couldn't happen.
     
  5. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    So let me see if I'm following you here... Hiro is able to jump into a past that might not be exactly the same as what he remembers. I basically had the whole light-cone thing going on for multiple futures, but multiple pasts... I need read A Brief History of Time again, I think.

    I see what you're getting at, though. If Hiro makes short jumps through time, the destination will be predictable. The larger the jump, the more likely something insane is going to happen. Perhaps that's the mechanism whereby there's only one Future Hiro in the changed, Living-Claire future. Hiro predicted a future in which he would not have a doppelganger, and because 5 years is a relatively short jump compared to what he's theoretically capable of, he arrived in a future where his alternate self had already departed, presumably to the past, to go, I dunno, kill Linderman or something. This departure is logical and probable, because the future is bad, and Hiro is always going to want to go back and change it. And for jumps to the past, Hiro had to build his timeline, so he knew precisely what had happened leading up to things, so he had a very clear picture of where and when he needed to be, and what was happening there. If he'd made a blind jump, things could really have gotten messed up. Perhaps that's what he means when he says he's risking a rift, he means rocking the boat, ending up in a timeline that's way out of whack with the established scenario. Hmm.

    As for jumping strings, that's what I was getting at with my Charlie scenario. Hiro 1 ends up in Ando 2's timeline, and Hiro 2 ends up... well, I've got no idea. Perhaps Hiro 2 does save Charlie, ending up in a timeline 3, which, unlike timelines 1 and 2, which are very similar, has some major measurable differences.

    It's the problem with changing history. If you want to get technical about it, it's impossible to save your own universe, only someone else's. But since that universe then becomes yours, until you time travel next, I guess you've just got to sort of live with it and try not to think about it too much. :p
     
  6. Magnus_Darcrider

    Magnus_Darcrider Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Okay okay okay okay... Ando. Argh. I didn't gone back and rewatch any episodes to do this, and myabe I should have. The question is: Does Ando explicitly acknowledge that the photo is DIFFERENT to how he saw it previously. My fuzzy memory tells me that he doesn't, in which case it's actually Ando 2 who spots it and is relieved that his version of Hiro made it. It of course isn't his version of Hiro, but that's neither here nor there. Tell me if I'm wrong about that one.

    Ando sees Hiro in the photo with Charlie about halfway though ?Homecoming?, and immediately pulls it off the wall adnd asks a waitress about it, and she gives us the new version of events, in summary.

    So yeah, Ando?s still only aware of the old timeline. Now why he?s immune to shifts in the time field could be cos of his proximity to Hiro when he leapt, but more likely it could be ?you?re only aware of changes if you could know.?

    For example, FutureHiro tried to save Claire Bennett by leaping back and giving Peter Petrelli the message. He succeeded, but he wasn?t aware that he?d succeeded, because how would he know? He wasn?t monitoring Claire 24/7.

    Whatever principle governs the timeline (and I?m more inclined than ever to go with the ?Big Moments? principle, despite the fact it spits in the face of every Quantum Physicist on the planet) it seems that whenever the timeline is altered, it makes as few changes as possible to the whole new timeline. Consequently, memories and the like won?t always pair up, and it does explain why Ando remembers the original timeline he came in on, but isn?t aware of the changes to it, thus cancelling out any problems we may have with ?immunity issues?.

    This of course means the timeline takes the simplest path to accommodating all the changes, but unless there?s an organising principle at work, it could mean some pretty horrible inconsistencies between people?s remembered experiences?

    That's a possibility. I don't like it so much because it gives Hiro yet another insanely powerful ability, but there's no other evidence for or against it. I prefer the idea that the guy was literally a split second from tackling her, and would have hit her just as the bullet left the gun, but that Hiro wound himself and Ando back just far enough that quantum uncertainty slipped them into a timeline where she got tackled a split second before firing. That just seems like a cleaner solution to me...

    I rewatched this scene again as well, and we?re both kinda wrong and kinda right; Hiro seems to rewind the bullet?s localised timefield but allowed it to keep it?s momentum; consequently the bullet slams back into the gun, knocking Hope?s hand aside, and then the guy tackles her.

