Hidden meanings and messages in Palpatine lines throughout the Saga

Firstly, thanks for bringing out the full exchange between Palpatine and Anakin concerning Anakin being "the most gifted Jedi [Palpatine] has ever met". I can't believe I misquoted it. That's no good in a thread like this! It shows you how fragile our memories are...

Secondly, Padme's death. I have no immediate explanation to hand as to how Palpatine knew of Padme's death. But here are some thoughts:

1) Palpatine didn't categorically know and was making assumptions designed to get a rise from Anakin. He could have either retracted his statement later or kiled Padme, either directly (unlikely) or through one of his many agents (almost certainly), to keep it true.

2) He felt Padme's death, or Obi Wan and Yoda's reactions to it, through the Force. This would bring up the question of why Anakin had to ask about her fate (since he was obviously tied to her much more - and even on a metaphysical level as the ruminations sequence and cross-cutting of the birth scene and Vader's construction imply). It would also bring up the question of why Palpatine couldn't also sense the birth of the twins (though a possible answer here is that you have to have some physical familiarity with a person to sense/identify their Force presence).

3) Lucas made a mistake. Perhaps he committed the old fallacy (I'm sure there's an actual term for it) of placing himself in the position of the audience (i.e. we all knew what happened between Anakin and Padme and Padme's fate) instead of the position of the characters. Or maybe it originally made perfect sense but that got lost as Lucas cut the film together (he does imply on the DVD commentary that the birth/death scenes were told differently to begin with and heightened in the editing room).

Some unromantic answers there!

But this honestly could be a plot hole.

 

It's possible. Question is, could he even know where she is?

Could be possible. Maybe Anakin was still too dizzy from the operation to feel it. Other than that, maybe his force abilities really suffered in the accident. Luceno in Dark Lord wrote something about Anakin no longer having visions.
Why couldn't he feel the birth of the twins? Perhaps he felt Anakin's outrage more than Padme's death, and drew his conclusions. Perhaps babies aren't enough of a Force presence to feel them. Questions, questions...

That's the solution I like the least...

 

Palpatine was always talking like a jedi! Even from the beginning i thought he had force powers

 

To repeat/expand on what mandragora has previously said: I think most of Palpatine's statements - the best ones, anyway - have three levels:

1) A fallacious comment to the characters within the film(s) designed to further his image or provoke a particular action.

2) A fallacious comment to the audience without the film designed to be ironic.

3) A truthful comment to the audience about his plans and long-term goals and future events and outcomes (some of which elude even Palpatine).

The third item is the most contentious of the three. It requires at least a modicum of investment - and sometimes much more - from the viewer to figure out. This level, like the second, may not always exist, either. It's very subjective. Take Palpatine's line to Anakin at the end of TPM: "We shall watch your career with great interest". How does this fulfil the three levels? 1 = To make himself known to Anakin and engender feelings of admiration/trust. 2 = To provoke a laugh from audiences who are aware of his real intentions towards Anakin. 3 = A commentary on the future parasitic relationship between Sidious and Vader where Sidious "watches" over Vader's "career" with "great interest" (e.g. giving Vader orders, keeping track of his movements and even questioning his loyalties in ROTJ - "I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear...").

A much more obvious example is his "emergency powers" speech: "I love democracy. I love the Republic.". 1 = To paint himself as a benign leader who's reluctantly taking military action as a last resort. 2 = To provoke a laugh from audiences who are aware of his tyrannical actions prior to, during and after this film. 3 = A commentary on the gullibility of other people, the fallibility of democracy and the ease with which he has risen to power and will be able to form an empire. (I love this one - it forms part of Lucas' scathing attack on people who give up on democracy and the horrible consequences that arise from doing so).

