Hidden meanings and messages in Palpatine lines throughout the Saga

It doesn't seem significant, funny though.
I do recall those discussions, that's an interesting coincidence. That was probably a little too meaningful for this example

Yeah, it's really the same thing, that was just how I described it.

 

hey guys...

can't be bothered to browse the whole thread now...

"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural."

you might settle a dispute with this.. any hidden meanings or significances here?

 

1 = A lie to Anakin who believes he can use the Dark Side to gain a metaphysical alchemy to control matters of life and death.

2 = An ironic remark about the true nature of the Dark Side when one considers the "ability" of Palpatine to deform himself into something hideous and the "ability" of Anakin to be kept alive inside a robotic suit.

3 = A stab at the Jedi ("Death is a natural part of life") and a literal "teaching" comment about the folly of embracing our "dark sides" and using aggression and violence to change the world for the better.

 

Interesting.

I like the use of the word "pathway". Not a hidden meaning, but it's a provacative way of explaining it.
"Unnatural" to me has always implied ressurecting a person, or unnatural long life. Think Sidious sitting in his chair in ROTJ. It looks like he's been drinking coffee for twenty years straight.

 

If for twenty years not to sleep you decide, look as good you will not.

 

I have never thought of Owen as a mentor like PT Obi-Wan Kenobi - but I think you're right. Perhaps all of these connections in part are there to point out the "family thing": Maybe Obi-Wan has realized that what went wrong with Anakin was in part due to the fact that the Jedi never succeeded in being Anakin's family - whereas Palpatine did. Therefore the more fatherly, in this sense more Palpatine-like approach in dealing with Luke. And it seems indeed that Luke accepted Ben as a mentor quite readily.

 

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i was more sort of going for the literal meaning.
and we don't know if it's a lie, do we. so, i don't think you can just pose it like that.

 

I agree on the point that we don't know it's a lie. Actually I think the whole thing amounts to some kind of Reiki technique of life energy transmission and in the Mustafar scene we see Sidious doing just this.

So I'm gonna give it a try myself:

1) A statement to induce Anakin to develop more distrust towards the Jedi.
2) An ironic comment to the audience who knows that this turn to a "life saving" practice will actually lead to Padme's death.
3) A truthful comment on the "unnatural", namely oppressive/dictatorial fate the dark side rulership will bring for the galaxy.
4) A truthful statement referring to the fact that black magic practices indeed are a path to "unnatural" abilities. The only question is whether they are compatible with physical and mental sanity.

 

On the contrary: because we don't know the degree of truthfulness in the statement, that's EXACTLY the reason I ran it through my framework. mandragora has come up with a similar interpretation. There's no way of knowing. Palpatine puts a spin on everything. It's not clear if he was actually reviving/soothing/healing Anakin or not.

 

Great thread everyone, especially the Palpatine/Ben and Obi-Wan/Owen inverse relationship ideas!

 

Sorry, I don't understand - you wrote "1 = A lie to Anakin who believes he can use the Dark Side to gain a metaphysical alchemy to control matters of life and death."

The ROTS novel is quite explicit in this respect: "The Sith Lord lowered the limbless man tenderly to the cool ground above, and laid his hand across the cracked and blackened mess that once had been his brow, and he set his will upon him.
Live, Lord Vader. Live, my apprentice. Live."

 

Wow, that's a fairly solid reference. I forgot about that, to be honest.
You could argue that it isn't literal I suppose, but it seems that at least in the novel he is physically regenerating Anakin.

 

Relative to darth_frared's request, your response is similar to mine, I think. Else I'm not grasping what she's asking for at all.

That's the novel. Palpatine doesn't physically move Anakin in the film. I don't know if it's intentional or not, but if you watch really carefully, I think I'm right in saying his hand doesn't actually touch his forehead, either. And, even if we do take the novel as canon (despite obvious clashes), "[setting] his will upon him" is an incredibly vague statement. There's nothing explicit about that. The word "will", first and foremost, refers to mental determination; not physical; let alone metaphysical. So... is Palpatine mentally willing Anakin to live, is he saying a kind of prayer over his body, is he transferring "life energy" or what? There's no substance. The novel seems very non-committal here.