    This means Hiro?s level of control could almost match Sylar?s, which I?ve discussed before and is scary.

    Thing was, it was a defence mechanism, instinctual. But it does indicate he?s a fairly powerful superhero.

    Which we already knew, but anyway.

    Meh, the only point you lads didn't manage to touch on is the one present - multiple pasts, multiple futures.
    Which would actually explain why the bomb still happens and why Charlie still dies.
    It's one of the more basic extentions of quantum physics.


    Well I?ve tried to shoehorn that into the ?Big Moments? Principle. I know BBN?s got a very good knowledge of mathematics and physics, but understand I?ve never studied quantum mechanics in any detail, and my mathematics acumen is appalling. I?m only a lawyer with an excellent knowledge of fictional time travel models :p

    Take the Heisenburg Principle. For those of you who don't know or don't remember, it reads something along the line of - the more certain you are about the location of a particle in space and time, the less certain you can be about the momentum of that particle (at that location in space and time). The reverse also applies.

    I?m more familiar with the Uncertainly Principle (same thing, different nomenclature) and
     
  7. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Ando sees Hiro in the photo with Charlie about halfway though ?Homecoming?, and immediately pulls it off the wall adnd asks a waitress about it, and she gives us the new version of events, in summary.

    So yeah, Ando?s still only aware of the old timeline. Now why he?s immune to shifts in the time field could be cos of his proximity to Hiro when he leapt, but more likely it could be ?you?re only aware of changes if you could know.?



    No no no. Either you're misunderstaning me, or I'm misunderstanding you. Is there anything that explicitly sinks the theory that we, as the viewers, cut from one timeline to the other during the course of the episode? Does Ando give any impression that he is Ando 1, rather than Ando 2? Frak it, I'm rewatching these 2 damn episodes when I get home, because this is doing my head in. :p

    If my theory's wrong, then yeah, it has to be what you say about proximity to Hiro resulting in some kind of Back To The Future-esque "ripple effect" for people like Ando. Which I don't personally like in this context, but if it's the only possibility, it's the only possibility.


    I know BBN?s got a very good knowledge of mathematics and physics, but understand I?ve never studied quantum mechanics in any detail, and my mathematics acumen is appalling. I?m only a lawyer with an excellent knowledge of fictional time travel models

    I'm self-taught. Loz is actually the one to listen to, as she's actually studied some of this stuff. :p I've just read a dash of Hawking and gotten in too many debates about TV show continuity. :p


    As for Hiro's loss of powers after Charlie, I'm more inclined to just chalk that up to emotional trauma and uncertainty and lack of faith in himself. That's hardly unprecedented in the superhero arena. And I like the thought that maybe Future Hiro didn't have the Charlie experience, or experienced it differently. Heck, maybe Charlie's death is a nexus point for Hiro and the development of his powers. Maybe Future Hiro is 'Hiro 2', and was able to save her. Maybe that caused his confidence and powers to bloom earlier, and gave him the confidence to attempt going back to warn Peter. (That's just a wild theory, but anything's possible. We can probably speculate pretty safely that Charlie's life or death wouldn't have had much, if any effect on events relating to the bomb. Hence, it's perfectly plausible that a post-apocalyptic future could exist where Charlie had been saved, and was either still alive, had died in the blast, or had been rounded up by El Presidente.)


    And yep, that was exactly the conclusion I came to with Isaac, and it freaked me out. For some reason, I'd never considered the quantum effects of prophecy before. A seer sees a probable but completely random future, and in the act of observing it, makes it impossible for that event not to occur.

    Though what we can't forget there is that there IS one painting of Isaac's (more than one, actually) that, if narrative conventions hold true, will NOT come true, which is the bomb. So if our Heroes manage to stop the explosion, free will is restored to the universe. :p Huzzah!



    one day before ?Judgment Day?

    Hm. Better marathon it, then. :p
     
  8. Lozza

    Lozza Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Since Hiro always jumps from his present (no matter what point of time (past/present/future)) he is in he could quite literally go anywhere if he were to "jump blind" like he did when he arrive in NY 5 weeks after he left Japan - nonetheless he got the destination right because of his intent. (Could he really just "jump blind" given that his ability requires focus?) In the case of his "5 year" jump backwards (returning) he only has HIS memories of the "future", so really is it any surprise that the bomb still happened in his "future" timeline? Certainly I've no doubt that it was probably one of the most plausible "paths" after he change the past, but of course that doesn't make it a certainty.

