Hidden meanings and messages in Palpatine lines throughout the Saga

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by mandragora, Nov 12, 2005.

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  1. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    He only said that to further erase what's left of Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi. Palpatine knows that his appointing Anakin as personal representative of the Jedi Council would make the Jedi distrust him even more and they made that clear by denying Anakin the rank of Master. Once that happens, Anakin will hate the Jedi even more thus driving him closer to Palpatine's grip.

    Palpatine was not completely honest because he didn't explain why Dooku is still dangerous. Dooku lost both hands and is at Anakin's mercy so he's not a threat anymore but Palpatine still tells Anakin to kill him because he knows that Dooku is only dangerous to HIM. Palpatine didn't want Dooku exposing him as Darth Sidious, the very Sith Lord that he spoke of to the Jedi so he had him bumped off. When Mace Windu made that same quote about Palpatine, Anakin should not even compare that to what he did with Dooku because knows that Palpatine is dangerous to everyone...Padme, the Jedi, the Republic, and the galaxy at large but he didn't care because he thinks that Palpatine has the power to save Padme so Anakin helps him take out Mace.
  2. sith_rhino Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1
    Good point. Lucas himself says he is fascinated by how many times in history power is handed over, rather than taken. I think this is one of his points in the way that Palpatine took power.
  3. sith_rhino Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 9, 2007
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    Cryo, interesting comparison of the Eight-Fold Path aspects of the PT and OT Palpatine. I really do think, though, that the PT Palpatine was mostly a facade. He tried to appear to be those things because it helped him gain power. Once he finally becomes Emperor, there is no need to pretend anymore. Especially when the Emperor dissolves the Imperial Senate at the beginning of ANH, at that point he is accountable to no one, and can be the arrogant, evil jerk he really is.
  4. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
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    This is a good point. I realised that there are lines in the PT that support this:

    "But which was destroyed? The master or the apprentice?" -- Which of Palpatine's alter egos is already on his way out at the end of TPM? We know which . . .

    "No, no, no. You will die!" -- Sidious indicates that it's time for Palpatine to die and blasts himself free.
  5. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2000
    star 6
    [image=http://lotr.darthscreencapture.com/ROTK/D/32/image/samwise_301.jpg]

    Now THAT's what I call reaching!
  6. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    It acually looks like SAM is hanging off the edge there. [face_laugh]

    But you're correct: Sidious REACHES forward to blast Mace and take Palpatine out. [face_dancing]
  7. Master_Starwalker Manager Emeritus

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  8. mandragora Force Ghost

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    I think the real Palpatine (unlike the real Anakin) died when Palpatine became a Sith Master - which obviously was quite some time before TPM. I agree with Sith_Rhino that the PT Palpatine was a facade.

    Somewhere on the first pages of this thread we noted that Palpatine, when speaking about "we", is usually talking about both Palpatine and Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious, the real person, uses Palpatine like some kind of ventriloquist's dummy, and in that way is speaking to him.
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Just to clear up -- or attempt to clear up -- some loose ends:

    I'm still not sure about this part, but in the shooting draft of the script, Obi-Wan is meant to leave Anakin on Mustafar as he senses the Emperor's shuttle approaching. But this was changed during filming (allegedly, at Ewan McGregor's suggestion), so that the scene plays more ambiguously. However, the original conception indicates that the Emperor would have probably flown over the landing platform and detected Padme's unconscious body, thereby assuming Anakin had caused her harm. With this in mind, it isn't too much of a stretch that he tells Anakin that he killed her. There is still the issue of how he categorically knows, but there's less gap between the dots, so to speak.

    The key to this may lie in the third draft for the first movie, all the way back to 1975. This is what Obi-Wan tells Luke:

    What makes this confounding is that Obi-Wan and Sidious are on opposite sides of Luke and Anakin to where they should be. On the other hand (pardon the pun), they reach out with their right and left hands respectively, which is exactly in accordance with the 1975 description. I'm not sure whether I like the current situation or not: I like the idea of Obi-Wan and Sidious being embodiments of the "Light" and Dark Side and these literally being either side of the protagonists, but their positions are a complete inversion of this metaphor. However, if Obi-Wan and Sidious themselves have two sides, then the they're making conscious choices here to reach out with the "good" and "bad" aspects of their personalities respectively. Also: Rather than their mentors, Luke and Anakin themselves are in the place of the "good" and "bad", if that means anything at all.
  10. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4