On the other hand, however, a cigar is sometimes just a cigar. I don't think we can be remarkable all the time. Not every line in every Shakespeare play is blank verse (and even when a line is, it doesn't always have - or is not always intended to have - a rich tapestry of hidden meanings). I can't find much significance in a line like, "But General Grievous has escaped once again", for example. Palpatine - appropriately enough - seems to come out with lines to match the significance of a given situation; when something is unremarkable, the line is generally unremarkable; when it's something important in the saga, the line seems lofiter and sneakier. That is still good screenwriting. In fact, it may be BETTER screenwriting than the alternative - banality becomes a tool. I'll keep an open mind, though! Perhaps the most interesting thing Palpatine's servant ever said and the most interesting line in the saga: "Anything's possible!". How true.

 

I'm really wondering how many of these hidden meanings are intended, and to what extent some self-organisation process is working here. Some characters almost seem to take on a life of their own ...

One of the most interesting and significant lines in the Saga for me is an entirely innocent one: Palpatine's "I am depending on you." It's really one of the most important messages throughout the Saga - politicians as well as inner demons are nothing without our inability to see through what's going on and without our willingness to cooperate and letting ourselves be controlled by them.

 

It's funny how a single line, paired up with a certain perspective, can reveal so much. Whether those same meanings were intended or not is almost incidental.

In fact, Anakin's reaction to that line you just quoted is revealing: "For what? I dont understand." He wouldn't truly understand until the final minutes of the saga: "Only now, at the end, do you understand!".

 

Just found something else - I have to get back to this one:
"I realize all to well that additional security might be disruptive for you."

(1) The straightforward meaning; referring to disrupting Padme's privacy.
(2) Reference to the long term "disruptive" effect of assigning Anakin as a security guard to Padme, with disastrous consequences for both of them.
(3) fast forward to ROTS: "In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society?" ... "additional security might be disruptive for you" - this doesn't only hold true for Padme in the short and long run, but also for the entire society.

The more I think about it, the more I see a teaching function of the Palpatine character. I find it absolutely fascinating; it seems that Lucas actually has his puppet master, the major villain of the Saga, teaching the audience.

 

Well, it's time I put my money where my mouth is!

How well does my framework stand up?

I'm going to apply it to lines already discussed and find out:

?Your Majesty, if I am elected, I promise to put an end to corruption..."

1 = He's providing false assurance to Padme that the Senate and the Republic will be restored to its former glory. If something has to "end", then it implictly had to have had a particular "start", too. So it's a sneaky way of alluding to a restoration of an earlier time; of something that was once reality and has now become an ideal to get back to.

2 = We know that Palpatine will create a more ethically corrupt government than the one he's currently attempting to take power of.

3 = A comment about his intent to bring tyrannical order to the galaxy where the existing types of corruption will be a thing of the past.

"I will not let this republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two."

1 = False assurance to the people in his office that he will not allow the Republic to lose systems and fracture down the middle.

2 = We know that Palpatine has already set into motion the events which are about to do just that.

3 = A comment about his intent to ultimately transform the Republic into the Empire and unite and oppress the galaxy under one regime.

?I love democracy. I love the republic. The powers you gave me I will lay down when this crisis has abated.?

1 = False assurance to the Senate that he's a benign leader who can be trusted to do what is in the interests of the people/democracy.

2 = We know that Palpatine wants to do away with the existing system and use force/terror to oppress people across the galaxy.

3 = A comment about how he loves the ease with which he has come to power and the "backbone" of the Empire already being in place (i.e. the Republic). His job is only half as difficult with this many suckers around! In a sense, contrary to what Fader wrote, Palpatine did lie his powers down - for they were no longer emergency powers but an intrinsic part of his Empire. (Fader's interpretation still stands, however).

?The end of the war is near.?

1 = A statement to Grievous that the Clone Wars were about to finish. It becomes fallacious when you consider that he's planning on betraying Grievous to end the war in the Republic's favour. (Sidious is meant to be on the Separatist's side, remember - "Soon I will have a new apprentice..." is a false reassurance that the CIS will triumph when Sidious actually plans on using Anakin to defeat the Separatist movement and inaugurate the Empire).