 

Well I'm afraid this is getting out of hand - but since I'm an avocatinal teacher for chinese qi gong I feel an urge to comment on this.

In reiki or qi gong or similar techniques, there is no need for touching - it doesn't make a difference whether you actually touching or whether you're just very close to touching.

The "setting one's will" is the indispensible ingredient for such techniques to work. Without mental determination nothing will be achieved, it is the instrument for channelling and focussing energy. In principle, all things you mention, mentally willing him to live, praying, transferring life energy, are one and same story. If you have access to the chi (or Force) spring and the ability to focus this power through mental concentration you will succeed, no matter if you employ physical touch (or close to touch), prayers, or sheer willpower in the attempt. The physical touch or hand position close to touching is more an aid for the healer that facilitates the focussing than a neccessity.

 

It's still just one interpretation (i.e. your interpretation) of an interpretation (i.e. Matt Stover's interpretation/reinterpretation). Have at it. I just don't go along with that. There's no moving of the body in the film and no willing (no explicit willing, at least). The film is somewhat ambiguous here and open to interpretation - but it's too ephemeral for me to really believe in one thing or another. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander: whatever Palpatine is doing to Anakin is probably whatever Obi Wan was doing in ANH to Luke. In which case...

*huge huff of breath*

Palpatine might be strong in the Living Force. Qui Gon was the first Jedi we encounter in the saga who is; Yoda and Obi Wan later become his apprentices and get to a similar stage. But who's to say that a Sith cannot also possess that ability (and, as with all things Sith, use it selfishly for their own ends)? Palpatine seems to intimately know the plight of many beings - especially Anakin. This is where your chi analogy comes into it:

From http://www.qui-gonline.org/features/naming.htm

The first part was easy: qi gong (pronounced "chee goong") is an Eastern art of qi (also chi or ki) life energy manipulation. Qui-Gon is a master of the living Force, by name as well as by reputation.

If Qui Gon is a master of the Living Force and has the concept of chi built into his name, then might not all other masters of the Living Force be regarded the same way (divides between selfishness and compassion aside)? It seems possible that Palpatine might be able to "spread the love" - the Palpatine way, of course. But there's a lot of conjecture to get there. And, even if Obi Wan is doing something similar with Luke, Qui Gon never shows any direct healing ability.

 

But the Sith (and the saga) are so much cooler if the powers Palpatine speaks of are real.

Unfortunately, that's my whole argument

 

I think it's actually cooler that Anakin went to the Dark Side for a lie. We'll never know. But I'm working on a montage based on Palpatine's "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis" which sees this scene in the context mandragora describes.

 

Fair enough - though frankly I have difficulty in understanding why people think this healing stuff is such a big deal. We have thousands of healers on this planet who can do it and none of them is capable of throwing force lightning or hurling senate pods. It takes a lot more to do things like that. For one of the most powerful Force users in the GFFA sustaining Anakin's life for a few minutes until the medics arrive should be a comparably minor feat.

I think people are confusing sustaining life energy and helping heal an injured person for a limited amount of time with achieving immortality.

Of course - I've never said a Jedi master could not do it. As I said, compared to what we have seen them doing otherwise it shouldn't be a big deal.

Strange that Anakin didn't know about it - but then again, "I know there are things about the Force they are not telling me."

There's a lot more to the Chi analogy - this is Mantak Chia describing the stages of Taoist inner alchemy, the art of cultivating body, mind and spirit through qi gong practices (in "Awaken healing light", pp. 3 ff., published in 1993).