    Cryogenic posted

    sith_rhino posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cryo, interesting comparison of the Eight-Fold Path aspects of the PT and OT Palpatine. I really do think, though, that the PT Palpatine was mostly a facade. He tried to appear to be those things because it helped him gain power. Once he finally becomes Emperor, there is no need to pretend anymore. Especially when the Emperor dissolves the Imperial Senate at the beginning of ANH, at that point he is accountable to no one, and can be the arrogant, evil jerk he really is.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    This is a good point. I realised that there are lines in the PT that support this:

    "But which was destroyed? The master or the apprentice?" -- Which of Palpatine's alter egos is already on his way out at the end of TPM? We know which . . .

    "No, no, no. You will die!" -- Sidious indicates that it's time for Palpatine to die and blasts himself free.



    This suggests that Palps was suffering from some form of dual personality, Cryo, which I don't think is supported very well with what we've seen in the movies. The congenial persona of Chancellor Palpatine, I believe, was only a mask for Sidious. A disguise for a truly monstrous person to hide behind.



    "No, no, no. You will die!" -- Sidious indicates that it's time for Palpatine to die and blasts himself free.



    :confused: Again I don't think this assumption is really supported by what the character is doing at the time. Zapping an enemy with force lightening. But I do agree that it is a watershed moment for the character, When he removes the mask of the gentleman-politician to let everyone see the monster for what he is. The moment Sids feels he no longer has to hide or lie or pander to his enemies-that all the peices are in place-and the Revenge of the Sith is finally at hand. That whole fight struck me as cathartic to him.

    Now that said, what I'd like to get your take on is Palps story about Darth Plageius?/>/>/>/>
  11. Cryogenic Force Ghost

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    Jul 20, 2005
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  12. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
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    Cryo posted

    Palpatine was not "suffering" from a dual personality and my analysis doesn't suggest that.



    Looking back at it, I think I may have misinterpreted what you said...sorry.


    However, he appears to be at his most balanced in TPM. We never see him egging the Jedi on to discover him or using his "Emperor" voice as Palpatine in TPM. but both of these things occur in AOTC and in ROTS. As for the latter dialogue: if it aids your thinking, look at it as Sidious willfully disposing of the mask of Palpatine.



    That's because most of the scenes we've seen Senator Palpatine in he had to establish himself as 'Mr. Nice Guy' to Padme'. This was to get her to trust him enough to propose that no confidence vote on Valorum at his suggestion. Furthermore Palps is the farthest away from political power that we see in the movies in TPM, and thus more vulnerable to discovery and having his grand plan foiled. He had to be more on his toes in TPM than he had to be for AOTC or ROTS. He had to be less threatening, and hide more thoroughly behind his disguise as 'Mr. Nice Guy'. I don't think it's an issue of balance for him. I think it was just an issue of necessity.

    Yet on the other hand. As he gets closer to achieving his plan to turn the Republic into his personal Empire and destroy the Jedi order with each movie in the PT...he does appear to become unhinged a bit especially in the fights between him and Mace and him and Yoda. Though I've always chalked it up to catharsis or reveling in his power and his freedom to use it.

    That's the trick in figuring Palpy out in the PT-you can never be 100% certain over what's real and what's a facade.


    Cryo posted

    I-poodoo posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now that said, what I'd like to get your take on is Palps story about Darth Plageius?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I've already given my thoughts on that. Start at the beginning and work your way through. This is a very good thread and you may pick up some extra nuggets along the way.



    :oops: />/>/>/>/>/>
  13. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Much as I agree on Obi-Wan not being the embodiment of light, I really don't think that Lucas is proceeding on the notion that there is a "good part" in Sidious' personality.

    In any case, these repeated references that ink Obi-Wan to Sidious are weird. I still don't entirely understand the point Lucas is making here. The emphasis on the mentoring role for Anakin and Luke, respectively, seems clear. But the "point of view"-part, especially in connection with frameing those scenes in the opera and in the Dagobah forest, still has me confused. Obi-Wan's ROTS quote that "only a Sith deals in absolutes" doesn't help clarify the situation.