2 = An ironic statement considering the saga is called "Star Wars" and there is already a second galactic civil war raging in the next movie.

3 = Possibly a comment indicating he didn't expect future conflicts. But that doesn't seem to match Palpatine's innate intelligence (surely he's not that naive?) or his assembly of a fully-trained clone army to protect his Empire - or the Death Star, for that matter. It might be taken to mean that he expected all forms of conflict and resistance, which had divided the galaxy for some time, to end eventually (which syncs up with his remark to Vader in ROTJ: "Soon the Rebellion will be crushed!").

?Once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy ? and we shall have peace.?

1 = Statement to Anakin about the short-term resolution of the Clone Wars designed to bolster Anakin's faith in Palpatine before killing younglings and other war crimes.

2 = Ironic remark given that "peace" requires the slaughtering of millions of innocent people an

 

Great work, cryogenic!


"It is upsetting to me that the Council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents."

1= reinforcing Anakin's conviction that the council is treating him unfairly.
2= ironic statement concerning Anakin's readyness to become a master at that time - Anakin's lack of maturity must have been obvious to him.
3= truthful statement with respect to the overall story - it is indeed bewildering that the council doesn't seem to realize the significance of Anakin, or at least doesn't take the danger seriously.

"I am depending on you."

1= needs him as a personal representative in the council.
2= needs him as a bait to induce the Jedi to make Anakin spy on him; possibly also an ironic comment because for saving Padme, Anakin is actually "depending" on him.
3= truthful statement with respect to the overall story - as stated before, neither politicians nor inner demons can gain any power at all without us letting ourselves be controlled by them.

"To be the eyes, ears and voice of the republic."

1= refers to Anakin's immediate role as a representative on the council
2= refers to Anakin's role as a spy for the council, as well as Anakin's future role of being the eyes, ears and voice of the Empire. Additionally, it has an implication with respect to the Vader suit - after his accident he's given new eyes, new ears and a new voice by Palpatine.
3= truthful statement about the need of any dictatorship for having certain people who observate and indoctrinate society.

For the sake of completeness, transferring from the essay thread:

"To be realistic, Your Majesty, I think we're going to have to accept federation control for the time being."

with respect to 2: 2 might actually also be 3 - "we're going to have to accept federation control for the time being." He doesn't say "we have to accept being controlled by the federation" but "we have to accept federation control". You could just as well take that statement to mean that for the time being he has to accept that he has to control the Federation in order to achieve his plans.


Your framework seems to hold, Cryogenic - with the qualification that on closer look, there seem to be even more than three meanings in a number of these lines.

 

The jedi must have been rely blinded because plaps lines were so evil!

 

Nice contributions!

My framework is just one approach. I kinda like it if only because it takes into account no less than three levels, and with a bit of work, seems to be applicable to every line.

Time to try a challening one:

"I must say... you're here sooner than expected!"

1 = Cordial greeting and mock surprise that Mace and the other Jedi have arrived to report to him sooner than expected.

2 = Ironic jab at the slowness of the Jedi in working out his identity and taking action, perhaps? (Technically, they never worked out his identity, either: Anakin told them).

3 = Someone help me out here. I'm at a loss. Perhaps this is a "teaching" line, as you have philosophically suggested, mandragora. Perhaps Mace and the others should have found a way to play Palpatine at his own game before rushing in? By lighting up their sabres, and by Mace getting angry when Anakin arrives, they're playing right into his hands - just as Luke almost did when he beat Vader to the ground and chopped off his hand. Impertience and impatience, which are closely related to anger and aggression, are always punished in the Star Wars saga.

Now... here's a great strand. To be a great teacher, you must first be possessed of great knowledge. I think I could build a website around that theme with respect to Palpatine. It might be worth pursuing in the future.