The first stages are:

1 Healing the physical body (dealing with physical illness and weakness)

2 Developing the energy body (dealing with emotional problems)

3 Forming the spirit body ("planting the seed for immortality"), which are four substages. On the first one he writes:
"Many masters who attained this level of the immortal body were able to transform the material into the immaterial and transfer it into the spirit body. At the moment of death, they were able to transfer their consciousness, their energy, and the physical elements of their bodies up with them into the spirit body, although even this level is not yet the true immortal body."

On the 2nd substage he writes:
"At this stage of practice, we learn to digest increasingly higher-grade energies of the Higher Self and Universal Forces from the sun, mooon, planets, stars and galaxies and from the mind of the Tao itself.... which leads to experience of the inner worlds of spirit. Fear of death is vanquished as we become familiar with life beyond physicality."

On the 3rd substage he writes - and now please make sure you're seated safely:
"At this level one transfers all physical essence into the immortal body. When all the body's material elements are transformed into subtle Chi, what remains is known as the "rainbow body". When a master of this level leaves this world, there is nothing left of the physical body but nails and hair."

And - please remain seated - on the 4th substage he writes:
"At this level, death is transcended entirely. One can simply transform

 

Er... right.

This is where we part ways.

I appreciate you've done a lot of reading in this subject - but I happen to think it's all BUNK. Science is my light in this world. Everything else is fun and even profound when taken metaphorically (like Star Wars) but dangerous when taken literally. I'll leave it there.

 

Oh, I've got about 50 books on chinese qigong and related subjects here and I've even read most of them quite thoroughly. I've no intention to try and convince you to take it literally. But even if you take it metaphorically, like Star Wars, in this framework the healing stuff when compared to generating force lightning and throwing senate pods is a minor feat.

 

I'm not sure it is.

We never see anyone explicitly healing anyone else. The two instances - Palpatine/Anakin and Obi Wan/Luke - are very vague. I always assumed that Obi Wan was checking Luke's lifesigns but not actually healing him in any way. It seems to be the same with Palpatine. He blurts out, "He's still alive!", but just after that, Anakin lies still, and it seems reasonable to conclude that Palpatine was checking he hadn't just expired. But your interpretations are certainly valid. I just don't see it the same way.

I'm happy for you on the books. I'd like to get to grips with the subject myself one day. But I see it like Campbell saw all these things: allegorical/mythical. That's a fascinating and rich strand all on its own. I don't think I'll ever be convinced to take claims of healing, levitation and whatever else literally.

 

So do you think the parallels to the Chia quotations are unintended? I find that very hard to believe.

 

I think there's some vague intent there. Lucas was aware of that area of philosophy/meditation/religion on some level (be it consciously or otherwise) and his mind told him to have Obi Wan placing his hand on Luke's forehead; then, because of his "cubist" approach to the saga, he felt it appropriate to add a parallel with Palpatine tending to Anakin. That's the long and short of it for me. I do think he has placed some ambiguity there on purpose this time around; especially when one considers Palpatine's story of Darth Plagueis. It's meant to raise these kind of thoughts. But I choose not to believe that Palpatine was literally healing Anakin.

 

I've been wondering whether Lucas even got to know Chia - who used to live and travel the US until he left for Thailand in 1994 (and who is quite famous for his teachings). Chia always signs his books with the greeting "may the chi be with you."

There's another taoist writer with references to Star Wars in his works - Kosta Danaos. In "The magus of Java" he tells an ancient chinese legend about duels of the old masters - this is a part of it: "Lim moved like a whirlwind. He kicked backward, hit Liao, and knocked him completely through the wall to land in the garden outside, where he lost consciousness. At the same time he hit Assam three times from five yards away with energy blasts generated from the center of his palm." [...] "How? I mean, he was at a fairly high level when we fought, but nowhere close to this." "Hatred fueled his training."

So we have disappearing Jedi bodies, Force ghosts, one Qui-Gon teaching the training, and Force lightning fueled by hatred. Interesting, isn't it?