    Reality is relative :)

    So how can Isaac paint the future? I think he just paints the possibilities/probabilities. He rarely paints "outcomes". Claire, he never painted her death. Why? There certainly was the possiblity that she would die. Sure, he painted Nathan as president, but that could have been in 5 years time, gaining office in a landslide is Linderman's doing. The eclipse - high probability, science can predict these things. Peter and Symmone, high probability since he was nursing her father. Peter was bound to fly AT SOME STAGE. The bomb? Once again, no time placed on it. His paintings are warnings, though some like Linderman want to use them to help influence the path that history takes. Never underestimate the power of self-fulfilling prophecies.

    The only real outcome he paints is his own death and he was painting it just as Sylar shows up, when the future is the least mutable.

     
  9. Magnus_Darcrider

    Magnus_Darcrider Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2005
    No no no. Either you're misunderstaning me, or I'm misunderstanding you. Is there anything that explicitly sinks the theory that we, as the viewers, cut from one timeline to the other during the course of the episode? Does Ando give any impression that he is Ando 1, rather than Ando 2? Frak it, I'm rewatching these 2 damn episodes when I get home, because this is doing my head in.

    If my theory's wrong, then yeah, it has to be what you say about proximity to Hiro resulting in some kind of Back To The Future-esque "ripple effect" for people like Ando. Which I don't personally like in this context, but if it's the only possibility, it's the only possibility.


    Rewatch it, get back to us. I don't believe the theory's sunk, its just that Ando seems to acknowledge the change. However, i'd be a poor lawyer if I didn't note that Ando never explicitly states that the photo changed. He's just aware that Hiro's in a photo that he wasn't in and could not have been in previously.

    Ah, the Ripple Effect. Fond memories...

    So how can Isaac paint the future? I think he just paints the possibilities/probabilities. He rarely paints "outcomes". Claire, he never painted her death. Why? There certainly was the possiblity that she would die. Sure, he painted Nathan as president, but that could have been in 5 years time, gaining office in a landslide is Linderman's doing. The eclipse - high probability, science can predict these things. Peter and Symmone, high probability since he was nursing her father. Peter was bound to fly AT SOME STAGE. The bomb? Once again, no time placed on it. His paintings are warnings, though some like Linderman want to use them to help influence the path that history takes. Never underestimate the power of self-fulfilling prophecies.

    The only real outcome he paints is his own death and he was painting it just as Sylar shows up, when the future is the least mutable.


    To be fair, he painted the terrorist bombing in Israel three weeks before it happened, the train delrailment and fire outside Odessa, Texas (though no timeframe was given), and the death of the other cheerleader (a lot of fans always felt it was never Claire in that picture). These all happened without the interference of any of our protaganists. But your self-fulfilling prophecy statement is a good one; however I think it undersells Isaac somewhat.

    Then again, that is how prophecy typically works: cryptic statement, plug it into events; voila! Prophecy! :p


    Be seeing you,

    Magnus Darcrider
     
  10. Lozza

    Lozza Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 8, 2005
    It is the middle-east, bombings common occurrance, highly probably to happen, Isaac painted it. Train derailment... Well that is one I'm not to sure on and not afraid to admit it either :p My point was that the more times a single fact or even is to happen in the future, the more likely it becomes to happen - that's just statistics. The nature/atmosphere of the middle-east makes terrorists bombings likely. Cutting on repairs makes derailments likely. Isaac doesn't know this, he is just plugging into the mass of probabilities and picking the ones most likely to happen at some stage. Nathan was from a prominent family, he was ambitious, publically clean cut, doesn't that just scream presidential candidate be it 1 week, 1 year, 1 decade? Back to the dead cheerleader - I'm pretty sure she is fairly featureless, and at the time Isaac painted that hadn't Jacqui already taken credit for the heroics at the accident site?
     
  11. Kahlan72

    Kahlan72 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2000
    just :(

    *has to wait til tomorrow at least to see it!
     