 

I think both of your interpretations are quite likely. It seems that there are a few lines, especially in ROTS, where we have him commenting on the Jedi's slowness and blindness and even expressing a certain amount of disbelief on it, like:

"Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?"
"I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Jedi council if they wouldn't select you for this assignment."
"It is upsetting to me that the council doesn't seem to fully appreciate your talents."
"I must say you're here sooner than expected."

Do you think it's possible that he finds it, I don't know exactly how to put it, kind of "insulting" that those supposedly very powerful and force sensitive Jedi Masters, members of the order that had defeated the Sith 1000 years ago, now prove to be as slow and blind as that?

A website collecting certain not so frequently discussed themes relating to Palpatine, like the teaching theme, or the question of his function in a Jungian sense, would be a very interesting project. Perhaps if we work together, we can discover a few more secrets concerning Palpatine

 

Good quotations.

It pays to look at different parts of the tapestry, comparing it to other parts, then the whole, then back to individual parts and strands.

The war one to Yoda is great. He knows that Yoda is always reserved about the future - and that Yoda finds it impossible to see with the Dark Side clouding things. Ha! The arrogance of the Jedi Order and its relationship with the Republic are vital elements to understanding Palpatine and vice versa. I finally understood why everything was the way it was in TPM and AotC when I saw RotS. Although I'm sure this was true for many people, for those of us who like to look a little deeper, it was even more rewarding!

It's a distinct possibility.

When one is seeking "revenge", there has to be a strong motivational factor there - of being cheated, ridiculed and wronged. If, however, Palpatine does find it insulting, then he's already learnt to temper those feelings and channel them correctly long ago! Palpatine did all of his learning before the Star Wars saga began. Before Episode I. Yes, sometimes, he might have to adapt to a given situation, but in terms of sussing people out (even someone like Padme who he might have slightly miscalculated), and certainly in terms of sussing himself out, he'd already done all the homework. Palpatine might not be vain - but he spent one hundred years or so looking in the mirror and "grooming" himself before strolling onto the catwalk. The only learning he still has to do comes at the end of ROTJ. And it technically isn't learning when Vader hurls him down the shaft so much as punishment - for learning is a two-way street; one has to be open to new information in order for it to be absorbed and considered "learnt"; Palpatine clearly wasn't.

(OK, OK... I'm clearly being a little too poetic there. Lucas' point is: everyone has more to learn and should at least remain open to the possibility of being wrong. It's already been established that Palpatine's final lines to Luke - "Only now, at the end, do you understand!" - are also about Vader and himself).

I pledge myself to your... wait. Yes. Good idea! I am sure we will discover more.

 

He shows an impressive amount of self-control, that much is clear, whether it is about Padme throwing a monkey in his plans, or Anakin's gullibility, or Obi-Wan making moronic statements like "Sith Lords are our speciality" - he always manages to keep a straight face.

But I thought he was meant to be in his early 50's by the time of TPM?

 

I'm assuming he could be much older at that time. It doesn't mean he actually is. But I wouldn't be surprised if he was significantly more than he appeared. It's consistent with who the character is, how he behaves and what he represents.

 

Now... here's a great strand. To be a great teacher, you must first be possessed of great knowledge. I think I could build a website around that theme with respect to Palpatine. It might be worth pursuing in the future.


Theres no doubt about it. Despite his evil, he is highly intelligent and extremely wise and is a teacher. Luke Skywalkers' last piece of training comes from the Emporer, of which Luke becomes a Jedi.

 

OS databank holocron mentions that he was born in the year 82 BBY on Naboo, as well as Wikipedia. Then again, they state that the archives have been purged with respect to his biography; maybe it's possible that he manipulated the birth dates as well.