    In both scenes, the mentor tells the protegé that "good is a point of view" and that many truths are are depending on our point of view. I'm positive that there is a difference, "good" vs. "the truth" - but I still don't quite understand what he's aiming at with this.

  14. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    It may be an issue of necessity, but it also forces balance. Palpatine / Sidious is at his most balanced in TPM. He is passive and active in all the right ways to accomplish his goals. But this fine balance begins slipping away the moment he gets into power . . .

    It's catharsis, but it also triggers imbalance. We see the balance eroding in AOTC for Palpatine / Sidious. He eggs Yoda and the other Jedi on in his office (earning him a suspicious glance from Yoda), and he later arcs up into his "Emperor" voice during the "Emergency Powers" speech. By the time of ROTJ, Palpatin / Sidious is so unbalanced it's untrue.

    Yeah. It's hard to impute every last detail and expect to get sensible answers. Still, Lucas may have been vaguely referring to this early left / right paradigm when he completed the Obi-Wan / Luke mirror in the FIRST movie with Palpatine / Anakin in the LAST.

    Hmmm. It's an enigma. BUT . . . When Obi-Wan speaks to Luke, he's being honest about the situation, for the good of Luke. When Palpatine speaks to Anakin, he's being DISHONEST about the situation, for the BAD of Anakin. In both cases, the mentor figures are using the truth, but one is being forthright while the other is being mendacious. A further anti-parallel concerns intution: where Luke has realised the truth for himself and is confronting Obi-Wan about it, Anakin is venturing furhter and further into blindness, even as Palpatine urges him to search his feelings. I don't know whether the fact that Palpatine is corporeal and Obi-Wan is spectral has anything to do with it, either. That seems like an interesting contrast in light of what Palpatine and Anakin talk about.
  15. OBIWAN-JR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2002
    star 6
    The answer to this is very simple.
    Anakin categorically knows.

    Palpatine is merely using the living Force [see quote below], and reading Anakin's mind.


    To me it is clear, from what Lucas shows us in the death of Padme/birth of Vader scene, that there is a symbiotic link between the Skywalkers (backed up by the scene in which Anakin waits in the Jedi Council chambers before making his decision to go to Palpatine).

    When Anakin/Vader says that "She was alive. I felt it!", it is my belief that he is talking about his connection with her in the death/birth scene, and that he therefore already knows the answer to his own question. As with Anakin as Vader many times after this (and arguably before becoming Vader), he is refusing to accept the truth, or refusing to see the truth that is staring him in in his face.

    I believe that, at a deep level, he already knows she is dead, and Palpatine is merely feeding off of Anakin's feelings on this matter through the Force, as he has done several times previously (the opera scene when he senses the truth about Anakin's spying mission; the Sith reveal scene where shows he has sensed Anakin's feelings about losing his wife to 'certain death').



    But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it, or not."

    ~ George Lucas

    Laurent Bouzereau, StarWars Episode I, The Making of The Phantom Menace
    />


    -JR :)

    />/>
  16. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I think you may be onto something here. So let's see:

    1) In the Anakin/Palpatine POV-case, Anakin is ignorant of the real situation. The POV argument is used by a current, living mentor, for the purpose of misleading him.

    2) In the Luke/Obi-Wan POV-case, Luke has found out about the truth already, from both Obi-Wan and Vader. The POV argument is used by a former, deceased mentor, for the purpose of being finally honest to him.

    So in the latter case Luke is encouraged to look at things from a different angle after the facts have been presented. While in the former, the POV argument is used to obfuscate the situation.

    Still, it is a curious situation that's putting Obi-Wan in a debatable position - after all, he has used the POV-technique the years before to withhold the truth about Luke's father. For better intention than Palpatine, to be sure, but using similar means as Palpatine.
  17. drg4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 4
    Apologies if this was discussed before; I haven't the time to review these twelve pages.

    "Wipe them out. All of them."