  12. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    The idea of Isaac painting probilities is a tempting one, but every now and then he'll do something so prescient it's uncanny. Like Claire on the autopsy table. Or Hiro with the dinosaur. Or Future Hiro meeting Peter (which I believe we only ever saw as an entry on 'the strings', but I could be wrong). Or a half-invisble Peter beside a crushed cab. Or hell, a fully invisible Peter wandering around New York. Some of Isaac's paintings are just too specific to be random chance. Remember the blown-up bus matched the newspaper photo exactly, right down to the number.


    Magnus, have not yet had a chance to watch the episodes yet. May get time tonight, may not. Trust me, I will be getting back to you on it. It speaks way too much to my inherant geeky nature that I'm this excited to finally have a possible working solution to the Charlie Conundrum. :p
     
  13. Grieyls

    Grieyls Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2000
    Damn this spoiler blackouts! So tired of highlighting everything :p
     
  14. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    So tired of blacking everything out. :p Unfortunately our nerd-fest of a conversation has its underpinnings completely in the events of episode 20, so we don't want to spoil people.
     
  15. Grieyls

    Grieyls Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2000
    Quiet you :p
     
  16. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    Okay, so I skimmed the 2 episodes in question, Seven Minutes to Midnight and Homecoming. I unfortunately didn't have time to watch them fully, so I had to settle for focussing on the end of Seven Minutes, and the Ando scene in the middle of Homecoming. And as near as I can tell, my theory holds up. I'm going to rewatch Six Months Ago when I get the chance, but I feel otherwise vindicated. :p (Also, I'm not going to bother to black out this post, since it only deals with events from half a season ago, and it's a pain to highlight long posts like these when reading them.)

    There is no explicit evidence I can find that breaks my theory. In Seven Minutes To Midnight, there is, crucially, an ad break and several scenes between Hiro's disappearance and the dramatic zoom on the photo. This is where we jump from timeline 1 to timeline 2, where Ando 2 is fretting about the missing Hiro. Remember, the only difference in this timeline is that Charlie and the diner staff have known Hiro for 6 months. If anything, this probably makes it even more likely that Hiro will go back to save her, which is why Hiro 2 is also missing.

    In Homecoming, there is likewise nothing that breaks my theory. There's one or two lines of dialogue that are the tiniest bit awkward and which make you feel like you're not reading them quite as they were intended, but there's no deal-breaker, no explicit indication that Ando's perceptions have jumped from one string to the other. It can be read both ways. Basically, Ando is confused and worried, which works for basically any scenario. The things he says can easily be chalked up to confusion about what the crap is going on, and worry for Hiro overriding thoughts of any other kind of weirdness. Ando doesn't seem to have too good a grasp on temporal mechanics, bless him, so his general approach to all this seems to be to just ride it out. And he's certainly not going to waste Peter's time spinning a story about how a hurt and confused Charlie 2 seemed to know Hiro already. Heck, Ando might not have even picked up on it.

    So yeah, for my money, the riddle's solved. It's not the most easy-fitting solution/retcon ever, but it's logical and isn't contradicted by anything in the episodes in question.
     
  17. MarvinTheMartian

    MarvinTheMartian Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Seen 8 episodes today [face_peace] I'm into this ;)
     
  18. Kahlan72

    Kahlan72 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Not anything to add of any technical value. Saw 20 today and yeah..very cool!!!

    hated most of the future. Glad to be home.

    Could Claire have a shorter skirt??

    I'm so looking forward to Tuesday and seeing 21. Group viewing maybe??????? in the evening?

    IN my top 5 favourite tv shows I think
     
  19. GoobaFish

    GoobaFish Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 15, 2002
    "Hiro popped out of her life weeks ago." Says the Diner lady to Ando. He (H2) didn't just go back to save her.


    Really guys, if TPTB say "no alternate timelines/no Hiro 1/Hiro 2", you'll be even more bamboozled. I really wanted to get into the timeline and causality, but I am expecting to have my outlook on it made incorrect. I don't want you guys to get cheesed off if it really turns out to be a stupid explanation (a-la "well there's continuity errors" that Star Trek had happen to it, to name just one show). For example the whole Charlie stuff.