This is a very interesting thought. I've thought about Luke's teachings with respect to Vader. When Luke is leaving Dagobah in TESB, Yoda says that his training isn't yet complete. When he returns to Dagobah in ROTJ, Yoda says that he doesn't require any more training. Now, while some have argued that in between TESB and ROTJ Luke has received training by Force ghost Obi-Wan on Tatooine, it might also be possible that his first confrontation with Vader in TESB taught him what was left to learn. You've made the point now that Luke has as well received training by the Emperor. It would seem then that Luke, contrary to all other Jedi, has been trained alternatingly by Jedi and Sith teachers. Light side fans will probably crucify me for introducing the possibility that this may be the reason why he alone was able to outgrow the Jedi as well as the Sith.

 

Although it is interesting, I find it more in the lines of Luke saw the flaws and errors of the way of the sith, and hence he learnt from them. That's not to say that he learnt anything Yoda and OBW had not told him. Rather he experienced it first hand. He saw the evil of the Empire, the treacherous and mischevious nature of it. He saw the corruption and how the Emperor's real power lay in fear. Vader feared confronting him. Luke, as a good Jedi, was perhaps not afraid to die. When Vader saw this and realized this, he also learnt from Luke.
The most important lesson I think Luke learnt from Sideous and Vader was that he must never become one of them.

 

Although the first hand demonstration was clearly important, I think there is more to these confrontations with Vader and Sidious than just experiencing the evil first hand. Especially Sidious literally taught him how evil is able to achieve control. "You make yourself my servant". "Strike me down, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete." And there's more - he taught him that Luke was on his own in this psychological battle. "Your faith in your friends is yours." Only in the end when Luke thought the rebel fleet's defeat was imminent, when he had given up on his friends, as well as Leia, when he had given up on everyone and everything that was important to him, when he stood there alone and was prepared to die rather than convert to the dark side Sidious had truely lost. Up to then, his faith in and feelings for his friends had indeed been his weakness, because it was a possible instrument for manipulating. In essense it's the same kind of lesson Yoda had taught him, but Sidious taught it to him very clearly by means of first hand demonstration, and the way he himself was taught by Plagueis: "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you..." --- it amounts to "confront your worst fears, and let go of your attachments." Not too different from what the Jedi are teaching - indeed the Sith and the Jedi are similar in many, many ways.

But Luke aside, in general there's an awful lot that can be learnt from some of those "teaching lines". Whether intended or not, some of them are life lessons really, life lessons that many if not most people don't manage to learn throughout their entire life. The "I am depending on you" is one of them, along with the "with each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant". It's all about individual responsibility - no-one takes power over us, as William Edgars put it in B5, they depend on us giving them power. We make ourselves the servant.

Another one, which I find equally important, is the "additional security might be disruptive for you." How often are we sacrificing degrees of freedom and forfeitting chances and opportunities because we are simply afraid and prefer a safer and more secure situation, and how often do we put up with adverse and destructive circumstances and life situations due to considerations of security.

I'm going to take a closer look on the dialogue again; it could be an interesting addition to this thread if I could find other life lessons taught by Palpatine.

 

Good idea!

Nice catches so far.

The powers that you give to me... -- AOTC

Why do people give their freedoms away? People should be more autonomous, more intelligent and more world weary. It is irresponsbile of us to grant individuals more power and more authority than they should morally/emotionally/politically wield.

You must choose! -- ROTS

Indeed we must! Life is about choice. But it's also about making intelligent choices unburdened by selfish emotions - rather than horrific ones made on the spur of the moment to please ourselves.

I don't understand.
With time and training, Ani, you will. -- Anakin and Qui Gon, TPM

When you are calm, at peace, you will know. -- Yoda, TESB

Only now, at the end, do you understand! -- Palpatine, ROTJ

Anakin and Luke's training comes full circle here. They both understand what it means to be at peace; to hear the will of the Force speaking through their midi-chlorians; to surrender themselves to the delicate symbiosis fractured horribly throughout the course of six films and two generations of conflict and destruction. Father and son are also entering into a unique symbiosis of their own - and the man who has worked so dilligently for six films to break symbiotic relationships will now be undone, through his own actions, by the very thing he sought to manipulate and destroy.