    Apart from being eminently quotable--a line that would've been right at home in TESB--this order is eminently evocative. Consider the juncture at which it's given. When last we left "Palpatine", he'd secured himself a nomination for the Chancellorship; yet, in a canny move by Lucas, his ascension, the true climax of the film, is left off-screen and to the imagination. By battle's prelude, though, there's little doubt Sidious has become master of the Senate. It's given away in these six words-- less of an answer than a mad solipsist's meditations (Maul and Gunray had awfully short shelf-lives, no?). Yahweh had His "Let there be light," and Sidious has this, marking prologue's end. From this point on, this edict will shape the narrative. No one escapes him; there's nothing he or his proxies won't pervert or destroy. Not republicanism. Not the Jedi Order. Not the dissidents. Not the transgalactic corporations. Not human relationships (Anakin/Padme, Luke/Owen/Beru, Han/Leia). Even the triumphal end to the Yavin Battle is offset by Alderaan.

    This is saga's beginning, and it gives me chills every time.
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I always liked: "When my new apprentice, Darth Vader arrives, he will take care of you". :)
  19. yodas_waiter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2006
    star 3
    Firstly, my hat off to all you who have contributed to an awesome thread. Some real great points have been brought up and has made me look at Palpatine in a very different way. Kudos to all =D= Now I'm going try, and fail at, contributing to this discussion


    Interesting interpretation. For me, it also sheds some new light on Palpatine's cry of "Power! Unlimited power!"

    At first, it might seem like the battle cry of the Sith, one that has been issued since Darth Bane and before that. But I think it's also worthwile to note that this is the last thing the guise of Palpatine the Politician says before having his lightning reflected back upon him and his true features revealed. When Sidious is revealed in all his glory, he forcefully shouts "Power! Unlimited power!" and that is what he truly represents. This scene is Sidious in his purest form.

    The guise of Palpatine never embodied unlimited power. He relied heavily on the (mostly unwitting) aid of others to carry out his grand plan. He needed the Trade Federation to invade Naboo, he needed Queen Amidala to call for a vote of no confidence, he needed Count Dooku to lead the Separatists and he needed the major corporations to make up the Separatists, he needed the Kaminoans and a clone army, he needed General Greivous to extend the war, he needed Anakin's and Padmé's relationship to push Anakin over the edge and he needed Anakin to complete the execution of his plan. Palpatine was handling a lot of middle-men and there were times when this could've failed (as Daultay Dofine at the start of TPM makes evident. Shame he didn't stand his ground).

    But Sidious needs no middle-men to carry out his wishes. He orders the Clones directly to execute Order 66 and he orders Darth Vader personally to march on the Jedi Temple/kill the Separatist Council.

    Palpatine was at the mercy of others, Sidious is power. Unlimited power.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same.
  21. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
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    There is a Lucas-blessed source to test the hypothesis that the multi-layered language of Palpatine gives the character and in turn the Saga appeal: the Robot Chicken skit when Palpatine discovers the Death Star has been destroyed. It is the inverse that proves the hypothesis of Cryogenic.
    QFT
    LFL has taken the SW nesting doll concept and made it real: http://www.firebox.com/product/1748

    Alas, I think they missed the mark by not having Palpatine's doll be the multiple incarnations of his prequel self.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But in the process of using the "certain point of view" crap against the Skywalkers, Obi-wan puts Luke in danger of succumbing to the Dark Side by lying to him whereas Palpatine puts himself in danger of being killed by Anakin once he revealed his true identity.
  23. yodas_waiter Jedi Knight

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    Of course, but it's worth noting that during the prequels, Palpatine has to disguise himself to be Sidious and in the OT, it's reversed. Palpatine and Sidious are two sides of the same person and it's interesting to see what happens when one disappears and the other takes over
  24. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

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    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    The line I love is Palpatine saying: "Your father will never turn from the Dark Side" - if you listen closely, his voice has this little tinge of 'hope' in it. I am not sure if that was planned or not, but it sounds like he is trying to convince himself and that may have been a hidden implication - or it could be I am imagining things, lol. I always thought of Anakin doing the same thing on Mustafar when talking to Obi-Wan next to the starship - he also speaks with sureness, but sounds like he is trying to desperately convince himself.
  25. mandragora Force Ghost

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    May 28, 2005
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    This is an interesting thought. I've been wondering myself to what extent Palpatine was unsure about Vader, and from what point on.

    "I wonder if your feelings on that matter are clear, Lord Vader."

    At that point, at the latest, he had some slight doubts. Any scenes before that suggesting worries on the part of the Emperor?

    And what about Luke - was he really that overconfident that he'd be able to turn Luke, or was that more of a facade?
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