    I'm happy to wait for an explantion to come from the writers/in an episode. I'm really only saying this because you've gone to a lot of trouble and I really dont want yas pissed off by a poor explanation.
     
  20. Magnus_Darcrider

    Magnus_Darcrider Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2005
    We're fans. We're allowed to be pissed off if its a good explanation and we still don't like it :p

    Could Claire have a shorter skirt??

    I dunno; Sammich, you're the target demographic. Thoughts? :p

    Be seeing you,

    Magnus Darcrider
     
  21. BigBossNass1138

    BigBossNass1138 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2002
    "Hiro popped out of her life weeks ago." Says the Diner lady to Ando. He (H2) didn't just go back to save her.

    Yes he did. But because he changed history he ended up in a 3rd timeline.

    I won't be cheesed off if and when it's all explained as a continuity error. It IS a continuity error. It works as a narrative, but doesn't quite make logical sense unless you jump through a hoop or two first. I'm cool with that. I like jumping through hoops like this. I enjoy sitting down and thinking these things through, trying to figure out ways to make them work. It's what I do. It won't faze me if my solution is wrong. I'll come up with a new one, or I'll move on and continue enjoying the show. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.
     
  22. MarvinTheMartian

    MarvinTheMartian Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Seen all 20 eps in the past days. WOAH.
     
  23. Kahlan72

    Kahlan72 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2000
    I'm quite impressed Marv. That must've actually been almost cooler than the way we've watched it. Feel like you've had some special gift!

    Welcome to the club! :)
     
  24. Magnus_Darcrider

    Magnus_Darcrider Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Chapter 21 - "The Hard Part"

    Hiro and Ando leap back to the present, and with the help of Isaac's last legacy, the final pages of 9th Wonders, they set out to save the world.

    Problem is, the text is missing, so they go to Isaac's to ask him what will be said.

    Problem is, Sylar's there, playing with his new abilities. And frankly, he's freaked out that he's slated to destroy New York...

    Some interesting stuff in play here, Sylar doesn't want to blow up New York, because the regular people are "innocent". He only killed people who were undeserving of their gifts.

    A nice justification; explain Claire, Eden and Isaac to me again? Were they unworthy? [face_shame_on_you]

    Sylar's mother is a creepy little lady who doesn't really help Sylar get any more sympathetic; but she is the one who puts the idea of becoming President into his head. I'm not entirely sure how to feel about her scenes, but her storyline culminates in a grizzly painting that originally appeared in the screener pilot, but was removed from the aired one.

    Hiro gets his Scotty on and teleports Ando and himself to safety a couple of times in this episode. He unfortunately loses his chance to save the world by dispatching Sylar; by episode's end his sword is broken!

    Turns out that FutureHiro wasn't just playing a game of chess against his shadowy opponent Linderman; Angela Pratrelli shows she's quite the manipulator in this one too, reciting one of FutureHiro's key phrases back to Nathan instead of Peter.

    Does that mean she's prepared to kill Peter if necessary? That's a mind numbing thought...

    Turns out Linderman's been tracking D.L. and Niki/Jessica all their lives; can he track bloodlines? Micah also tries to get his Snake Plissken on and Escape from New York, but Candice proves to be a more than worthy guard. Still despise her though.

    Molly Walker's story is fully revealed finally (she's the moppet that Parkman saved way back in Chapter 2), turns out her ability is that she can track anyone in the world, but she has the same virus that killed Mohinder's sister. Guess what Mohinder's been hired to do?

    The episode ends with Team Schlub (Parkman, Ted Sprague & temporary member Mr. Bennett; where's Wireless when you need her?) meeting up with Peter and Claire in New York. Naturally, Peter starts to absorb Ted's power and starts to lose control as the episode ends...


    More! I need more, dammit!!

    Be seeing you,

    Magnus Darcrider
     
  25. Kahlan72

    Kahlan72 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2000
    Yes! MORE NEEDED!

    I'm heading to the airport to fly to the US to break into the tv studios to steal a copy of next week episodes!

    VERY VERY cool episode. I'm NEEDING this show almost as much as BSG.
    Send me long letters when I'm in rehab.
     
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