 

Sorry to "double post", but I've got a bit more for us all to chew on...

How about the things people say directly to or about Palpatine? What kind of irony and depth do they lend the saga? Two faves:

The Chancellor is not a bad man, Obi Wan. -- Anakin, ROTS

Reminds me of people calling Iago, who Palpatine resembles in many ways, "honest" and "good" in Othello.

I pray you will bring sanity and compassion back to the Senate. -- Padme, TPM

This line was always destined to be ironic - but Lucas made it absolutely hilarious after deciding to show Palpatine hurling pieces of the Senate in a crazed frenzy at Yoda. Brilliant!

 

I found one similar to the "federation control" one yesterday. Here it is:

"A tragedy has occurred that started right here and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the trade federation."

Now, who is it that is "oppressing" the trade federation? Clearly Sidious has engulfed his entire planet in the process of oppressing the federation. This is even more funny if you watch the look of accusation towards the Federation representatives on Ian's face - and then their reaction: "This is outrageous! There is no proof!" (well, that's the problem with all of Sidious' dealings, isn't it?) -- "I object to the Senator's statement! We recomment a commission be sent to Naboo to ascertain the truth!" It would indeed have been very helpful if at that point they had found out the truth

I'm sure there are lots of them. Especially Padme is very talented in these. There are at least three others:
"Senator, this is your arena." -- fast forward to Sidious fighting Yoda in this "arena" in ROTS.
"Congratulations on your election, Chancellor." -- fast forward to "this is how liberty dies..." in ROTS.
From the deleted scenes:
"Vote down this security measure which is nothing less than a declaration of war. Does anyone here want that? I cannot believe they do." ... It's quite clear who wants war here, isn't it?

 

I noticed that when I watched AotC. Praise makes Anakin humble and criticism makes him defensive. Obi-Wan would have had a much easier time time training Anakin and been far more successful if he's understood that. It's also a prime example of how Palpatine understands people and how to motivate them and how he uses that understanding to manipulate them into doing what he wants.

 

Although the first hand demonstration was clearly important, I think there is more to these confrontations with Vader and Sidious than just experiencing the evil first hand. Especially Sidious literally taught him how evil is able to achieve control. "You make yourself my servant". "Strike me down, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete." And there's more - he taught him that Luke was on his own in this psychological battle. "Your faith in your friends is yours." Only in the end when Luke thought the rebel fleet's defeat was imminent, when he had given up on his friends, as well as Leia, when he had given up on everyone and everything that was important to him, when he stood there alone and was prepared to die rather than convert to the dark side Sidious had truely lost. Up to then, his faith in and feelings for his friends had indeed been his weakness, because it was a possible instrument for manipulating. In essense it's the same kind of lesson Yoda had taught him, but Sidious taught it to him very clearly by means of first hand demonstration, and the way he himself was taught by Plagueis: "Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you..." --- it amounts to "confront your worst fears, and let go of your attachments." Not too different from what the Jedi are teaching - indeed the Sith and the Jedi are similar in many, many ways.

Although I agree with you to a large part that Palpatine taught Luke, I think Luke more readily acquired the knowledge and wisdom. Remember that Palpatine didn't tell Luke anything Yoda didn't. Yoda told Luke on Dagobah that he would not need his weapons - could very well refer to the future. Yoda also told Luke to let go of his friends. He also told him to be wary of the Emperor's powers. As we know, Sideous' foremost strength was his manipulative skills. The Jedi and Sith are much alike, as we can see from Yoda's and Sideous' teaching. The only difference is that they are opposite But as we know, there's a fine line between love and hate. Look at Anakin...

 

It's quite simple. Padme's death was announced . . . and Palpatine told Anakin about it. Whether he knew how Padme really died has been left unanswered.